Let's Talk Running

Training
21

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]Melvin Smiley wrote:
I actually like running sprints, that’s why I said distance running is tougher mentally. Could be the opposite for other folks.

I know that “this is the way it’s always been” doesn’t necessarily make something right, but the newest thing isn’t always the best thing either. You see a lot of boxers (who, more often than not, run a few miles every morning) still throwing hard in round 12, and you see a lot of MMA guys standing around gasping for air in round 2 after all the “cutting edge” snorkel interval suspension what the fuck ever they do for conditioning.[/quote]

The snorkel stuff is just stupid. That said, is it a better use of 20 min to run 3+ miles, or to interval sprints? I say intervaling sprints, no contest.

I do think there’s a pretty significant effect on performance at all levels when you compare 3min rounds to 5min rounds. Those ten min PRIDE rounds must have been killer.[/quote]

Your trying to justify not doing steady state cardio so you refuse to see the first response. Which is it increases the efficiency of your heart and lungs. This includes helps your recovery for the sprint training. If all people did was intervals they would probably be pretty fast runners. If you did 5 minute intervals then you would be in great shape for 1 round, and if someone else did 20 minutes then they would be in better shape then you for 4 20 minute rounds.

Keep in mind that when fighters ran, before recently, every run wasn’t just a slow steady 5 miles. Most runs were pretty intense. People used to have much better recovery abilities before they took out steady state runs.

Everything I said is useless if your such a good fighter you knock people out in the first 30 seconds, but then I probably would’ve heard of you.

22

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]Melvin Smiley wrote:
I actually like running sprints, that’s why I said distance running is tougher mentally. Could be the opposite for other folks.

I know that “this is the way it’s always been” doesn’t necessarily make something right, but the newest thing isn’t always the best thing either. You see a lot of boxers (who, more often than not, run a few miles every morning) still throwing hard in round 12, and you see a lot of MMA guys standing around gasping for air in round 2 after all the “cutting edge” snorkel interval suspension what the fuck ever they do for conditioning.[/quote]

The snorkel stuff is just stupid. That said, is it a better use of 20 min to run 3+ miles, or to interval sprints? I say intervaling sprints, no contest.

I do think there’s a pretty significant effect on performance at all levels when you compare 3min rounds to 5min rounds. Those ten min PRIDE rounds must have been killer.[/quote]

Your trying to justify not doing steady state cardio so you refuse to see the first response. Which is it increases the efficiency of your heart and lungs. This includes helps your recovery for the sprint training. If all people did was intervals they would probably be pretty fast runners. If you did 5 minute intervals then you would be in great shape for 1 round, and if someone else did 20 minutes then they would be in better shape then you for 4 20 minute rounds.

Keep in mind that when fighters ran, before recently, every run wasn’t just a slow steady 5 miles. Most runs were pretty intense. People used to have much better recovery abilities before they took out steady state runs.

Everything I said is useless if your such a good fighter you knock people out in the first 30 seconds, but then I probably would’ve heard of you.[/quote]

But it doesn’t need to be 5min of intervals vs. 20min steady state. Why not do intervals for 20min? Sure, your intensity will drop as you go, but that still seems more useful than a steady 20 min. In that scenario what does the steady 20 give you that the intervals don’t?

23

IIRC I remember reading somewhere that the use of snorkel in conditioning actually isn’t beneficial at all, and may hamper aerobic capacity if used consistently. I can’t remember the exact details however.

At any rate, comparing guys gassing in MMA to guys not gassing in boxing is kind of silly. Two totally different workloads.

24

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:

At any rate, comparing guys gassing in MMA to guys not gassing in boxing is kind of silly. Two totally different workloads.[/quote]

Yeah, I know. But next to FightinIrish I’m probably the biggest boxing jockrider on the forum, I was just hoping nobody would call me on it haha

25

Joe Louis did intervals over a distance of 5-6 miles, Muhammad Ali would do 6 miles in around 40 minutes, Mike Tyson jogged 3 miles. There’s nothing set in stone about anything being the quintessential roadwork for boxing. Traditionally it’s been a 5 mile run which in my experience has usually been done at a pace someone can maintain for the entire distance. As long as you’re doing something and putting your best effort into training you’ll get the benefits of taking the initiative to improve your conditioning.

26

I would put in this order of efficiency

1 - Technical Work - Pad, Sparring, Heavy Bag, Shadow Box
2 - Anaerobic Work - Sprint, Sled, Car pushing
3 - Aerobic Work

27

Let it be clear that there is a difference between RUNNING and JOGGING.
Jogging probably doesn’t do much for you.
Running, on the other hand, can help.

28

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Let it be clear that there is a difference between RUNNING and JOGGING.
Jogging probably doesn’t do much for you.
Running, on the other hand, can help.[/quote]

+1

If you intend to fight at 60% effort, then by all means jog. Otherwise, train like you fight.

