And 2
[quote]BrownTrout wrote:
I’m not a huge fan of Brock. I’m not at all impressed with a guy 20% larger than his opponents basically going out there and raping them in the asses. The good fighters that he’s been matched again aren’t close enough in size to defeat him standing or on the ground.
Shane Carwin will be his first opponent that has a comparable size, level of athleticism, and wrestling ability. Brock will simply not be able G n P him the way he did to Randy. Brock has a much weaker stand up game. Brock’s real advantage is his incredible leg strength. He has some of the meatiest wheels in the UFC. [/quote]
Agree 100%.
What sense does a 60 lb spread HW division make? Every other division, people come in one or two lbs away from one another. In HW, the rare 265ers dominate the mostly 220-230 division, and people are in awe. It’s like a 185er dominating the 170lb class. Who gives a shit?
Brock is a good athlete, but not near as great as everyone seems to think. The HW division spread is just BS.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
John S. wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
John S. wrote:
So if Lesnar wins does this put him in the #1 heavy weight spot? Or if he wins does he have to fight the winner of Ben Rothwell vs Cain Velasquez before he is called that.
lol…that’s cute.
I am a big Fedor fan but who has he really fought in the passed couple of years that has shown to actually be something? Cro Cop got KTFO’d buy a guy who is know fighting on a under card, And on the 29th we will find out if Nogueira is still relevant. Big Timmy and Arlovski have shown that they are now irrelevant. I should also note that before Arlovski did his little flying knee he was beating Fedor.
Where as Lesnar has now beat the only guy who TKO’d Nogueira, maybe Nogueira was in bad shape like I said on the 29th we will see what he still has in him. Lesnar also beat Couture, and he has shown himself to still be a dominate fighter.
Right now Fedor has the #1 spot, but by not fighting the top competition how can you justify holding it, especially when the guys that gave you your claim to fame are being beaten in the UFC.
Pardon my rudeness,but I really don’t give a shit about all that. Until Lesnar dominates top contenders in their prime over a lengthy time period(like Fedor)…and/or actually beats Fedor,I don’t see Brock as #1 HW in the world. [/quote]
X2
[quote]bantamamerica wrote:
BrownTrout wrote:
I’m not a huge fan of Brock. I’m not at all impressed with a guy 20% larger than his opponents basically going out there and raping them in the asses. The good fighters that he’s been matched again aren’t close enough in size to defeat him standing or on the ground.
Shane Carwin will be his first opponent that has a comparable size, level of athleticism, and wrestling ability. Brock will simply not be able G n P him the way he did to Randy. Brock has a much weaker stand up game. Brock’s real advantage is his incredible leg strength. He has some of the meatiest wheels in the UFC.
Agree 100%.
What sense does a 60 lb spread HW division make? Every other division, people come in one or two lbs away from one another. In HW, the rare 265ers dominate the mostly 220-230 division, and people are in awe. It’s like a 185er dominating the 170lb class. Who gives a shit?
Brock is a good athlete, but not near as great as everyone seems to think. The HW division spread is just BS.
[/quote]
x2 + Boxing
I’d take #1 to meet you can kick anybody’s ass in that division in the world at the time. If you want to say best ever then that’s something different. Fedor is king, because he’s around and brock hasn’t beat him, but as far as #1 fighter I’d have to give that to Brock. If Fedor is 80 years old and never lost because he hasn’t fought in 30 years are you still gioong to say he’s the current #1 HW in the world?
Besides Lesnar is a top contender, and Lesnar is in his prime or at least getting there. Unless he makes that fight happen then how much does he deserve it.
