We can just take it to the T-Cell. I really don’t think you should have written that here. I already know how mist of these people think and all this will lead to is a bunch of newbs trying to avoid eating because they are scared of any fat gain at all. You will NOT be getting a ton of 240+lbs bodybuilders who are advanced and who understand what we are talking about.
Fair enough. Unfortunately, there’s some merit to your words.
I tend to forget how easily beginners in the iron game do manage to sidetrack themselves.
I’ll edit my previous posts and re-post them/my general opinion on the matter discussed in the T-Cell.
I’ll go and do something more productive, now, and head to the gym.
[quote]Jaybee wrote:
[quote]Rocky2 wrote:
Well, awhile back I believe it was Dr Clay Hyght who was prepping a man for a competition, and it became apparent his chest was lagging. They greatly increased the frequency and were able to bring it up to an acceptable level.
Here you go:
That is a fascinating article!!! Kudos to you for bringing it to my attention!! Sadly now I come to think about it, I have THREE areas that lag (Arms/Glutes + Traps worst).
I think on balance I should content myself with cutting, but dammit, I hate the thought of leaving work undone.
Life is so much more HAPPY when bulking.
Thanks again for the article Rock, good on you mate.[/quote]
Yeh I get where you’re coming from, when I first cut I realised that I needed to bring up my lagging arms, glutes, hamstrings, traps, delts, forearms, back, thighs, calves etc…
On a more serious note (lol), do you think that maybe you have this whole bulking/cutting idea backwards?
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
[quote]Jaybee wrote:
[quote]Rocky2 wrote:
Well, awhile back I believe it was Dr Clay Hyght who was prepping a man for a competition, and it became apparent his chest was lagging. They greatly increased the frequency and were able to bring it up to an acceptable level.
Here you go:
That is a fascinating article!!! Kudos to you for bringing it to my attention!! Sadly now I come to think about it, I have THREE areas that lag (Arms/Glutes + Traps worst).
I think on balance I should content myself with cutting, but dammit, I hate the thought of leaving work undone.
Life is so much more HAPPY when bulking.
Thanks again for the article Rock, good on you mate.[/quote]
Yeh I get where you’re coming from, when I first cut I realised that I needed to bring up my lagging arms, glutes, hamstrings, traps, delts, forearms, back, thighs, calves etc…
On a more serious note (lol), do you think that maybe you have this whole bulking/cutting idea backwards?[/quote]
This, OP is probably just cutting and feeling shit that he is getting smaller, three muscle groups that suck does not make them lagging bodyparts. It just means that your physique is not where you want it to be.
[quote]Doyle wrote:
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
[quote]Jaybee wrote:
[quote]Rocky2 wrote:
Well, awhile back I believe it was Dr Clay Hyght who was prepping a man for a competition, and it became apparent his chest was lagging. They greatly increased the frequency and were able to bring it up to an acceptable level.
Here you go:
That is a fascinating article!!! Kudos to you for bringing it to my attention!! Sadly now I come to think about it, I have THREE areas that lag (Arms/Glutes + Traps worst).
I think on balance I should content myself with cutting, but dammit, I hate the thought of leaving work undone.
Life is so much more HAPPY when bulking.
Thanks again for the article Rock, good on you mate.[/quote]
Yeh I get where you’re coming from, when I first cut I realised that I needed to bring up my lagging arms, glutes, hamstrings, traps, delts, forearms, back, thighs, calves etc…
On a more serious note (lol), do you think that maybe you have this whole bulking/cutting idea backwards?[/quote]
This, OP is probably just cutting and feeling shit that he is getting smaller, three muscle groups that suck does not make them lagging bodyparts. It just means that your physique is not where you want it to be.[/quote]
What are you basing that on? His non existent stats? Or his non existent pic? Or maybe from the vague OP?
I’ve not used words more than the OP (“lagging body parts”), apart from the obvious exaggeration.
