While I do think that boycotting Arizona is immature and most likely ineffective, that doesn’t mean the bill doesn’t suck.
I’ve read it, you’ve probably read it too. It DOES encourage racial profiling, and it will require latinos to carry around papers verifying their status as American citizens. While it won’t be anywhere near as bad as it was in Nazi germany, remember that jews too had to carry around their papers, hence the comparison.
The fact that 60% of Americans agree with the law means nothing, because we are talking about a MINORITY GROUP that the law is affecting. People tend not to give a damn if it doesn’t affect them.
While I’m all for cracking down on illegal immigrants, this is not the way to go about it. If your race is reason enough for a policeman to harass you (which you know is going to happen at some point), then something is wrong. The bill is flawed.
[quote]Enray wrote:
While I do think that boycotting Arizona is immature and most likely ineffective, that doesn’t mean the bill doesn’t suck.
I’ve read it, you’ve probably read it too. It DOES encourage racial profiling, and it will require latinos to carry around papers verifying their status as American citizens. While it won’t be anywhere near as bad as it was in Nazi germany, remember that jews too had to carry around their papers, hence the comparison.
The fact that 60% of Americans agree with the law means nothing, because we are talking about a MINORITY GROUP that the law is affecting. People tend not to give a damn if it doesn’t affect them.
While I’m all for cracking down on illegal immigrants, this is not the way to go about it. If your race is reason enough for a policeman to harass you (which you know is going to happen at some point), then something is wrong. The bill is flawed.
[/quote]
You would do well to read the law. You will find that among these ‘papers’ that verify a persons immigration status is a state-issued drivers license or ID card. This is required to drive a motor vehicle, and purchase alcohol and tobacco products. Any comparison with Nazi Germany is nothing short of hyperbole. And that’s being generous.
As to racial profiling, the bill specifically states a police officer cannot use race as the sole criterion for making lawful contact, and thus inquiring into the legal status of the suspect.
I agree with you that, just because a bill is popular, it does not make it right. It sure as shit doesn’t prevent it from being right though. In this instance, I beleive it satisfies requirements to be both popular and correct.
(a) Every law enforcement agency in California shall fully
cooperate with the United States Immigration and Naturalization Service regarding any person who is arrested if he or she is suspected of being present in the United States in violation of federal immigration laws.
(b) With respect to any such person who is arrested, and suspected of being present in the United States in violation of federal immigration laws, every law enforcement agency shall do the following:
(1) Attempt to verify the legal status of such person as a citizen of the United States, an alien lawfully admitted as a permanent resident, an alien lawfully admitted for a temporary period of time or as an alien who is present in the United States in violation of immigration laws.
The verification process may include, but shall not be limited to, questioning the person regarding his or her date and
place of birth, and entry into the United States, and demanding documentation to indicate his or her legal status.
(2) Notify the person of his or her apparent status as an alien who is present in the United States in violation of federal immigration laws and inform him or her that, apart from any criminal justice proceedings, he or she must either obtain legal status or leave the United States.
(3) Notify the Attorney General of California and the United States Immigration and Naturalization Service of the apparent illegal status and provide any additional information that may be requested by any other public entity.
(c) Any legislative, administrative, or other action by a city, county, or other legally authorized local governmental entity with jurisdictional boundaries, or by a law enforcement agency, to prevent or limit the cooperation required by subdivision (a) is expressly
prohibited.
So does this mean that arizona can sue California and LA for breaking their own laws?
[quote]Enray wrote:
While I do think that boycotting Arizona is immature and most likely ineffective, that doesn’t mean the bill doesn’t suck.
I’ve read it, you’ve probably read it too. It DOES encourage racial profiling, and it will require latinos to carry around papers verifying their status as American citizens. While it won’t be anywhere near as bad as it was in Nazi germany, remember that jews too had to carry around their papers, hence the comparison.
The fact that 60% of Americans agree with the law means nothing, because we are talking about a MINORITY GROUP that the law is affecting. People tend not to give a damn if it doesn’t affect them.
While I’m all for cracking down on illegal immigrants, this is not the way to go about it. If your race is reason enough for a policeman to harass you (which you know is going to happen at some point), then something is wrong. The bill is flawed.
[/quote]
You would do well to read the law. You will find that among these ‘papers’ that verify a persons immigration status is a state-issued drivers license or ID card. This is required to drive a motor vehicle, and purchase alcohol and tobacco products. Any comparison with Nazi Germany is nothing short of hyperbole. And that’s being generous.
As to racial profiling, the bill specifically states a police officer cannot use race as the sole criterion for making lawful contact, and thus inquiring into the legal status of the suspect.
I agree with you that, just because a bill is popular, it does not make it right. It sure as shit doesn’t prevent it from being right though. In this instance, I beleive it satisfies requirements to be both popular and correct.
Any other criticisms of the bill?[/quote]
The bill does state that a cop can’t use race as a sole criterion, but the problem is that there’s nothing else to judge it by! Tell me, what does an illegal immigrant look like?
And yes, of course being compared with Nazi Germany is a hyperbole (i’m sure they don’t have to worry about being gassed), and I’ll admit that I didn’t know that all you needed was a drivers license; i assumed that since those were so easy to fake that there was another part to that lol.
I think most people’s problem with it (including mine) is that like I said, saying that you’re not allowed to judge whether or not someone is here illegally by race won’t prevent it from happening, especially when there’s nothing else to go by.
[quote]Enray wrote:
While I do think that boycotting Arizona is immature and most likely ineffective, that doesn’t mean the bill doesn’t suck.
