Lateral Raise Form: How Important?

Training Bodybuilding
21

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Chris Colucci wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:

Figuring you meant “baby weights”, those two points probably go hand-in-hand. Some exercises require a relatively-lighter weight to be most effective. “Lift heavy shit” isn’t always the best motto for hypertrophy.

Yeah, if only poor Markus Rühl had known that before he started wasting his time with all those 450-700 lb smith shoulder presses…
I’m sure his delts would look much, much bigger now. (sry, couldn’t resist)

This is kinda rhetorical, but how much body English/momentum are you using? I find it hard to believe you’re lifting 25% bodyweight in a front raise with strict form, so it’s not a surprise your traps are getting worked.

Well, as long as his delts still do enough of the work and he doesn’t just let the weight drop down on the eccentric… But in all honesty, I’ve never been able to do laterals or front raises pain-free with any kind of weight (and you ultimately get there,

Even if you go super strict at all times) without a little bit of swing (not using your low back to actually boost the weight up except on the last few reps maybe, but letting yourself swing a little with the weight, kinda hard to explain. Same on BB curls or upright rows).

Also, if you can only progress from 20 pounds to 40 pounds with strict form (and after years of training), well…

I “feel” lateral raises in my abs, but that doesn’t mean I’m not primarily targeting my side delts. There are technique cues you could use to focus on the side delt, such as unilateral touch training, pinching the scapula back, trying to contract the lats during the lift (that’s another tip from Reeves who was all about de-emphasizing the traps), etc.

If only reeves had actually possessed big delts. Wide cavicular structure, all right. Big shoulders, less so.

Though the tips aren’t bad at all. I usually try to involve the rear delts in laterals or Upright rows… Seems to work very well in making the side delts work all the harder for some reason, and easier on the shoulders than strict side raises or upright rows (in my case at least).

If your traps are getting more work than whatever muscle you’re intending to work, you (or whomever) should check your exercise technique, exercise choice, and overall program.

I could agree with that.[/quote]

what do u usually do to replace side laterals cc?

22

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Has anyone actually found lateral raises to be effective or is everyone doing them just to follow the crowd?

Typically I find that my traps get most of the focus.
[/quote]

you’re using too much weight and not focusing on the shoulder then.

23

[quote]crod266 wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Chris Colucci wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:

Figuring you meant “baby weights”, those two points probably go hand-in-hand. Some exercises require a relatively-lighter weight to be most effective. “Lift heavy shit” isn’t always the best motto for hypertrophy.

Yeah, if only poor Markus Rühl had known that before he started wasting his time with all those 450-700 lb smith shoulder presses…
I’m sure his delts would look much, much bigger now. (sry, couldn’t resist)

This is kinda rhetorical, but how much body English/momentum are you using? I find it hard to believe you’re lifting 25% bodyweight in a front raise with strict form, so it’s not a surprise your traps are getting worked.

Well, as long as his delts still do enough of the work and he doesn’t just let the weight drop down on the eccentric…

But in all honesty, I’ve never been able to do laterals or front raises pain-free with any kind of weight (and you ultimately get there, even if you go super strict at all times) without a little bit of swing (not using your low back to actually boost the weight up except on the last few reps maybe,

But letting yourself swing a little with the weight, kinda hard to explain. Same on BB curls or upright rows).

Also, if you can only progress from 20 pounds to 40 pounds with strict form (and after years of training), well…

I “feel” lateral raises in my abs, but that doesn’t mean I’m not primarily targeting my side delts. There are technique cues you could use to focus on the side delt, such as unilateral touch training, pinching the scapula back, trying to contract the lats during the lift (that’s another tip from Reeves who was all about de-emphasizing the traps), etc.

If only reeves had actually possessed big delts. Wide cavicular structure, all right. Big shoulders, less so.

Though the tips aren’t bad at all. I usually try to involve the rear delts in laterals or Upright rows… Seems to work very well in making the side delts work all the harder for some reason, and easier on the shoulders than strict side raises or upright rows (in my case at least).

