LGBT Agenda & 1st Amend.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

Yet, he has. And it’s been duly noted. And, above you admit that the ‘root cause’ must be struck at. [/quote]

The ‘root cause’ must be addressed.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

So, did we need really need the previous thread questioning religious reluctance and outright opposition to this?
The feigning of neutral innocence, where the religious were just imagining the movement was directed at their ‘bullshit.’ Of course there was an unspoken agenda (up to this point). There has always been one. [/quote]

Of course I understand. You guys are against the normalization of homosexuality in society.

The ‘bullshit’ he is referring to is the bigoted belief that homosexuality is immoral as written in the Bible. A bigoted belief doesn’t deserve protection because it’s part of someone’s religious beliefs.

So yes, I understand why you oppose this, but no I don’t agree that the crux of his speech was inappropriate only his wording.[/quote]

Oh, it was very inappropriate. See, people are capable of believing something is wrong/immoral without bullying. In fact, they can oppose bullying. My priest is a faaar more capable anti-bullying advocate than Savage. So, instead of an agree-to-disagree position on homosexuality, taking the opportunity to convince EVERYBODY to be more vigilant about bullying, he went right after authentic Christian belief. Basically, he took a bullying speech, turned people off, and made it into a rant about orthodox Christianity. But that was the goal, anyways.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

You realize the root cause of anti-gay bigotry in North America is the Bible right?

[/quote]

I disagree entirely. Do you really believe that when homosexuals are assaulted for being gay that it is church goers of any denomination who would be the likely culprips? Nonsense. It would be some young, male heterosexual thugs - and it happens rarely.

2:43 in the video: “…it’s funny as someone on the receiving end of beatings(his emphasis) that are justified by the bible…”

Right, this guy gets bashed by Christians quoting Leviticus and Romans all the time. Sure, that makes sense. We need laws against the bible and Christians.

[quote]therajraj wrote:
I do think he should’ve used better language, using the words “bullshit” and “pansy ass” is inappropriate.[/quote]

I guess you can only hear that you are a limp wristed that will burn ion hell for so long.

I also think that it appropriate to point out that some people are extremely selective when it comes to quoting Leviticus and if those same people walk out of a speech that reminds them of that “pansy ass” would not have been my reaction.

Fucking hypocritical stone age barbarian cowards would probably have been more like it.

Just to drive the point home.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

The speaker was Dan Savage[/quote]

A rather sleazy individual.

[/quote]

But not in this video. [/quote]

Always.
[/quote]

Well, that he hid it surprisingly well in this video.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

The speaker was Dan Savage[/quote]

A rather sleazy individual.

[/quote]

But not in this video. [/quote]

Always.
[/quote]

Well, that he hid it surprisingly well in this video.

[/quote]

Oh, I’m sure for your sensibilities it was no worse than a typical dinner conversation.

Who is the coward? The coward used subterfuge to turn an anti-bullying platform into his personal vendetta. You play the wrong movie on the screen, I’m walking out of your theater. Especially if you insult me in the process.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Who is the coward? The coward used subterfuge to turn an anti-bullying platform into his personal vendetta. You play the wrong movie on the screen, I’m walking out of your theater. Especially if you insult me in the process.[/quote]

Ah, it is bullying to point out the bully.

That is a rather effeminate, dare I say it, pansy ass reaction.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Who is the coward? The coward used subterfuge to turn an anti-bullying platform into his personal vendetta. You play the wrong movie on the screen, I’m walking out of your theater. Especially if you insult me in the process.[/quote]

Ah, it is bullying to point out the bully.

That is a rather effeminate, dare I say it, pansy ass reaction.[/quote]

No, it’s the civilized reaction. He hijacked, they left. Weep more ‘effeminate’ tears.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

I disagree entirely. Do you really believe that when homosexuals are assaulted for being gay that it is church goers of any denomination who would be the likely culprips? Nonsense. It would be some young, male heterosexual thugs - and it happens rarely.
[/quote]

I specifically said the ROOT cause for a reason. Christianity has completely pervaded our culture and has done much to shape our society. It would be silly to think that this issue starts and stops with those who attend church today.

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
No one should have to rent their property to anyone they don’t want to. That’s about as slippery a slope as I’ve ever seen, and twice as steep. [/quote]

Interesting. Does that include racial discrimination in your opinion?

I know and you know that you don’t know how to take your shoes off when you come inside, so it is a relevant question. Further down that slippery slope might come the burakumin. [/quote]

No one should have to rent their property to anyone they don’t want to.

No qualifications.

You know that I am not a racist. But that doesn’t matter. If I don’t want to hire somebody, or to take on a tenant in one of my properties, created or procured with my own capital, by the sweat of my own brow, then no one, ever, should force me to take on anyone I do not want to. My reasons for not hiring or taking that person on, racist or otherwise, are beside the point.

