Layers Without Block High Pulls, DeadSquats

[Christian_Thibaudeau]

[quote]domcib wrote:

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
I actually do all of my HDL work from the hang currently, but it seemed for the Ramp and Clusters I could get better form going heavier and use more weight.

CT - If you are still reading this, I am losing my Trap Bar as well. Do you like the continues ramp from Front Squat to Back Squat for a sub for leg growth?[/quote]
ramping from hang is not so bad. i have the bar on the j hoooks. pik it off the hooks, take 2-3 steps away so8 dont hit the rack with the plates, and do the lift.
clusters from the hang are killers. i did them once. i cannot imagine doing them again. id rather do from floor if i had to.[/quote]

High pulls from the hang are great for multi-reps sets, but not so much for any kind of rest pause.

For that reason here is a modification to the original layer system that you could do with pulls the hang:

LAYER 1 - Ramp to 3RM
LAYER 2 - 80% of 3RM, 3 sets of 6 reps
LAYER 3 - 70% of the 3RM, 3 reps EMOM* for 6 minutes

EMOM means Every Minute On the Minute. You start a timer and have to start a set as soon as the clock starts, another one when the clock hits 1 minute, a third one when it hits 2 minutes, a fourth one when it hits 3 minutes, etc. Until you reach 6 minutes (you do a set at the 6 minutes mark).

[domcib]

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]domcib wrote:

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
I actually do all of my HDL work from the hang currently, but it seemed for the Ramp and Clusters I could get better form going heavier and use more weight.

CT - If you are still reading this, I am losing my Trap Bar as well. Do you like the continues ramp from Front Squat to Back Squat for a sub for leg growth?[/quote]
ramping from hang is not so bad. i have the bar on the j hoooks. pik it off the hooks, take 2-3 steps away so8 dont hit the rack with the plates, and do the lift.
clusters from the hang are killers. i did them once. i cannot imagine doing them again. id rather do from floor if i had to.[/quote]

High pulls from the hang are great for multi-reps sets, but not so much for any kind of rest pause.

For that reason here is a modification to the original layer system that you could do with pulls the hang:

LAYER 1 - Ramp to 3RM
LAYER 2 - 80% of 3RM, 3 sets of 6 reps
LAYER 3 - 70% of the 3RM, 3 reps EMOM* for 6 minutes

EMOM means Every Minute On the Minute. You start a timer and have to start a set as soon as the clock starts, another one when the clock hits 1 minute, a third one when it hits 2 minutes, a fourth one when it hits 3 minutes, etc. Until you reach 6 minutes (you do a set at the 6 minutes mark).

[/quote]
awesome. gonna try it pull day in the next cycle. since its 3rm, i’ll do it on day6 i believe.
what about on the 1rm max day? and the ramp to 6rm day?

[health4ni]

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

High pulls from the hang are great for multi-reps sets, but not so much for any kind of rest pause.

For that reason here is a modification to the original layer system that you could do with pulls the hang:

LAYER 1 - Ramp to 3RM
LAYER 2 - 80% of 3RM, 3 sets of 6 reps
LAYER 3 - 70% of the 3RM, 3 reps EMOM* for 6 minutes

EMOM means Every Minute On the Minute. You start a timer and have to start a set as soon as the clock starts, another one when the clock hits 1 minute, a third one when it hits 2 minutes, a fourth one when it hits 3 minutes, etc. Until you reach 6 minutes (you do a set at the 6 minutes mark).

[/quote]
Ooo I like that. Kind of reached a plateau with SGHPs. I had gone back to doing the SGHP, SGChineseHP, CGLowPull. But feel this modification above is welcome change.

Thanks CT

[Christian_Thibaudeau]

[quote]health4ni wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

High pulls from the hang are great for multi-reps sets, but not so much for any kind of rest pause.

For that reason here is a modification to the original layer system that you could do with pulls the hang:

LAYER 1 - Ramp to 3RM
LAYER 2 - 80% of 3RM, 3 sets of 6 reps
LAYER 3 - 70% of the 3RM, 3 reps EMOM* for 6 minutes

EMOM means Every Minute On the Minute. You start a timer and have to start a set as soon as the clock starts, another one when the clock hits 1 minute, a third one when it hits 2 minutes, a fourth one when it hits 3 minutes, etc. Until you reach 6 minutes (you do a set at the 6 minutes mark).

[/quote]
Ooo I like that. Kind of reached a plateau with SGHPs. I had gone back to doing the SGHP, SGChineseHP, CGLowPull. But feel this modification above is welcome change.