Don’t mean to be negative, but on here you have to assume the worse until proven otherwise. There’s been far too many threads of people asking whether they should cut more (whilst looking like they need feeding), or threads asking how to bring up their biceps on their 150lb frame etc…
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
[quote]Doyle wrote:
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
Yeh I get where you’re coming from, when I first cut I realised that I needed to bring up my lagging arms, glutes, hamstrings, traps, delts, forearms, back, thighs, calves etc…
On a more serious note (lol), do you think that maybe you have this whole bulking/cutting idea backwards?[/quote]
This, OP is probably just cutting and feeling shit that he is getting smaller, three muscle groups that suck does not make them lagging bodyparts. It just means that your physique is not where you want it to be.[/quote]
What are you basing that on? His non existent stats? Or his non existent pic? Or maybe from the vague OP?
I’ve not used words more than the OP (“lagging body parts”), apart from the obvious exaggeration.
Don’t mean to be negative, but on here you have to assume the worse until proven otherwise. There’s been far too many threads of people asking whether they should cut more (whilst looking like they need feeding), or threads asking how to bring up their biceps on their 150lb frame etc…[/quote]
I’m sorry maybe I shouldn’t have quoted your post. I agree with your sentiment.
My point was just that you can have one or two lagging bodyparts but once you start saying that you are unhappy with three or more then thats not lagging bodyparts thats a lagging body lol
^ Glad we’re on the same page lol
A few alarm bells kind of ring here on this thread. For one, most who need to cut to the degree of it messing with their head are usually quite advanced already, they’re at the point where they’ve already added appreciable size. This in itself is pretty rare on here, and most with a physique that developed would not be shy to show it. But other than that, someone who’s built up appreciable size would usually have more experience to know about the OP’s question in the first place.
For all those in-between (I include myself in this category), they simply need to do a sensible bulk with the occasional damage control. Depending on genetics, a bulk would include different things for different people (maybe less carbs, maybe cardio etc)…anything that allows them to do it long term. Damage control could simply mean holding your weight for a several weeks without trying to push it upwards, or after a decent period, doing a little trim…but not to the point where you notice drastic negative changes.
This is what I meant by maybe the OP having bulking/cutting backwards. Many fall into the trap of seeing it in black and white, doing both bulking and cutting to the extreme (in short cycles) thinking that you can only be in one phase or the other, and they end up getting no-where fast. They do a terrible bulk for say 3 months, feel fat, then try to get shredded only to find out they didn’t build much muscle. The next thing that happens is they go around telling people that bulking doesn’t work (when in reality, they never understood it in the first place).
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
^ Glad we’re on the same page lol
A few alarm bells kind of ring here on this thread. For one, most who need to cut to the degree of it messing with their head are usually quite advanced already, they’re at the point where they’ve already added appreciable size. This in itself is pretty rare on here, and most with a physique that developed would not be shy to show it. But other than that, someone who’s built up appreciable size would usually have more experience to know about the OP’s question in the first place.
For all those in-between (I include myself in this category), they simply need to do a sensible bulk with the occasional damage control. Depending on genetics, a bulk would include different things for different people (maybe less carbs, maybe cardio etc)…anything that allows them to do it long term. Damage control could simply mean holding your weight for a several weeks without trying to push it upwards, or after a decent period, doing a little trim…but not to the point where you notice drastic negative changes.
This is what I meant by maybe the OP having bulking/cutting backwards. Many fall into the trap of seeing it in black and white, doing both bulking and cutting to the extreme (in short cycles) thinking that you can only be in one phase or the other, and they end up getting no-where fast. They do a terrible bulk for say 3 months, feel fat, then try to get shredded only to find out they didn’t build much muscle. The next thing that happens is they go around telling people that bulking doesn’t work (when in reality, they never understood it in the first place).[/quote]
Good post,
I guess you could say i’m in damage control. been gaining slowly but steadily for 2 and a half years, in the past I have held a weight for a few weeks when my waist blew out a bit. Now for the first time I think I will actually need to loose a little weight.
I hit a high of 207 pounds a few weeks ago but was fatter than I want to be so I’m going to drop up to 12 pounds (less if I feel I’m as lean as I want to be) before I push on to 220.
It is hard though when you get conflicting advice. I’m going to have some photos taken next sat and I’ll make a thread then.
I’m sure some on here will say there is no need for me to cut but on the other hand the bodybuilder thats going to take my pics thinks its better to stay a bit leaner.