Yeah, I understand the implications, but I think that, one the whole. society would work a whole lot better if we just stuck to my rule and let people work things out for themselves.
[/quote]

Interesting. I hadn’t realized how “libertarian” your views are on this point. I think I saw Rand Paul arguing something similar. Eh, given the history of the US, I’ll have to disagree but I understand where you are coming from.

[/quote]

Sorry, I have been completely tied up for the past week and am just now getting to this. Have not read the rest of the thread, either, so this may have been covered, but…

I actually agree with you more than I disagree. I just have a different idea as to the way in which social fairness and equality should be achieved. Forcing businesses and individuals to do things they don’t want to do, to hire and let on people they would prefer not to, is NOT the way to achieve that fairness. It may carry the veneer of effectiveness in the short term, because you are creating a plastic replica of the society would would prefer to have, but it is not real, and there are consequences that stem from doing so. We can see them now, easily.

Indeed, this very case (the OP) is itself a consequence of deciding that the government could “force” equality and fairness, and an example of how slippery the decline really is. We had one interest group, one time, because we needed to correct a problem. And then the other races also needed to be included. For fairness sake. And now we have a group that defines itself based upon sexual preference demanding access to private property where they are not wanted. Basing their demands upon the same basis.

Do you really think it will stop here? Why on earth should it? Should there be a line? If so, how do you draw it?

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Who is the coward? The coward used subterfuge to turn an anti-bullying platform into his personal vendetta. You play the wrong movie on the screen, I’m walking out of your theater. Especially if you insult me in the process.[/quote]

Ah, it is bullying to point out the bully.

That is a rather effeminate, dare I say it, pansy ass reaction.[/quote]

No, it’s the civilized reaction. He hijacked, they left. Weep more ‘effeminate’ tears.
[/quote]

Thats like saying that it would be a hijack if someone mentions the KKK during an anti racism rally.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Who is the coward? The coward used subterfuge to turn an anti-bullying platform into his personal vendetta. You play the wrong movie on the screen, I’m walking out of your theater. Especially if you insult me in the process.[/quote]

Ah, it is bullying to point out the bully.

That is a rather effeminate, dare I say it, pansy ass reaction.[/quote]

No, it’s the civilized reaction. He hijacked, they left. Weep more ‘effeminate’ tears.
[/quote]

Thats like saying that it would be a hijack if someone mentions the KKK during an anti racism rally.

[/quote]

Ok. So no anti-bullying cooperation. Have fun.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

I disagree entirely. Do you really believe that when homosexuals are assaulted for being gay that it is church goers of any denomination who would be the likely culprips? Nonsense. It would be some young, male heterosexual thugs - and it happens rarely.
[/quote]

I specifically said the ROOT cause for a reason. Christianity has completely pervaded our culture and has done much to shape our society. It would be silly to think that this issue starts and stops with those who attend church today.
[/quote]

I disagree that religion is the root cause. As we both know the bible was written by man with no influence from some imaginary being. Any ideas against homosexuality prior to the bible were the ideas of man, it just may have been the first time it was formally written in text which is referenced for guidelines in morality.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Who is the coward? The coward used subterfuge to turn an anti-bullying platform into his personal vendetta. You play the wrong movie on the screen, I’m walking out of your theater. Especially if you insult me in the process.[/quote]

Ah, it is bullying to point out the bully.

That is a rather effeminate, dare I say it, pansy ass reaction.[/quote]

No, it’s the civilized reaction. He hijacked, they left. Weep more ‘effeminate’ tears.
[/quote]

Thats like saying that it would be a hijack if someone mentions the KKK during an anti racism rally.

[/quote]

Ok. So no anti-bullying cooperation. Have fun.[/quote]

Well no, there was also no anti racism cooperation with the Klan.

While I do not believe that discrimination against homosexuals is a exclusively Christian vice it is put forward as a tenet of faith by a lot of Christians and you know that.

You also now that the refer to Leviticus quite frequently when doing it while ignoring pretty much the rest of that book and you know that too.

There can be no middle ground when it comes to this.

Also, this whole anti bullying stuff is nonsense.

The correct response to “all gays will burn in hell” is “you will too, you two types of garment wearing whore”.

Finally, Pink Pistols, the ultimate anti bullying campaign:

[quote]orion wrote:

Finally, Pink Pistols, the ultimate anti bullying campaign:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_Pistols[/quote]

Schools are gun free zones.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

Finally, Pink Pistols, the ultimate anti bullying campaign:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_Pistols[/quote]

Schools are gun free zones.
[/quote]

Yeah, but if you get bullied long enough you can simmer for years in the knowledge that you can get the gun as soon as you are old enough.

I would think that this was food for thought for all aspiring bullies too.