Thanks CT[/quote]

Works great for added muscle mass. At one point strength gains will stop on high pulls because you can be limited not only by your strength but also by your explosiveness (or a combination of both). High pulls from the hang normally focus less on pure weight but the methods used allow to further muscle growth even when adding more weight to the bar is difficult.

[Lonnie123]

Very cool, Perhaps I will keep one “original” layer day and use this for the other SGHP day. I had been doing “technique work” with 135 on my second day, so this will serve the same function with more emphasis on Hypertrophy which is my goal.

Glad to see a few other people could benefit from the thread as well.

[Christian_Thibaudeau]

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Very cool, Perhaps I will keep one “original” layer day and use this for the other SGHP day. I had been doing “technique work” with 135 on my second day, so this will serve the same function with more emphasis on Hypertrophy which is my goal.

Glad to see a few other people could benefit from the thread as well.[/quote]

The power of technique work for hypertrophy should not be underestimated. I’ve been doing roughly 100 reps of snatches with only the barbell to start every workout (normally sets of 4-5) and I swear than my back and traps look a lot larger.

[cubuff2028]

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Very cool, Perhaps I will keep one “original” layer day and use this for the other SGHP day. I had been doing “technique work” with 135 on my second day, so this will serve the same function with more emphasis on Hypertrophy which is my goal.

Glad to see a few other people could benefit from the thread as well.[/quote]

The power of technique work for hypertrophy should not be underestimated. I’ve been doing roughly 100 reps of snatches with only the barbell to start every workout (normally sets of 4-5) and I swear than my back and traps look a lot larger. [/quote]

Interesting. There might be lesson in here about the amount of practice necessary to hone technique…

[Christian_Thibaudeau]

[quote]cubuff2028 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Very cool, Perhaps I will keep one “original” layer day and use this for the other SGHP day. I had been doing “technique work” with 135 on my second day, so this will serve the same function with more emphasis on Hypertrophy which is my goal.

Glad to see a few other people could benefit from the thread as well.[/quote]

The power of technique work for hypertrophy should not be underestimated. I’ve been doing roughly 100 reps of snatches with only the barbell to start every workout (normally sets of 4-5) and I swear than my back and traps look a lot larger. [/quote]

Interesting. There might be lesson in here about the amount of practice necessary to hone technique… [/quote]

I have a confession to make: I was a lousy olympic lifter. But a strong lousy olympic lifter. Because of that strength, and the fact that I started training and competing in olympic lifting when I was already strong I never learned proper technique.

I was explosive and strong. So I could snatch and clean & jerk fairly decent weights. But I was all over the place. In one session I could snatch 130kg (285lbs) but miss 70kg (155lbs) 6 or 7 times.

To give you an example, I once power snatched 125kg (275lbs) from blocks for 3 reps, but couldn’t do a full snatch with 120kg (265lbs).

I could front squat 210kg (460lbs) and power clean 150kg (330lbs) from the hang for 5 reps but couldn’t clean more than 160kg (350lbs) and even that was iffy.

This year I decided to get back to the Olympic lifts. From my work coaching I gained a much deeper understanding of proper technique and I thought that I could become a much better lifter.

Add the fact that I did a snatch-grip high pull with 180kg at a height sufficient to snatch it and had power snatched from blocks 120kg. That should mean at least a 140kg (315lbs) if not a 150kg (330lbs) snatch. Yet, 100kg (225lbs) was hit and miss. Turns out that despite my better knowledge, I still had the same issue of using bad technique; I would do what we call a pull-and-pray. I would basically throw the bar up in the air either by jumping or doing a powerful hip punch and hope that the bar would fall in the right spot. Decent power, zero precision.

So I decided to let my ego at the door and do what I should have done years ago: drop the weight and learn perfect technique; then get a zillion perfect reps.

So I’m actually doing 100 full snatches with only the bar, focusing on perfect technique and rapid, crisp movement. In fact I wont allow myself to start adding weight until I have done 1500 reps. And that will be a minimal amount of weight. About 100lbs. I will have to perform 500 reps with that weight before going up to 135. Then doing 500 reps with 135 before going to 185. After 500 reps with 185 I’ll be ready to start focusing on lifting more weight.

In the meantime I can spend more energy improving strength and strength-capacity.

[GrindOverMatter]

hows the layer system been for hypertrophy results Lonnie?

[cubuff2028]

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]cubuff2028 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Very cool, Perhaps I will keep one “original” layer day and use this for the other SGHP day. I had been doing “technique work” with 135 on my second day, so this will serve the same function with more emphasis on Hypertrophy which is my goal.