If your traps are getting more work than whatever muscle you’re intending to work, you (or whomever) should check your exercise technique, exercise choice, and overall program.

I could agree with that.

what do u usually do to replace side laterals cc?[/quote]

Don’t want to answer for him…but I know he is a DC follower and I believe they mainly hit their medial head with upright rows typically.

24

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Ever try doing a dumbbell shoulder press, and then at the top rotating to a pronated hand position and lowering all the way down laterally?

Hmm. That I have not. I don’t usually like lateral raises above shoulder-height, but coming off the press, the muscle tension could still be there. I’ll give them a whirl.

Another funky move I have tried (for the sake of trying funky moves) is a W-raise a.k.a. W-press a.k.a. Larry Scott press a.k.a partial Arnold press.

It’s basically the first half of an Arnold press, going from palms facing your mouth (about jaw height), rotating back and up so the dumbbells end up around the top of the head. Strange move and “shouldn’t” work the delts, but it does develop a burn pretty quickly.[/quote]

Yes, the Scott Press. I think you are supposed to lean forward slightly to make those effective. How did they work for you?

25

To take your traps out of the equation, simply push your hands/arms OUTWARDS (along the line of your arm obviously) away from the body while raising the bell up.

Also can be done with the hammer strength lateral raise machine (push hands/arms outwards while raising weights). Also whole variety here is a good thing, the idea way to do it is:

ask someone to raise his arm unloaded (or see how he pours out a pitcher of beer into a glass) Now load that line of action and you’re golden.
Personally I prefer upright rows and overhead delt flies (palms facing up at bottom of movement).

26

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
If you feel it in your traps, it’s simply a matter of dropping your poundages somewhat, and focusing on only moving from the shoulder joint. Also, there’s no reason to go above parallel to the floor.

Too many people feel they need to lift huge weights, and all that happens is that they never develop a good ‘capped’ look on their delts.

S
[/quote]

i already have a capped look in my delts. it was one of the first noticeable physique changes i made. i never had a problem with my shoulders, well outside i didnt but inside they are actually pretty fucked.

cant go behind my neck and they always crack. i think one is a little offset too but nonetheless ive never had aesthetic problems.

27

Here’s the best way to do them:

Sit backwards on a very high incline bench. Use lighter DB’s than usual, because it is harder this way. Slowly raise the DB’s (with a slight bend in the elbows) while always turning your pinkies up as you lift (as tribunaldude said) so that your elbows stay high. At the top try to turn your pinkies up as much as possible for a 1 second squeeze and then lower for 4 seconds. Do 8-15 rep range with only 30 seconds rest in between sets, because it is such a small, but oh so important muscle.

Don’t cheat and don’t lean back from the bench- the further you lean back the more you will work front delt. I have found that cables work best for rear deltoid when doing alternated bent over laterals after you do these lateral raises. (You will even feel your side delts with the cables then as well.)

28

[quote]Short Hoss wrote:
Don’t cheat, use light weight, do a lot of reps (e.g. 3x20).
[/quote]

For another option, laterals have always been a good movement for drop sets and running the rack, as no secondary muscle gives out first. Just another thing to try. Also, I find that when people use to heavy of weight and extreme bend in the arms, they also tend to employ a shrugging motion with their traps turning it into an entire upper back movement. Not necessarily a bad thing to mix it up, but for strict side delts, go with the straighter armed version lifting out to the sides more than in front.

29

[quote]crod266 wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Chris Colucci wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:

Figuring you meant “baby weights”, those two points probably go hand-in-hand. Some exercises require a relatively-lighter weight to be most effective. “Lift heavy shit” isn’t always the best motto for hypertrophy.

Yeah, if only poor Markus Rühl had known that before he started wasting his time with all those 450-700 lb smith shoulder presses…
I’m sure his delts would look much, much bigger now. (sry, couldn’t resist)

This is kinda rhetorical, but how much body English/momentum are you using? I find it hard to believe you’re lifting 25% bodyweight in a front raise with strict form, so it’s not a surprise your traps are getting worked.