29

I swear some people just completely ignore informative posts on here…

30

Masato the K1 MAX champion had some fucking crazy cardiovascular program later into his career, I’m sure I found it on the internet somewhere, but alas I’ve lost it. Anyway from what I remember it was a combination of sprint work and incredibly painful aerobic work to push his vo2 max.

It certainly payed off in the end, relentless work pace, and that’s saying something considering nearly all the guys in the MAX went like the clappers.

haha look at this shit:

Looks like he’s almost about to pass out. Fuck that.

31

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Let it be clear that there is a difference between RUNNING and JOGGING.
Jogging probably doesn’t do much for you.
Running, on the other hand, can help.[/quote]

+1

If you intend to fight at 60% effort, then by all means jog. Otherwise, train like you fight.[/quote]
Not entirely you would die training like you fight non stop. Sparring and drilling are all high intensity adding more and more high intensity stuff to the equation is asking for problems.

32

[quote]goldengloves wrote:
Joe Louis did intervals over a distance of 5-6 miles, Muhammad Ali would do 6 miles in around 40 minutes, Mike Tyson jogged 3 miles. There’s nothing set in stone about anything being the quintessential roadwork for boxing. Traditionally it’s been a 5 mile run which in my experience has usually been done at a pace someone can maintain for the entire distance. As long as you’re doing something and putting your best effort into training you’ll get the benefits of taking the initiative to improve your conditioning.[/quote]

Then there was George Foreman whose entire training was a 10 mile run, 'cept he’d be behind a truck with a heavy bag suspended from the back and pound on the thing the whole time. Cheap, effective and really ghetto…

– jj

33

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
I would put in this order of efficiency

1 - Technical Work - Pad, Sparring, Heavy Bag, Shadow Box
2 - Anaerobic Work - Sprint, Sled, Car pushing
3 - Aerobic Work [/quote]

You’ve got 2 and 3 backwards.

34

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]Melvin Smiley wrote:
I actually like running sprints, that’s why I said distance running is tougher mentally. Could be the opposite for other folks.

I know that “this is the way it’s always been” doesn’t necessarily make something right, but the newest thing isn’t always the best thing either. You see a lot of boxers (who, more often than not, run a few miles every morning) still throwing hard in round 12, and you see a lot of MMA guys standing around gasping for air in round 2 after all the “cutting edge” snorkel interval suspension what the fuck ever they do for conditioning.[/quote]

The snorkel stuff is just stupid. That said, is it a better use of 20 min to run 3+ miles, or to interval sprints? I say intervaling sprints, no contest.

I do think there’s a pretty significant effect on performance at all levels when you compare 3min rounds to 5min rounds. Those ten min PRIDE rounds must have been killer.[/quote]

Your trying to justify not doing steady state cardio so you refuse to see the first response. Which is it increases the efficiency of your heart and lungs. This includes helps your recovery for the sprint training. If all people did was intervals they would probably be pretty fast runners. If you did 5 minute intervals then you would be in great shape for 1 round, and if someone else did 20 minutes then they would be in better shape then you for 4 20 minute rounds.

Keep in mind that when fighters ran, before recently, every run wasn’t just a slow steady 5 miles. Most runs were pretty intense. People used to have much better recovery abilities before they took out steady state runs.

Everything I said is useless if your such a good fighter you knock people out in the first 30 seconds, but then I probably would’ve heard of you.[/quote]

I did not mean 5 minutes total for intervals. I meant one intense 5 minute interval then rest then another compared vs an easy steady state.

If you do intervals correctly it will be demanding, not something you should do every day. You have to recover from intervals.

Steady state is something you do every day to have a base. Once you have that base you can do your intervals with more intensity and less rest. You will be able to use your heart and lungs as a tool to improve your skills, versus using your skills as a tool to improve your heart and lungs.

It’s similar to when the Yankees had that hot new trainer. Who cut out steady state running, just had them doing sprints and interval training. They were all fast as hell to first base, with pulled hamstrings on their way to second.

35

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Let it be clear that there is a difference between RUNNING and JOGGING.
Jogging probably doesn’t do much for you.
Running, on the other hand, can help.[/quote]

+1

If you intend to fight at 60% effort, then by all means jog. Otherwise, train like you fight.[/quote]
Not entirely you would die training like you fight non stop. Sparring and drilling are all high intensity adding more and more high intensity stuff to the equation is asking for problems.[/quote]

I swim easy laps on my recovery days, but I don’t count it as aerobic work. Just because you go balls to the wall for your aerobic work doesn’t mean you have to do that every day. Better to go hard (~85%) on your distance run with appropriate rest than to rely on jogging to develop your aerobic function.