Glad to see a few other people could benefit from the thread as well.[/quote]

The power of technique work for hypertrophy should not be underestimated. I’ve been doing roughly 100 reps of snatches with only the barbell to start every workout (normally sets of 4-5) and I swear than my back and traps look a lot larger. [/quote]

Interesting. There might be lesson in here about the amount of practice necessary to hone technique… [/quote]

I have a confession to make: I was a lousy olympic lifter. But a strong lousy olympic lifter. Because of that strength, and the fact that I started training and competing in olympic lifting when I was already strong I never learned proper technique.

I was explosive and strong. So I could snatch and clean & jerk fairly decent weights. But I was all over the place. In one session I could snatch 130kg (285lbs) but miss 70kg (155lbs) 6 or 7 times.

To give you an example, I once power snatched 125kg (275lbs) from blocks for 3 reps, but couldn’t do a full snatch with 120kg (265lbs).

I could front squat 210kg (460lbs) and power clean 150kg (330lbs) from the hang for 5 reps but couldn’t clean more than 160kg (350lbs) and even that was iffy.

This year I decided to get back to the Olympic lifts. From my work coaching I gained a much deeper understanding of proper technique and I thought that I could become a much better lifter.

Add the fact that I did a snatch-grip high pull with 180kg at a height sufficient to snatch it and had power snatched from blocks 120kg. That should mean at least a 140kg (315lbs) if not a 150kg (330lbs) snatch. Yet, 100kg (225lbs) was hit and miss. Turns out that despite my better knowledge, I still had the same issue of using bad technique; I would do what we call a pull-and-pray. I would basically throw the bar up in the air either by jumping or doing a powerful hip punch and hope that the bar would fall in the right spot. Decent power, zero precision.

So I decided to let my ego at the door and do what I should have done years ago: drop the weight and learn perfect technique; then get a zillion perfect reps.

So I’m actually doing 100 full snatches with only the bar, focusing on perfect technique and rapid, crisp movement. In fact I wont allow myself to start adding weight until I have done 1500 reps. And that will be a minimal amount of weight. About 100lbs. I will have to perform 500 reps with that weight before going up to 135. Then doing 500 reps with 135 before going to 185. After 500 reps with 185 I’ll be ready to start focusing on lifting more weight.

In the meantime I can spend more energy improving strength and strength-capacity.[/quote]

bookmarking this one.

[Lonnie123]

[quote]GrindOverMatter wrote:
hows the layer system been for hypertrophy results Lonnie?[/quote]

Gains are coming slowly but surely. Its been a fun ride (only been on it a few months) and more important than the hypertropy, I’m really enjoying it. Its a very layout to a workout and the focus on big lifts is very rewarding. I should have pics coming up soon that show some progress.

Although if I’m being totally honest I probably have a bit too much of a fear of getting fat and have been limiting my results by limiting my food intake. I’ve hit the gas a liiiiitle bit to see how it goes.

Just trying to keep learning, lifting, and improving every day.

[Mutsanah]

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]cubuff2028 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Very cool, Perhaps I will keep one “original” layer day and use this for the other SGHP day. I had been doing “technique work” with 135 on my second day, so this will serve the same function with more emphasis on Hypertrophy which is my goal.

Glad to see a few other people could benefit from the thread as well.[/quote]

The power of technique work for hypertrophy should not be underestimated. I’ve been doing roughly 100 reps of snatches with only the barbell to start every workout (normally sets of 4-5) and I swear than my back and traps look a lot larger. [/quote]

Interesting. There might be lesson in here about the amount of practice necessary to hone technique… [/quote]

I have a confession to make: I was a lousy olympic lifter. But a strong lousy olympic lifter. Because of that strength, and the fact that I started training and competing in olympic lifting when I was already strong I never learned proper technique.

I was explosive and strong. So I could snatch and clean & jerk fairly decent weights. But I was all over the place. In one session I could snatch 130kg (285lbs) but miss 70kg (155lbs) 6 or 7 times.

To give you an example, I once power snatched 125kg (275lbs) from blocks for 3 reps, but couldn’t do a full snatch with 120kg (265lbs).

I could front squat 210kg (460lbs) and power clean 150kg (330lbs) from the hang for 5 reps but couldn’t clean more than 160kg (350lbs) and even that was iffy.

This year I decided to get back to the Olympic lifts. From my work coaching I gained a much deeper understanding of proper technique and I thought that I could become a much better lifter.

Add the fact that I did a snatch-grip high pull with 180kg at a height sufficient to snatch it and had power snatched from blocks 120kg. That should mean at least a 140kg (315lbs) if not a 150kg (330lbs) snatch. Yet, 100kg (225lbs) was hit and miss. Turns out that despite my better knowledge, I still had the same issue of using bad technique; I would do what we call a pull-and-pray. I would basically throw the bar up in the air either by jumping or doing a powerful hip punch and hope that the bar would fall in the right spot. Decent power, zero precision.