I’m close to the limit of how fat I want to be and I want to get a bit leaner so I can identify where I need to put most of my efforts in during the next bulk.
Thanks.
Yeh it’s perfectly natural to experiment first and figure out your limits and tweaks. Some over-shoot their first bulks (which is fine because you know where you stand next time, and subsequent bulks become better quality).
This is what I find many advanced bodybuilders tend to “forget”. You don’t have to get it 100% right the first time, and everyone learns better doing it themselves and need to find out their own dietary rules and regimen etc. Some forward movement with mistakes is better than obsessing over what may be more “efficient” and not moving far at all.
Of course, not saying your friend is wrong, just bringing light to something I’ve noticed…
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
You don’t have to get it 100% right the first time, and everyone learns better doing it themselves and need to find out their own dietary rules and regimen etc. Some forward movement with mistakes is better than obsessing over what may be more “efficient” and not moving far at all.
[/quote]
One of the best statements I’ve seen posted. The absolute TRUTH. The lifters that figure this out are the ones that advance. How strong, large and lean you you become will ultimately be determined by the depth of your self-awareness.
[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:
[quote]Jaybee wrote:
[quote]coolusername wrote:
Anyone ever tried using a cheat/high carb/high(er) calorie day on the day they train a specific body part?[/quote]
Never occurred to me, but that’s an intriguing idea, given that even in the bulking phase, your 8 hours of sleep is effectively a cut.
It did occur to me to become a “Bicep Boy” for the duration of the cut, ie do maintenance work for the rest of my body, quite literally without strain, and absolutely hammer my bi’s/tri’s. I really wrinkle my nose at the thought doing any training half-heartedly, but at the moment it’s all I can think that might help. [/quote]
Maintenance work for the rest of your body, without strain, during a cut, will definitely mean lots of muscle loss. If you really have to cut, why not work everything out hard and worry about bringing up your arms when you can eat again?
[/quote]
Hi to all, firstly sorry I’m late back to the party here, I’m doing the jobs of 3 guys here…
G17 - Well, I’m advanced enough to know that maintenance, as the name implies, means the preservation of existing lean muscle stock, and that you don’t actualy preserve it, at least to any appreciable degree, by not straining. I know you need to keep the weights heavy and the lifts compound regardless of your calories. You NEED to strain to make progress, whether adding muscle or dropping flab, that’s a fundamental. Now, I’m open to correction on the following, but I believe the line between straining on a bulk, versus a cut, is that you frequently go to failure on the former, but you don’t touch it on the latter. Strength gains might happen on a cut, but they aren’t forced into existence, as they are on a bulk.
All - the horrendous truth is that for most of my life I’ve had no idea about proper diet apart from “White meat is good, red meat is baaad!”, nor about gm’s of protein or how calories or the difference between fried and grilled…the list goes on, but the worst of itis…
I have a 41" waist (widest circumference) at 5’10.5" and 223, and that is down from a lifetime high of 250Ibs, so I think we can all agree, the cut is a must. Too many years of boozy meetings with clients and celebrating with family have proven good for business, but taken a severe toll. As for me I just want to see my abs, one time, in my life before June, and then bulk.
My stats are (I’ll see if I can arrange a pic for you fellas):
Neck 18"
Chest 51" (very prominent ‘V’ shape)
Waist 41" (and falling)
Upper Arms 17" (genetically small across family)
Forearms (13.8"
Thighs 28"
Calves 18"
As for lagging bodyparts, the arms are explained above. I have hardly ever touched my traps except with some upright rows I did in the 90’s which caused Bursitis in my Supraspinatus, which I only recently diagnosed and am bringing under control - just recently able to resume benching without pain. Which also further explains my Triceps - these are in fact only slightly stronger than my my Biceps, which I imagine means they are are the main reason my arms are undersized, I suppose they should be at least 1.5x as strong. I was doing a lot of specialist work for them last year, lots of varying grips to emphasise differing heads, but at a time when my diet wasn’t coherent at all. I’d also like better upper glutes, and for some reason mine don’t fire until at almost the top of the DL.