If all else fails, find out what Leviticus commands the shithead in question is breaking and organize your own rally, including Bible verses and all.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

Finally, Pink Pistols, the ultimate anti bullying campaign:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_Pistols[/quote]

Schools are gun free zones.
[/quote]

Yeah, but if you get bullied long enough you can simmer for years in the knowledge that you can get the gun as soon as you are old enough.[/quote]

Not sure what this accomplishes with regards to school bullying.

School shootings haven’t ended bullying. Armed citizens haven’t ended assault.

If he’s a gentile, it certainly wouldn’t be anything like the wearing of two different kinds of garment.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

I disagree entirely. Do you really believe that when homosexuals are assaulted for being gay that it is church goers of any denomination who would be the likely culprips? Nonsense. It would be some young, male heterosexual thugs - and it happens rarely.
[/quote]

I specifically said the ROOT cause for a reason. Christianity has completely pervaded our culture and has done much to shape our society. It would be silly to think that this issue starts and stops with those who attend church today.
[/quote]

It is not the root cause by any stretch. If it were one could point to homosexual pogroms by Christians historically. If it were Christians would be the ones committing assaults against homosexuals as opposed to drunk, testoterone-fueled, secular young heterosexual men. Even in Islamic countries where homosexuality is punishable by death I would no go so far as to say that Islamic teachings are the ‘root cause.’ Your argument is specious.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
No one should have to rent their property to anyone they don’t want to. That’s about as slippery a slope as I’ve ever seen, and twice as steep. [/quote]

Interesting. Does that include racial discrimination in your opinion?

I know and you know that you don’t know how to take your shoes off when you come inside, so it is a relevant question. Further down that slippery slope might come the burakumin. [/quote]

No one should have to rent their property to anyone they don’t want to.

No qualifications.

You know that I am not a racist. But that doesn’t matter. If I don’t want to hire somebody, or to take on a tenant in one of my properties, created or procured with my own capital, by the sweat of my own brow, then no one, ever, should force me to take on anyone I do not want to. My reasons for not hiring or taking that person on, racist or otherwise, are beside the point.

Yeah, I understand the implications, but I think that, one the whole. society would work a whole lot better if we just stuck to my rule and let people work things out for themselves.
[/quote]

Interesting. I hadn’t realized how “libertarian” your views are on this point. I think I saw Rand Paul arguing something similar. Eh, given the history of the US, I’ll have to disagree but I understand where you are coming from.

[/quote]

Sorry, I have been completely tied up for the past week and am just now getting to this. Have not read the rest of the thread, either, so this may have been covered, but…

I actually agree with you more than I disagree. I just have a different idea as to the way in which social fairness and equality should be achieved. Forcing businesses and individuals to do things they don’t want to do, to hire and let on people they would prefer not to, is NOT the way to achieve that fairness. It may carry the veneer of effectiveness in the short term, because you are creating a plastic replica of the society would would prefer to have, but it is not real, and there are consequences that stem from doing so. We can see them now, easily.

Indeed, this very case (the OP) is itself a consequence of deciding that the government could “force” equality and fairness, and an example of how slippery the decline really is. We had one interest group, one time, because we needed to correct a problem. And then the other races also needed to be included. For fairness sake. And now we have a group that defines itself based upon sexual preference demanding access to private property where they are not wanted. Basing their demands upon the same basis.

Do you really think it will stop here? Why on earth should it? Should there be a line? If so, how do you draw it?[/quote]

These are interesting and just questions. My personal views are:

Stop here? no
Why? Not sure it should.
Line? Yes
How? The legislative process and discussions in the public square.

I guess I’m not yet sure if a sexual group should be able to rent out a church (or whatever initiated some of this). But I am pretty sure that Blacks in Milwaukee in the late 70s should not have been discriminated against when buying a house because of the color of their skin. I’m also pretty sure Black children should have been allowed to go to public schools in Kansas (separate=/=equal). I’m not sure if I’m making sense here as I’m only halfway through my coffee, but I think that the government was justified in stepping in regarding racial discrimination and is justified in looking at other forms of discrimination. While you and I might agree or disagree about it, where the line is drawn should be dealt with by the legislative process.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

I disagree entirely. Do you really believe that when homosexuals are assaulted for being gay that it is church goers of any denomination who would be the likely culprips? Nonsense. It would be some young, male heterosexual thugs - and it happens rarely.
[/quote]

I specifically said the ROOT cause for a reason. Christianity has completely pervaded our culture and has done much to shape our society. It would be silly to think that this issue starts and stops with those who attend church today.
[/quote]

I disagree that religion is the root cause. As we both know the bible was written by man with no influence from some imaginary being. Any ideas against homosexuality prior to the bible were the ideas of man, it just may have been the first time it was formally written in text which is referenced for guidelines in morality.[/quote]

I’m not saying homophobia originated in the Bible, it spread through religion however