[quote]acantare wrote:
Carwin still isnt as big as nearly as big as brock. He weighed in at 260 for Gonzaga that leads me to beleive he isnt cutting down, so he is a natural 260 Brock is coming down from probably 275-280. If you watch the Gonzaga fight Carwin was taken down pretty easy by Gage. Carwin has a pnchers chance but thats it.[/quote]
Carwin weighs 280-290 when not preparing for fight…he has been quoted as saying that he cuts during camp and to whatever weight gives him best advantage with his cardio and foot speed.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
acantare wrote:
Carwin still isnt as big as nearly as big as brock. He weighed in at 260 for Gonzaga that leads me to beleive he isnt cutting down, so he is a natural 260 Brock is coming down from probably 275-280. If you watch the Gonzaga fight Carwin was taken down pretty easy by Gage. Carwin has a pnchers chance but thats it.
Carwin weighs 280-290 when not preparing for fight…he has been quoted as saying that he cuts during camp and to whatever weight gives him best advantage with his cardio and foot speed. [/quote]
Wonder what his plan is for Brock? If he gains appreciable speed and indurance without too much strength loss at a lighter weight, does he come in lighter?
[quote]dhickey wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
acantare wrote:
Carwin still isnt as big as nearly as big as brock. He weighed in at 260 for Gonzaga that leads me to beleive he isnt cutting down, so he is a natural 260 Brock is coming down from probably 275-280. If you watch the Gonzaga fight Carwin was taken down pretty easy by Gage. Carwin has a pnchers chance but thats it.
Carwin weighs 280-290 when not preparing for fight…he has been quoted as saying that he cuts during camp and to whatever weight gives him best advantage with his cardio and foot speed.
Wonder what his plan is for Brock? If he gains appreciable speed and indurance without too much strength loss at a lighter weight, does he come in lighter? [/quote]
I don’t know…I doubt it. I think it would be in his best interest to weigh-in and fight heavier with minimal loss in his speed and endurance. I also wonder how their camps are dealing with good training partners for these beasts. Because we already know(and from my experience as well)…it is a different game when you’re tussling with someone your size and damn near just as athletic.
edit
But say he does come in lighter…he could most likely have edge in mobility and conditioning. And he wouldn’t be so much smaller than Brock that he couldn’t deal with his weight…especially if say,their is only a 10-15lbs difference. BUT Carwin has never fought someone bigger than him and more athletic. And Brock hasn’t fought anyone who is easily capable of matching his size. If Brock plans to just wrestle,he has to be careful of his conditioning with dealing a not so small and strong Carwin. Well,shit…same goes for Carwin as well. Damn,I can’t wait for this fight.
Got to factor in that reach advantage of Brock’s as well.
I keep going flip-flop on this fight. I’ve got a better’s mind when it comes to this and there are always two kinds of bets made, with the heart and with the brain. Obviously I want Carwin to win, to knock Lesner’s head off, see the mouthpiece go flying out, that would be great. In order to do that, Carwin will have to neutralize Brock’s takedowns and get inside. I think the plan will be to tire Brock enough so that Big Shane can land that one big shot.
Someone here mentioned that Brock used to gas in his college wrestling days? Can we confirm that? Wasn’t he like 200-4 or something like that? Also, hate to bring up WWE here but that crap is somewhat impressive as far as cardio goes. Some of those matches go on a long time and there’s a lot of weight being thrown around. I don’t think Brock would have much of a problem taking down Carwin. Carwin did get up from having Gonzaga on top of him though and being rocked. Which is impressive.
50/50 right now. I’d like to think that Brock is overconfident and will end up getting caught.
[quote]chigurh wrote:
Got to factor in that reach advantage of Brock’s as well.
I keep going flip-flop on this fight. I’ve got a better’s mind when it comes to this and there are always two kinds of bets made, with the heart and with the brain. Obviously I want Carwin to win, to knock Lesner’s head off, see the mouthpiece go flying out, that would be great. In order to do that, Carwin will have to neutralize Brock’s takedowns and get inside. I think the plan will be to tire Brock enough so that Big Shane can land that one big shot.