So as you see, it’s a very “no-mans land” case with conflicting factors:
-
Lagging bodyparts during cutting, one almost untouched (traps) while tri’s/glutes just underexploited;
-
Diet only recently brought to scratch (40/40/20, 270/300gms with 500Kcal deficit x 6 days, + 1 refeeed of maintenance);
-
Also good muscle memory - I blow up quite rapidly after a layoff of a few months.
My regime, each movement 3 sets of 6 reps;
Monday - Legs (Squats or Dl) + Leg extensions + Leg curls + Calf raises;
Tuesday - Pull (B/o rows, Seated pulls, Lat pull-down)
Wednesday - Push (Flat bench, Incline Bench, Chest flys;
Thursday - Free
Friday - Free
So whilst we agree - keep the calories in deficit, keep the protein high, the lifts heavy, compound and with effort, would the above bodyparts be bigger in the LONG term if I started targeting them NOW, while on the cut with extra isolation (in addition to the above compounds) during the free Thursdays and Fridays, ?
[quote]Jaybee wrote:
[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:
[quote]Jaybee wrote:
[quote]coolusername wrote:
Anyone ever tried using a cheat/high carb/high(er) calorie day on the day they train a specific body part?[/quote]
Never occurred to me, but that’s an intriguing idea, given that even in the bulking phase, your 8 hours of sleep is effectively a cut.
It did occur to me to become a “Bicep Boy” for the duration of the cut, ie do maintenance work for the rest of my body, quite literally without strain, and absolutely hammer my bi’s/tri’s. I really wrinkle my nose at the thought doing any training half-heartedly, but at the moment it’s all I can think that might help. [/quote]
Maintenance work for the rest of your body, without strain, during a cut, will definitely mean lots of muscle loss. If you really have to cut, why not work everything out hard and worry about bringing up your arms when you can eat again?
[/quote]
Hi to all, firstly sorry I’m late back to the party here, I’m doing the jobs of 3 guys here…
G17 - Well, I’m advanced enough to know that maintenance, as the name implies, means the preservation of existing lean muscle stock, and that you don’t actualy preserve it, at least to any appreciable degree, by not straining. I know you need to keep the weights heavy and the lifts compound regardless of your calories. You NEED to strain to make progress, whether adding muscle or dropping flab, that’s a fundamental. Now, I’m open to correction on the following, but I believe the line between straining on a bulk, versus a cut, is that you frequently go to failure on the former, but you don’t touch it on the latter. Strength gains might happen on a cut, but they aren’t forced into existence, as they are on a bulk.
All - the horrendous truth is that for most of my life I’ve had no idea about proper diet apart from “White meat is good, red meat is baaad!”, nor about gm’s of protein or how calories or the difference between fried and grilled…the list goes on, but the worst of itis…
I have a 41" waist (widest circumference) at 5’10.5" and 223, and that is down from a lifetime high of 250Ibs, so I think we can all agree, the cut is a must. Too many years of boozy meetings with clients and celebrating with family have proven good for business, but taken a severe toll. As for me I just want to see my abs, one time, in my life before June, and then bulk.
My stats are (I’ll see if I can arrange a pic for you fellas):
Neck 18"
Chest 51" (very prominent ‘V’ shape)
Waist 41" (and falling)
Upper Arms 17" (genetically small across family)
Forearms (13.8"
Thighs 28"
Calves 18"
As for lagging bodyparts, the arms are explained above. I have hardly ever touched my traps except with some upright rows I did in the 90’s which caused Bursitis in my Supraspinatus, which I only recently diagnosed and am bringing under control - just recently able to resume benching without pain. Which also further explains my Triceps - these are in fact only slightly stronger than my my Biceps, which I imagine means they are are the main reason my arms are undersized, I suppose they should be at least 1.5x as strong. I was doing a lot of specialist work for them last year, lots of varying grips to emphasise differing heads, but at a time when my diet wasn’t coherent at all. I’d also like better upper glutes, and for some reason mine don’t fire until at almost the top of the DL.
So as you see, it’s a very “no-mans land” case with conflicting factors:
-
Lagging bodyparts during cutting, one almost untouched (traps) while tri’s/glutes just underexploited;
-
Diet only recently brought to scratch (40/40/20, 270/300gms with 500Kcal deficit x 6 days, + 1 refeeed of maintenance);
-
Also good muscle memory - I blow up quite rapidly after a layoff of a few months.