Well, as long as his delts still do enough of the work and he doesn’t just let the weight drop down on the eccentric… But in all honesty, I’ve never been able to do laterals or front raises pain-free with any kind of weight (and you ultimately get there,

Even if you go super strict at all times) without a little bit of swing (not using your low back to actually boost the weight up except on the last few reps maybe, but letting yourself swing a little with the weight, kinda hard to explain. Same on BB curls or upright rows).

Also, if you can only progress from 20 pounds to 40 pounds with strict form (and after years of training), well…

I “feel” lateral raises in my abs, but that doesn’t mean I’m not primarily targeting my side delts. There are technique cues you could use to focus on the side delt, such as unilateral touch training, pinching the scapula back, trying to contract the lats during the lift (that’s another tip from Reeves who was all about de-emphasizing the traps), etc.

If only reeves had actually possessed big delts. Wide cavicular structure, all right. Big shoulders, less so.

Though the tips aren’t bad at all. I usually try to involve the rear delts in laterals or Upright rows… Seems to work very well in making the side delts work all the harder for some reason, and easier on the shoulders than strict side raises or upright rows (in my case at least).

If your traps are getting more work than whatever muscle you’re intending to work, you (or whomever) should check your exercise technique, exercise choice, and overall program.

I could agree with that.

what do u usually do to replace side laterals cc?[/quote]

Back when I was training regular bb, Upright rows (delt variant).

These days on DC it’s all overhead presses anyway…

Smith seated militaries from chin level(turning the thing into kind of a high-incline press… Do you call these front presses?),

Smith seated BTN presses from ear level…

Calf raise/Power Squat/ Vsquat -overhead presses (love 'em, but not for very tall guys I guess),
then the usual seated DB OHP’s and militaries…

And for the guys whose gym’s db’s only go up to 100 pounds or so:
Seated OHP’s facing the backrest of an incline bench (like a chest-supported ohp, backrest on max incline or slightly less).
Can only use about 60 percent of your regular DB OHP weight on these, but they work quite well.

30

[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
The Mighty Stu wrote:
If you feel it in your traps, it’s simply a matter of dropping your poundages somewhat, and focusing on only moving from the shoulder joint. Also, there’s no reason to go above parallel to the floor.

Too many people feel they need to lift huge weights, and all that happens is that they never develop a good ‘capped’ look on their delts.

S

i already have a capped look in my delts. it was one of the first noticeable physique changes i made. i never had a problem with my shoulders, well outside i didnt but inside they are actually pretty fucked.

cant go behind my neck and they always crack. i think one is a little offset too but nonetheless ive never had aesthetic problems.[/quote]

You do have decent delt ‘caps’ (checked your profile pics), but I think a lot of your taper is the result of your small waist. I’m not sure of your weight, but it get a lot harder to have such a taper as you get closer (and over) 200 lbs. I know that’s why I personally started killing my medial delts. From doing so much heavy PL work, there was no way I would ever have a 29" waist, so I needed to increase the width of my shoulder span. It needed to be evident, not just in a shirtless crab pose, but through even a heavy sweatshirt. I had my training partner yesteray tell me I was looking like Kevin Levrone, in that my delts seem to be overpowering my chest… Great for my delts (bad for my chest! -lol)

Even when I do back off on the laterals (or do the machine, or cables instead), 90 percent of the time I start my shoulder work with some sort of medial head movement before I do any pressing. I just find it’s better overall for the entire shoulder (IMHO)

S

31

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

I had my training partner yesteray tell me I was looking like Kevin Levrone
[/quote]

Really?

Sorry, Satan made me do it :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

32

Or did he mean that you look like Levrone does nowadays ? :wink:

Just kidding Stu.

Though damn, having Levrone’s lateral tri-head attachments, crazy thick bis and delt shape would be something…

33

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
The Mighty Stu wrote:
If you feel it in your traps, it’s simply a matter of dropping your poundages somewhat, and focusing on only moving from the shoulder joint. Also, there’s no reason to go above parallel to the floor.

Too many people feel they need to lift huge weights, and all that happens is that they never develop a good ‘capped’ look on their delts.