Someone here mentioned that Brock used to gas in his college wrestling days? Can we confirm that? Wasn’t he like 200-4 or something like that? Also, hate to bring up WWE here but that crap is somewhat impressive as far as cardio goes. Some of those matches go on a long time and there’s a lot of weight being thrown around. I don’t think Brock would have much of a problem taking down Carwin. Carwin did get up from having Gonzaga on top of him though and being rocked. Which is impressive.
50/50 right now. I’d like to think that Brock is overconfident and will end up getting caught.[/quote]
When you’re dancing around the ring in the WWE no one is trying to punch you in the face… Or knee you in the ribs… Or snap your arm in half… You see what I’m saying? I rewatched the Couture/Lesnar fight yesterday and I’d forgotten that Couture was winning that fight handily before Lesnar landed those awkward hammer fists and the ref stopped it. Every time Couture landed a shot it was frustrating and confusing Lesnar. I’m thinking Lesnar getting caught is gonna have nothing to do with his over confidence and everything to do with him sucking on his feet. If you watch any of Carwins fights [at least his UFC matches] he comes out stalking. Against Wellisch [sp?] it looked like he was pulling his punches or maybe even uncomfortable until he landed that straight right [maybe it was a cross, don’t remember]. His next fight against Gonzaga he was clearly more comfortable letting it fly. I don’t see any reason why he won’t come out and put pressure on Lesnar immediately, and be that much more comfortable doing it.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
I don’t know…I doubt it. I think it would be in his best interest to weigh-in and fight heavier with minimal loss in his speed and endurance.
[/quote] Think it comes down to gameplan. If his GP is to aviod going to the ground and the clinch, then being heavier at the expense of quickness and cardio probably won’t do much for him. If he thinks he is not going to be able to avoid the clinch or wrestling with Brock, then strenght (size) should be a concern.
I think this is a great match-up. The truth is when you have two guys this big and powerfull anything can happen. It’s only going to take one well placed shot to set up a spectacular finish.
If Carwin is light for this fight, I hope people don’t continue assuming Lesanr’s only advantage is his size. If guys that could come in just as heavy chose not too, it’s for a reason. They don’t think they have to.
Outside of Roy Nelson or some of the shorter guys, everyone in HW division could be heavier if they wanted to be. More time on the weights and at the dinner table. It’s understandable that they don’t put a priority on this, but that’s their choice. They know what weight class they are in and they know who they will be fighting. It’s no different than a striker or grappler chosing not to put a priority on the other skill. You can hardly claim it is not fair that one apponent has a black belt in BJJ and other doesn’t, or that one was more committed to conditioning than the other.
[quote]chigurh wrote:
Got to factor in that reach advantage of Brock’s as well.
[/quote]
Why do you think he has a reach advantage? Shane looks like he’s got some of the longest/biggest arm joints I have ever seen. Don’t forget that reach in the UFC is measured as wingspan so a lot of it is counted as shoulder girdle. Also as I recall Carwin’s “reach” (wingspan) is equal to Brock’s or an inch shorter.
Now if you were to say to me that Brock throws straighter, longer shots and has his shoulders more relaxed, then yes, I’d agree. 
Brock just seems to have abnormally long arms. But from what I’ve found online . . .
Brock 81"
Carwin 80"
[quote]dhickey wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
I don’t know…I doubt it. I think it would be in his best interest to weigh-in and fight heavier with minimal loss in his speed and endurance.
Think it comes down to gameplan. If his GP is to aviod going to the ground and the clinch, then being heavier at the expense of quickness and cardio probably won’t do much for him. If he thinks he is not going to be able to avoid the clinch or wrestling with Brock, then strenght (size) should be a concern.
edit
But say he does come in lighter…he could most likely have edge in mobility and conditioning. And he wouldn’t be so much smaller than Brock that he couldn’t deal with his weight…especially if say,their is only a 10-15lbs difference. BUT Carwin has never fought someone bigger than him and more athletic. And Brock hasn’t fought anyone who is easily capable of matching his size. If Brock plans to just wrestle,he has to be careful of his conditioning with dealing a not so small and strong Carwin. Well,shit…same goes for Carwin as well. Damn,I can’t wait for this fight.