My regime, each movement 3 sets of 6 reps;
Monday - Legs (Squats or Dl) + Leg extensions + Leg curls + Calf raises;
Tuesday - Pull (B/o rows, Seated pulls, Lat pull-down)
Wednesday - Push (Flat bench, Incline Bench, Chest flys;
Thursday - Free
Friday - Free
So whilst we agree - keep the calories in deficit, keep the protein high, the lifts heavy, compound and with effort, would the above bodyparts be bigger in the LONG term if I started targeting them NOW, while on the cut with extra isolation (in addition to the above compounds) during the free Thursdays and Fridays, ?
[/quote]
My opinion for what its worth is that YES you should be doing isolation work for your arms and traps. Your upper glutes? I dont know what your going to try and do to isolate that lol
However thats is just what you should be doing all the time, I dont think you should go and try and hit your arms with a higher frequency or anything.
Just focus on getting lean for now, whilst not neglecting and bodyparts. You can probably expect your strength to keep going up a bit and to add some muscle if you are only wanting to get your abs out and you do this right.
Doyle - you voted, “Start isolation work NOW”, thanks. But would you say that the size of those bodyparts, this time next year, would be bigger if I starting isolating them during the cut? Or should I wait for bulking?
Personally I’m more inclined to start now if only for the sheer feel-good factor that comes from me walking around with them being larger. But I’d sacrifice that, happily, IF waiting for the calorie surplus meant they were bigger this time next year.
[quote]Jaybee wrote:
Doyle - you voted, “Start isolation work NOW”, thanks. But would you say that the size of those bodyparts, this time next year, would be bigger if I starting isolating them during the cut? Or should I wait for bulking?
Personally I’m more inclined to start now if only for the sheer feel-good factor that comes from me walking around with them being larger. But I’d sacrifice that, happily, IF waiting for the calorie surplus meant they were bigger this time next year.[/quote]
I would say yes, its more than likely that if you haven’t been training arms and traps directly that if you start now they will be bigger in a years time than if you ignor direct work for another few months.
[quote]Doyle wrote:
I would say yes, its more than likely that if you haven’t been training arms and traps directly that if you start now they will be bigger in a years time than if you ignor direct work for another few months.
[/quote]
Thanks mate, that would be my vote too .
My fundamental rationale supporting it is that bicep boys (and bicep men) abound who build large arms without increasing either protein or calories significantly. Although the argument exists that youthful Testosterone enables this, the same phenomenon is seen with women who work a particular bodypart, usually glutes or calves, for the purpose of what they call “firming up”, but what is in fact building.
They often bring them up to size, usually on haphazard or even yo-yo/binge diets. My diet is far better, and I’ve still got a lot more natural Test than they do.
I propose to set aside a day, perhaps the Friday, to isolate Traps/Glutes. I will throw in arms depending on how my push/pull days go, as I intend for them to be pretty well hammered on Tu/We. Also, I’d nominate that Isolation day as refeed, and run a calorific surplus that one day of the week.
Interesting direction this threads gone in, I thought it’d be a one page wonder.
Makes things a lot clearer when you have stats etc. With your build I’d say it’s “easier” to bring those bodyparts up (compared to some ‘ectomorph’ who’s scared to eat).
Just to eco what Doyle said, yeh you will see a difference in those muscle groups even on a “cut” especially since you haven’t properly trained them before. You should train almost the same in either situation (calorie surplus/deficit). You just wouldn’t expect brilliant gains on a cut.
When trimming, you sometimes lower volume slightly. Also, it’s not so much a case of consciously NOT going to failure (which sometimes can’t be helped), it’s a case of not being concerned with making personal records on the lift while trimming.
If it makes you feel better, I used to have a 42" waist - something I think many would find hard to believe when they see my avatar…I wish I had a picture.
Seems like you have the diet sussed. Just remember not to stay on a calorie deficit for too long (e.g. 16+ weeks) without some breaks (which will “re-ignite” your metabolism and prevent muscle catabolism). And don’t forget to add cardio if gains stall badly - don’t try to starve the fat off…exercise works better at burning fat rather than lowering calories (when calories get to a certain point, ie dangerously low).
