The LEO’s I’ve trained with who are new jiu jitsu students have not stood out in any way compared to any other new student aside from being generally fit and being game for the experience. Whatever hand-to-hand training they are getting at the academy is not producing a skillset that stands out from any other white belt.
As an aside, I’ve always thought it would be a lot of fun to play a game of “Can You Handcuff Me?” on the mats with some cops. It would be a good training opportunity for some LEO’s and I can’t help but get a kick out of giving cops a hard time. During my teenage years I was a distributor of vegetation that certain jurisdictions consider to be felony behavior. I also successfully eluded the police during several gatherings my friends and I were having.
You jerks didn’t catch me then, and good luck trying to handcuff me now!
Agree with you to the letter here. Not trying to fight ya, hope it wasn’t coming across that way. Appreciate the discussion, even if we may differ on some views.
We straight up did this at a navy course. Lesson learned, it was way freaking harder than we thought it would be. Not saying I support it, but I totally understand after struggling for a couple minutes the mentality of “ya know, let’s just beat the hell out of him until he leaves his damn hands still”
I was training no-gi with a 25 year-old judoka last weekend. Strong as shit, tons of energy and a decent grappler. Overall much more athletic than I am. I was trying to take his back, but he was just making me work so hard to hold mount and that I gave up on the back take and bullied an Americana from mount, just to make it stop.
A better jiu jitsu guy would’ve handled him easier, but I’m not that guy. I pulled out my billy club and beat him with it out of frustration.
Do your shoulders dislocate? Do you want them to dislocate?
The trick with handcuffing is that you’re trying to put a small piece of metal on a moving target. The goal isn’t to win a fight or anything else - it’s getting that cuff on the wrist. The reality is that a person usually has to give it up. Most humans are strong when they pull their arms in to their body. It’s damn near impossible to overpower them in that position. The only option is compliance in the form of pain.
And let’s not forget that we haven’t searched the person yet. They might decide to give me the arm…with a knife at the end of it, or worse.
That’s why these incidents just look like dog piles and beatings. Pain usually gets a response. Pain also disrupts the person’s thought process and reduces their chances of forming a plan to hurt the officer.
You know the OODA loop. A punch to the face disrupts that and buys time. In reality, we just have to stall long enough for backup.
This is what I’d genuinely get a kick out of seeing in action. I’m not saying I’m unstoppable, especially once you get two cops in play, but I’d like to see how it all plays out.
I know when my shoulder is in danger, so I’d give up long before any joints need to be deranged!
I would agree. Much of the general public seems to believe to believe police have a greater responsibility to the safety of the subject than to their own safety. However this is completely inaccurate not to mention unreasonable. The priorities if life are clear 1.) public, 2.) police, 3.) subject.
The man in the video who picks up the knife shows no intent, at least none that is visible to me in the video. The man in the first video who charges and gets the cops back shows clear intent from the outset. If cops immediately shot everyone who had a knife in their hand, we’d all have a stack of shootings by the time we had 5 years service. That’s just not how it is.
Hand to hand skills for most LE leave much to be desired. There is shit they need to stop teaching and shit they need to start teaching. That said, when you evaluate the skillset that ‘academy’ training produces, you need to bear in mind that most academy programs are no more than 6 months. During that time, maybe 8 hours per week is devoted to defensive tactics, or whatever you want to call it.
During that time cadets must learn proper use of cover, distance management, situational awareness, basic room clearing, communication (both with subject and dispatch), legals, handcuffing (compliant and non-compliant), integrated weapons deployment from baton/spray to firearms, team tactics, searching, high risk vehicle takedowns etc, etc. The amount of time spent ‘rolling’ is negligible.
The key to the ‘can you cuff me’ game is control before cuffing, much like position before submission. Until you have established a completely dominant control position, leave your cuffs in the pouch. Most cops rush and try to cuff while the guy is still actively fighting. It rarely goes well.
100 second rule is great for this. Hold someone down for 100 seconds from a dominant position, I like knee on belly/chest/back for this, but mount can work. Let them thrash around and gas out. Don’t do anything but settle in heavy and keep the pressure on for 100 seconds. Time is on your side. After that they will usually be so tired/demoralized that they’ll let you cuff them just to make it stop. Obviously, it’s less effective with Jiu-Jitsu people who are comfortable being uncomfortable and know effective escapes, but remember how you felt first time someone went knee on soul with you. The helplessness and panic are real. I firmly believe universal Jiu-Jitsu training for cops would reduce incidents of lethal force that arise from police being unable to physically control a subject.
Incidentally, this is pretty much what my whole Jiu-Jitsu game revolves around. Strangely, I’m not usually swarmed with partners at open mat. Go figure.
Absolutely, and my post wasn’t a knock on the overall training methodology, but more of an acknowledgment of the realities of learning to control people with your hands. Priorities matter no matter what you’re training, and cops have a lot of important priorities to train besides grappling.
You and I also know how long it takes to gain proficiency, even basic proficiency, in controlling the next high-as-a-kite asshole who decides he doesn’t want to behave like a normal person. Roll the dice on how big, strong, in-shape, aggressive, skilled and impervious to pain they are, then GO!
In simple terms, it’s at minimum an associate’s degree in jiu jitsu, at least for big, strong motherfuckers like me. For most men, it’s a probably closer to a bachelor’s degree. Most women will need a master’s degree or better if they’re to stand any chance of controlling someone reliably, and everyone can still be presented with problems that grappling cannot solve.
This perfect world hand-to-hand training is on top of everything else they need to know, and all the duties we expect them to perfom. It is not a realistic expectation.
You are speaking my jiu jitsu language here. Break their fucking spirit, then finish what you started out to do.
I know a few other people you’d like to meet who are of similar mind about the purpose of training jiu jitsu. It is very nice to train with people who are willing to play the game.
Judoka and wrestlers are two trainees I always dread rolling with. Judoka because trying to keep them still is a nightmare, and wrestlers because they grind your face into the mats.
Yep they are both usually big handfuls. In reality I tapped out of that roll, even though I submitted him. I gave up my goal for that round and made it stop.
As much as I like training talk, we’re getting off topic again!
Sounds great man. I’m definitely in the “make Jiu-Jitsu violent again” camp. I feel Jiu-Jitsu has lost its way in many regards. I know there are “dick moves” in friendly rolls, but seriously, we’re simulating murder here, not doing yoga. Sack up a little.
Also, you make an excellent point here about attributes as well as skills. I know in my agency, back in the day, we were kinda famous for hiring a bunch of big, strong farm kids who’d grown up shooting varmints, tossing bales, cutting wood and getting in hockey fights, but had kept their noses clean enough to pass the background and had some common sense. Boys weren’t that skilled, but they were game and could throw down. Those days are gone forever, for better or for worse (I’m a bit of a throwback to those times, but I’m the anomaly).
The emphasis on ‘soft touch’, social work based, community policing now puts a hiring premium on diversity, university education, volunteering, technical skills etc. I would say the overwhelming majority of new cops have never been in a fight before they hit the streets. People coming from that background are honestly gonna need more skill/training to handle real violence effectively than someone a bit more… rough and tumble.