I think this is a great match-up. The truth is when you have two guys this big and powerfull anything can happen. It’s only going to take one well placed shot to set up a spectacular finish.
If Carwin is light for this fight, I hope people don’t continue assuming Lesanr’s only advantage is his size. If guys that could come in just as heavy chose not too, it’s for a reason. They don’t think they have to.
Outside of Roy Nelson or some of the shorter guys, everyone in HW division could be heavier if they wanted to be. More time on the weights and at the dinner table. It’s understandable that they don’t put a priority on this, but that’s their choice. They know what weight class they are in and they know who they will be fighting. It’s no different than a striker or grappler chosing not to put a priority on the other skill. You can hardly claim it is not fair that one apponent has a black belt in BJJ and other doesn’t, or that one was more committed to conditioning than the other.
[/quote]
Dude,the majority of HW fighters would sacrifice so much more important skills/components if they tried to put on extra weight/muscle mass. It would be detrimental to their conditioning in the pursuit of strength/size. Granted if a guy has the natural muscular/big frame for it…I could see it possible. But for the most part…more weights and dinner table would have the most negative effects on HW fighters. In order to do that,they would have to take an extensive break from fighting to make those goals happen without sacrificing more important needs. Unless of course they start “eating horsemeat” like Overeem…haha.
Hence GSPs hesitation to go up in weight.
[quote]BrownTrout wrote:
Kalle wrote:
BrownTrout wrote:
acantare wrote:
Carwin still isnt as big as nearly as big as brock. He weighed in at 260 for Gonzaga that leads me to beleive he isnt cutting down, so he is a natural 260 Brock is coming down from probably 275-280. If you watch the Gonzaga fight Carwin was taken down pretty easy by Gage. Carwin has a pnchers chance but thats it.
I don;t understand this statement. The fact that Brock is coming down and carwin is a natural 260 should give carwin the advantage, not Lesnar. Have you ever lost 20 pounds of muscle mass? You feel like shit for a while.
Look at pictures, bro. That was not all water weight. He lost some solid shit.
20lbs of water weight…
[/quote]
Dude, he was obviously using AAS as a wrestler, almost all of those guys do. Now that he is a drug tested athlete how can you expect him to hold onto all that size? Not to mention the time difference between those 2 pics is at least 3 years, so I fail to see your point.
[quote]John S. wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
John S. wrote:
So if Lesnar wins does this put him in the #1 heavy weight spot? Or if he wins does he have to fight the winner of Ben Rothwell vs Cain Velasquez before he is called that.
lol…that’s cute.
I am a big Fedor fan but who has he really fought in the passed couple of years that has shown to actually be something? Cro Cop got KTFO’d buy a guy who is know fighting on a under card, And on the 29th we will find out if Nogueira is still relevant. Big Timmy and Arlovski have shown that they are now irrelevant. I should also note that before Arlovski did his little flying knee he was beating Fedor.
Where as Lesnar has now beat the only guy who TKO’d Nogueira, maybe Nogueira was in bad shape like I said on the 29th we will see what he still has in him. Lesnar also beat Couture, and he has shown himself to still be a dominate fighter.
Right now Fedor has the #1 spot, but by not fighting the top competition how can you justify holding it, especially when the guys that gave you your claim to fame are being beaten in the UFC.[/quote]
Nogueria had a stave infection up until about a week before the Mir fight if I remember correctly…
I do agree with what you said with Fedor; choosing to not compete against the best in the world I think relieved him of the ‘top heavyweight in the world’ title.