PS - about the glutes training; lunges work the upper glutes really well (highish reps/set like 12-15). Not that I wanted big upper glutes or anything, it just happened when I did them (and plenty women at my work noticed it too, much to my wife’s dismay haha). Also with direct training/exercises, don’t be afraid to experiment with higher reps per set (e.g. 8+), many find this pretty effective.
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
You don’t have to get it 100% right the first time, and everyone learns better doing it themselves and need to find out their own dietary rules and regimen etc. Some forward movement with mistakes is better than obsessing over what may be more “efficient” and not moving far at all.
[/quote]
One of the best statements I’ve seen posted. The absolute TRUTH. The lifters that figure this out are the ones that advance. How strong, large and lean you you become will ultimately be determined by the depth of your self-awareness.
[/quote]
Thanks!
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
Interesting direction this threads gone in, I thought it’d be a one page wonder.[/quote]
Glad to surprise you! At one point I thought so too, and sadly I sort of abandoned any hope of getting a well-founded answer, right before the heavy-duty respondants starting pouring in.
I should have a pic up today…watch this space.
I’m not sure, as those bodyparts are competing with the rest of me for regeneration, which isn’t the case with a Bicep Boy/Glute Gal.
[quote]Just to eco what Doyle said, yeh you will see a difference in those muscle groups even on a “cut” especially since you haven’t properly trained them before. You should train almost the same in either situation (calorie surplus/deficit). You just wouldn’t expect brilliant gains on a cut.
When trimming, you sometimes lower volume slightly. Also, it’s not so much a case of consciously NOT going to failure (which sometimes can’t be helped), it’s a case of not being concerned with making personal records on the lift while trimming.
[/quote]
Gotcha, on all counts
You serious? Your profile states you came up all the way from 130Ibs, which is damn impressive no matter how you cut it, that’s over 80Ibs in 4 years!!
Come to think of it, you sure you really did that??!
Yep. Got a bit of cardio going on now, I do a very quick (30 seconds) sprint every morning mainly to rev up the metabolism but with the added benefit of looking after my old ticker, and also a second run 1 hour after training Legs, which helps reduce DOMS. I will kick that up as I cut deeper into the flab, but I don’t want to end up as one of those guys who runs through forests.
LOL! You can’t ask for higher praise than that! On that note I’ve observed women smiling at me more, a lot more, unprompted, as the weight comes off. I’m not married so you can imagine it’s one of the most wonderful feelings in the world, truly.
What do you do mate? And how do I get a job in a company like yours where girls actually VOICE their appreciation of a good physique??!!??
Indeed, I’m very much of the opinion that, on a mediocre bodypart, the “If-you’re-feeling-strong-just-carry-on” school of thought is best. On those I will NOT be afraid to go to failure, I’ll train exactly like I’m bulking.
Thanks! Well I did cheat a little on the profile…I only counted the serious years haha.
Ignored the periods where I wondered whether training my type z fibres on week 34, and then my type b fibres on week 55.5 would get me from 12 inch biceps to 14 inch ones any faster…all while still staying at 139lbs.
Then came the phase where I said;
“stuff it! I’m gona eat everything in sight even if it’s saturated fat…and I’m not going to keep switching my routine as long as I’m getting stronger”.
Gains came, not that lean (especially first bulk), but they came and that was the start of my epiphany. I tamed the carbs, got in the gym more than 3 days a week (stopped neglecting bodyparts, added a bit more exercise volume), kept eating enough but not over-doing it, and quality gains followed…
The women at my work are very open when you get to know them, the conversations I over-hear sometimes makes me feel I should be paying for it!
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
PS - about the glutes training; lunges work the upper glutes really well (highish reps/set like 12-15). Not that I wanted big upper glutes or anything, it just happened when I did them (and plenty women at my work noticed it too, much to my wife’s dismay haha). Also with direct training/exercises, don’t be afraid to experiment with higher reps per set (e.g. 8+), many find this pretty effective.[/quote]
I noticed this espeacially with walking lunges.