36

[quote]jj-dude wrote:

[quote]goldengloves wrote:
Joe Louis did intervals over a distance of 5-6 miles, Muhammad Ali would do 6 miles in around 40 minutes, Mike Tyson jogged 3 miles. There’s nothing set in stone about anything being the quintessential roadwork for boxing. Traditionally it’s been a 5 mile run which in my experience has usually been done at a pace someone can maintain for the entire distance. As long as you’re doing something and putting your best effort into training you’ll get the benefits of taking the initiative to improve your conditioning.[/quote]

Then there was George Foreman whose entire training was a 10 mile run, 'cept he’d be behind a truck with a heavy bag suspended from the back and pound on the thing the whole time. Cheap, effective and really ghetto…

– jj[/quote]

A lot of fighters before Dempsey came around did 120 miles a week.

37

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
I would put in this order of efficiency

1 - Technical Work - Pad, Sparring, Heavy Bag, Shadow Box
2 - Anaerobic Work - Sprint, Sled, Car pushing
3 - Aerobic Work [/quote]

You’ve got 2 and 3 backwards.[/quote]

I agree with the initial order; sans the sled/car pushing + weight training. Those things have the most direct carryover. Technical and true anaerobic/longer interval work can’t be done at full tilt (optimally) day in day out. This, I believe is where slow/moderate paced running comes into play - in between brutal sessions. It seems to help with physical recovery, it’s meditative and somehow, it helps you last in the ring. I think that being familiar with the various levels of exertion helps the fighter gauge the pace of the bout and better dictate it.

38

random thought on running and S&C in general…

when i train in kickboxing, i throw as fast and stiff as i can, all the time. granted, i’m smoked by training like this, but i really don’t need a lot fo supplementary training. i’ve seen some of the guys in my gym throw a lot of half-ass mini jabs as a finsher to a kickboxing workout and pretend like it’s making them better. IMO, they’re better off doing something else with the correct form, or building up to throwing power all the time. i think a lot of people that gas in fights don’t throw enough speed and power in training. *side not: i don’t do this when sparring, more so when usng pads, shadowboxing and with the heavybag… also, not so much in wrestling/BJJ

i think most people need to run to build an aerobic base, and that’s it. beyond that, if people don’t train particularly hard in training they need more external work. if you train hard in the ring, then you prolly don’t need a lot more other stuff…

just my opinion.

39

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
random thought on running and S&C in general…

when i train in kickboxing, i throw as fast and stiff as i can, all the time. granted, i’m smoked by training like this, but i really don’t need a lot fo supplementary training. i’ve seen some of the guys in my gym throw a lot of half-ass mini jabs as a finsher to a kickboxing workout and pretend like it’s making them better. IMO, they’re better off doing something else with the correct form, or building up to throwing power all the time. i think a lot of people that gas in fights don’t throw enough speed and power in training. *side not: i don’t do this when sparring, more so when usng pads, shadowboxing and with the heavybag… also, not so much in wrestling/BJJ

i think most people need to run to build an aerobic base, and that’s it. beyond that, if people don’t train particularly hard in training they need more external work. if you train hard in the ring, then you prolly don’t need a lot more other stuff…

just my opinion.[/quote]

I agree to some extent, it’ll really just depends on what level you’re competing at. I think supplementary training is necessary for boxing at the professional level but not so much on the amateur level. If I was competing still I’d do the supplementary training simply for the discipline and dedication aspect of it, mentally it can really give you an advantage in fights.

You’ve a good point about people taking it easy in training. That and if someone isn’t putting any mustard on their shots in training they most likely wont in a sanctioned bout.

40

people seem to think a fight is two guys throwin punches at eachother non stop till the bell rings. thats a brawl. theres alot more to it. running over the years has helped my footwork, the ability to bounce around and move. when you’re in the ring, those periods of ‘inactivity’ when you move alot or slow the fight down(inevitable part of your strategy) feel like cardio, your calves need to be able to take it, you need to be able to breathe properly, you’ll be coming down from an intense level of activity and need to maintain your composure, stay alert and focused yet relaxed while you lower your heart rate. running gives you the ability to be comfortable at that level, so you wont even feel like you’re working. you wont be able to take a break like you do during interval training.

so a guy who doesnt run will easily get gassed at that point because he doesnt train that system, doesnt matter if he does sprints and explosive work ect, its a completely different kind of energy to carry you through those moments. i see it all the time. anyone whos sparred for or fought for several rounds will know what im talking about.

fighting is both aerobic and anaerobic. dont get confused from all the videos of fighters doing explosive work, yeah its important and everyone is excited about it nowadays but if thats your entire training regime your pretty much just like a sprinter. a sprinter would be gassed after the first couple rounds. a long distance guy would last, but wouldnt be explosive enough or strong enough to take the punishment. so you need a mixture of both. which is why roadwork was invented. moments of intensity peppered over a long run. ohter, as people have mentioned, its useful for fat burning/making weight. another thing it adds is a sense of determination and perseverance, it aint fun but you get through it, just like a fight. i dont know anyone who fights seriously without it.

so do your running.