[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
BrownTrout wrote:
Kalle wrote:
BrownTrout wrote:
acantare wrote:
Carwin still isnt as big as nearly as big as brock. He weighed in at 260 for Gonzaga that leads me to beleive he isnt cutting down, so he is a natural 260 Brock is coming down from probably 275-280. If you watch the Gonzaga fight Carwin was taken down pretty easy by Gage. Carwin has a pnchers chance but thats it.
I don;t understand this statement. The fact that Brock is coming down and carwin is a natural 260 should give carwin the advantage, not Lesnar. Have you ever lost 20 pounds of muscle mass? You feel like shit for a while.
Look at pictures, bro. That was not all water weight. He lost some solid shit.
20lbs of water weight…
Dude, he was obviously using AAS as a wrestler, almost all of those guys do. Now that he is a drug tested athlete how can you expect him to hold onto all that size? Not to mention the time difference between those 2 pics is at least 3 years, so I fail to see your point.[/quote]
haha exactly, I read that earlier and thought he was kidding.
he doesn’t cut 20lbs of muscle for weigh in’s than weigh in the next day 20lbs heavier. lol
How about using pics from a weigh in than pics from a fight smart guy.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Dude,the majority of HW fighters would sacrifice so much more important skills/components if they tried to put on extra weight/muscle mass. It would be detrimental to their conditioning in the pursuit of strength/size. Granted if a guy has the natural muscular/big frame for it…I could see it possible. But for the most part…more weights and dinner table would have the most negative effects on HW fighters. In order to do that,they would have to take an extensive break from fighting to make those goals happen without sacrificing more important needs. Unless of course they start “eating horsemeat” like Overeem…haha. [/quote]
yep. some guys have spent half a lifetime gaining and maintaining size/strength, just like some have been training BJJ for half their life. They also have to make concessions in conditioning and quickness just like anyone else, and just like someone focusing on BJJ made concessions in other skills they did not focus on. I see no difference. We don’t expect Kongo to catch-up to Mir’s JJ but we don’t claim an unfair advantage for Mir.
Size and strength is skill like any other. Some have to work harder than others to attain it, just like some have to work harder to attain better striking, JJ, or wrestling.
Some have natural advantages when it comes size and strenght, just like some have a natural advantage when it comes to striking or other skills. Longer reach, quicker reflexes, better hand eye coordination, etc. Why are these not “unfair” advantages?
Don’t want to compete with 265lbers, don’t. Don’t want to compete with better strikers, don’t. Don’t want to compete with guys that are more athletic, don’t.
weight classes are more about allowing a larger number of athletes to compete at the highest levels than about “fairness”. This is why there are only enough weight classes as can be filled with reasonable talent.
People should think about what the weight spread really is at HW. Just like Diago cuts to 155 so he doesn’t have to fight guys like Alves, the smaller guys can cut to 205 if they don’t want to fight the big boys. Would guys walking around at 220, 230 or even 240 cutting to 205 be much different than what Diego or Alves cut as a % of BW? How many competitive 205lbers walk around 186 or even 200lbs? Is their disadvantage against guys like forrest “unfair”?
About WWE…landing on your back a hundred times in 15 minutes is no picnic…well that’s a little bit of an exaggeration, but those mats sting. It’s not fighting, but it still is physical activity.
Brock gets better with each fight. He was better vs Couture than he was vs Mir I and then again abetter vs Mir II than vs Couture. I mean he just beat the shit out of Mir. Bloodied his ass and made him look silly and Mir is no pushover.
Carwin is big…but I’m just not impressed with his wins. He beat Gonzaga…that’s about it. Gonzaga got press because he KO’d Cro Cop when people thought Cro Cop was the shit. Then he proceeded to get beat by Couture and Fabrico fucking Werdum.
Still not sold on Lesnar’s defeat of 80 yr old Couture…but if Couture beats Nog (which I think he will) that makes Lesnar’s defeat of Couture that much more impressive.
Fuck it…Lesnar wins at 4:00 into the first round via “sit and smother”…