So I decided to let my ego at the door and do what I should have done years ago: drop the weight and learn perfect technique; then get a zillion perfect reps.

So I’m actually doing 100 full snatches with only the bar, focusing on perfect technique and rapid, crisp movement. In fact I wont allow myself to start adding weight until I have done 1500 reps. And that will be a minimal amount of weight. About 100lbs. I will have to perform 500 reps with that weight before going up to 135. Then doing 500 reps with 135 before going to 185. After 500 reps with 185 I’ll be ready to start focusing on lifting more weight.

In the meantime I can spend more energy improving strength and strength-capacity.[/quote]

Pull-and-pray…hmm that sounds vaguely familiar…

So, if you are working out alone, doing the 100 full snatches every workout with bar only, is it just proprioception that is telling you if body position is correct?

I also want to give this a go since technique is my weakest point at the moment, particularly in the snatch.

Thanks!
Muts

[Christian_Thibaudeau]

[quote]Mutsanah wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]cubuff2028 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Very cool, Perhaps I will keep one “original” layer day and use this for the other SGHP day. I had been doing “technique work” with 135 on my second day, so this will serve the same function with more emphasis on Hypertrophy which is my goal.

Glad to see a few other people could benefit from the thread as well.[/quote]

The power of technique work for hypertrophy should not be underestimated. I’ve been doing roughly 100 reps of snatches with only the barbell to start every workout (normally sets of 4-5) and I swear than my back and traps look a lot larger. [/quote]

Interesting. There might be lesson in here about the amount of practice necessary to hone technique… [/quote]

I have a confession to make: I was a lousy olympic lifter. But a strong lousy olympic lifter. Because of that strength, and the fact that I started training and competing in olympic lifting when I was already strong I never learned proper technique.

I was explosive and strong. So I could snatch and clean & jerk fairly decent weights. But I was all over the place. In one session I could snatch 130kg (285lbs) but miss 70kg (155lbs) 6 or 7 times.

To give you an example, I once power snatched 125kg (275lbs) from blocks for 3 reps, but couldn’t do a full snatch with 120kg (265lbs).

I could front squat 210kg (460lbs) and power clean 150kg (330lbs) from the hang for 5 reps but couldn’t clean more than 160kg (350lbs) and even that was iffy.

This year I decided to get back to the Olympic lifts. From my work coaching I gained a much deeper understanding of proper technique and I thought that I could become a much better lifter.

Add the fact that I did a snatch-grip high pull with 180kg at a height sufficient to snatch it and had power snatched from blocks 120kg. That should mean at least a 140kg (315lbs) if not a 150kg (330lbs) snatch. Yet, 100kg (225lbs) was hit and miss. Turns out that despite my better knowledge, I still had the same issue of using bad technique; I would do what we call a pull-and-pray. I would basically throw the bar up in the air either by jumping or doing a powerful hip punch and hope that the bar would fall in the right spot. Decent power, zero precision.

So I decided to let my ego at the door and do what I should have done years ago: drop the weight and learn perfect technique; then get a zillion perfect reps.

So I’m actually doing 100 full snatches with only the bar, focusing on perfect technique and rapid, crisp movement. In fact I wont allow myself to start adding weight until I have done 1500 reps. And that will be a minimal amount of weight. About 100lbs. I will have to perform 500 reps with that weight before going up to 135. Then doing 500 reps with 135 before going to 185. After 500 reps with 185 I’ll be ready to start focusing on lifting more weight.

In the meantime I can spend more energy improving strength and strength-capacity.[/quote]

Pull-and-pray…hmm that sounds vaguely familiar…

So, if you are working out alone, doing the 100 full snatches every workout with bar only, is it just proprioception that is telling you if body position is correct?

I also want to give this a go since technique is my weakest point at the moment, particularly in the snatch.

Thanks!
Muts[/quote]

Well, I know how to execute solid technique and what the perfect positions are. But under heavy loads I simply had the reflex to rely on strength and power. I also filmed myself the first 2 sessions to see what I looked like and what I needed to change. You MUST do that otherwise if you practice bad technique for 1000 reps it will be very hard to correct.

[sput79]

@CT: I love the just the bar idea. Coming from a powerlifting background & being used to lift a lot bigger weights the weights I have used for my Olympic lifts (from the box or hang) or recently from the floor for practice feel like baby weights, but I realize that form & technique are absolutely critical & it’s a lot easier to learn it right the first time than learn it wrong & relearn it right later.