S

i already have a capped look in my delts. it was one of the first noticeable physique changes i made. i never had a problem with my shoulders, well outside i didnt but inside they are actually pretty fucked.

cant go behind my neck and they always crack. i think one is a little offset too but nonetheless ive never had aesthetic problems.

You do have decent delt ‘caps’ (checked your profile pics), but I think a lot of your taper is the result of your small waist. I’m not sure of your weight, but it get a lot harder to have such a taper as you get closer (and over) 200 lbs. I know that’s why I personally started killing my medial delts. From doing so much heavy PL work, there was no way I would ever have a 29" waist, so I needed to increase the width of my shoulder span. It needed to be evident, not just in a shirtless crab pose, but through even a heavy sweatshirt. I had my training partner yesteray tell me I was looking like Kevin Levrone, in that my delts seem to be overpowering my chest… Great for my delts (bad for my chest! -lol)

Even when I do back off on the laterals (or do the machine, or cables instead), 90 percent of the time I start my shoulder work with some sort of medial head movement before I do any pressing. I just find it’s better overall for the entire shoulder (IMHO)

S

[/quote]

im at about 200 now, weighed myself recently. my waist actually kinda sucks, its thin yeah but my obliques are developed which makes my midsection look blocky, like a verticle rectangle.

as i said, my shoulders are something that just developed naturally. same with my traps. same with my forearms, same with my tricep longhead…although i dont really have any pics of that.

and i actually think i look way bigger wearing a hoody than a wifebeater. the way it fits my traps and shoulders and tapers down makes it look like i have huge triceps.

34

I think lateral raises are the kind of exercise where everyone needs to find their own sweet spot. I use fairly loose form on my lateral raises, but I still make sure to feel it almost entirely in my delts.

I also really like doing widowmakers on lateral raises. After my normal sets I drop the weight and rep out to 20 reps, but not with a too light weight. At the end I am performing pretty much half reps but the emphasis is on keeping constant tension on the muscle even if that means a greatly shortened ROM. I think it’s almost like going beyond failure.+

I know people like Stu will be frowning upon this but as I said I feel it almost entirely on the desired muscle and it has me moaning like an abused hooker so I think it’s effective.

35

[quote]Der Candy wrote:
I think lateral raises are the kind of exercise where everyone needs to find their own sweet spot. I use fairly loose form on my lateral raises, but I still make sure to feel it almost entirely in my delts.

I also really like doing widowmakers on lateral raises. After my normal sets I drop the weight and rep out to 20 reps, but not with a too light weight. At the end I am performing pretty much half reps but the emphasis is on keeping constant tension on the muscle even if that means a greatly shortened ROM. I think it’s almost like going beyond failure.+

I know people like Stu will be frowning upon this but as I said I feel it almost entirely on the desired muscle and it has me moaning like an abused hooker so I think it’s effective.[/quote]

Well, most hookers at least get paid for moaning.

36

I have no problem with partials, especially if you’re focusing on the area of the ROM that stresses the delt, as opposed to allowing the traps to assist.

CC- Thanks so much for the humbling comments -lol

S

37

Arms parallel to floor? You mean I don’t have to get them all the way over my head? LoL! Sweeeeeet. Maybe I’ll be able to do more than 15lbs now… lol

38

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I have no problem with partials, especially if you’re focusing on the area of the ROM that stresses the delt, as opposed to allowing the traps to assist.

CC- Thanks so much for the humbling comments -lol

S
[/quote]

Hehe, sorry, just couldn’t resist. And as I’ve said, wouldn’t mind looking like Levrone either… With a better back, hams and calves, that is :wink:

39

For me keeping my arms straight jsut feels flat out dangerous when I am doing the movement. A lot of strain in all the wrong areas.

40

The worst part is that i watch a lot of bodybuilding videos and they all do it differently! Ronnie never has good form on most exercises!!!

I think i’ll just do it twice on shoulder day, Heavy(ish) cheat sets and then at the end lighter set of higher reps and perfect form(slight bend to protect joints)…