I’ve read it, you’ve probably read it too. It DOES encourage racial profiling, and it will require latinos to carry around papers verifying their status as American citizens. While it won’t be anywhere near as bad as it was in Nazi germany, remember that jews too had to carry around their papers, hence the comparison.
The fact that 60% of Americans agree with the law means nothing, because we are talking about a MINORITY GROUP that the law is affecting. People tend not to give a damn if it doesn’t affect them.
While I’m all for cracking down on illegal immigrants, this is not the way to go about it. If your race is reason enough for a policeman to harass you (which you know is going to happen at some point), then something is wrong. The bill is flawed.
[/quote]
Ok, great.
So how would YOU solve the crisis that Arizona’s people are experiencing?
Or, should they just “live with it” because attempts like this offend the sensibilties of folks like you? [/quote]
Calm down buddy.
Anyway, to be honest I don’t know how I would solve it. It’s a very complicated problem, but I’m not willing to settle. Once we start going down the road I think the bill is moving towards, it’s hard to turn around, so we have to be careful when coming up with solutions to this problem. Once you start making profiling acceptable, you start a dangerous pattern.
I think that’s a terrible attitude to take when dealing with people’s civil liberties. What starts out as a simple “inconvenience” again can turn into something ugly down the line.
Yes, something needs to be done, everyone agrees on that. And I commend Arizona on trying to curb the problem, but again, the bill is flawed.
[quote]Enray wrote:
Once you start making profiling acceptable, you start a dangerous pattern.
[/quote]
You’ve been asked what you would do, so I won’t make a repeat of it. I’ll provide you your answer. I’m not trying to pick a fight with you, but there really isn’t an alternative answer, based on your posts. You’d do nothing.
It’s already been pointed out that the bill bars racial profiling as a tool. That the officer(s) must have made lawful contact in the first place. For example, driver was pulled over for running a stop sign. Since you still object, despite those requirements, there’s absolutely nothing YOU would be able to provide as an alternative. In short, you are why AZ has had to take matters into their own hands.
My second point involves your racial profiling, directly. Today a cop might decide to randomly stop and detain blacks, or mexicans, or australians, or methodists, or whatever, because he wants to catch identity theives. So, he harrases whatever group he’s decided would yield the the most would be identity thieves, looking to see if they’re carrying ID’s and CCards that don’t match the detainee’s own identity.
Do we stop enforcing the laws designed to catch/put away identity thieves because some cop(s) are doing it wrong? I don’t think you’d suggest that. If I’m correct, why would you suggest it be the case for the illegal activity that AZ is trying to get under control?
I’ve been conducting my own personal boycott on mexico for about 5 years now, I will not buy anything made there, especially clothes, nor have I vacationed or plan to take one to the dirty down south. About the only thing mexican I still partake in is their food.
How about a law that focuses on the real problem: The fact that as long as jobs are given to illegals, they will come. They aren’t stealing jobs, it’s not stealing when they it’s given to you. Why would a business hire someone with no english comprehension when for the same wage they can hire an english speaker? The answer is, they won’t, they’ll hire them for a lower wage.
As long as mexicans are offered jobs here by American employers, they will cross the border. Until employers are targeted and a fence is built the problem will continue. As for the law, just cut out the “it’s not profiling” that is as much bullshit as Faux News and “enhanced interrogation.”
[quote]Enray wrote:
While I do think that boycotting Arizona is immature and most likely ineffective, that doesn’t mean the bill doesn’t suck.
I’ve read it, you’ve probably read it too. It DOES encourage racial profiling, and it will require latinos to carry around papers verifying their status as American citizens. While it won’t be anywhere near as bad as it was in Nazi germany, remember that jews too had to carry around their papers, hence the comparison.
The fact that 60% of Americans agree with the law means nothing, because we are talking about a MINORITY GROUP that the law is affecting. People tend not to give a damn if it doesn’t affect them.
While I’m all for cracking down on illegal immigrants, this is not the way to go about it. If your race is reason enough for a policeman to harass you (which you know is going to happen at some point), then something is wrong. The bill is flawed.
[/quote]
You would do well to read the law. You will find that among these ‘papers’ that verify a persons immigration status is a state-issued drivers license or ID card. This is required to drive a motor vehicle, and purchase alcohol and tobacco products. Any comparison with Nazi Germany is nothing short of hyperbole. And that’s being generous.
As to racial profiling, the bill specifically states a police officer cannot use race as the sole criterion for making lawful contact, and thus inquiring into the legal status of the suspect.
I agree with you that, just because a bill is popular, it does not make it right. It sure as shit doesn’t prevent it from being right though. In this instance, I beleive it satisfies requirements to be both popular and correct.
Any other criticisms of the bill?[/quote]
The bill does state that a cop can’t use race as a sole criterion, but the problem is that there’s nothing else to judge it by! Tell me, what does an illegal immigrant look like?
And yes, of course being compared with Nazi Germany is a hyperbole (i’m sure they don’t have to worry about being gassed), and I’ll admit that I didn’t know that all you needed was a drivers license; i assumed that since those were so easy to fake that there was another part to that lol.
I think most people’s problem with it (including mine) is that like I said, saying that you’re not allowed to judge whether or not someone is here illegally by race won’t prevent it from happening, especially when there’s nothing else to go by.
[/quote]
Read the bill again, and when you are done, read it again, repeat this until you can comment on it here with some shred of legitimacy.
Where in the law does it have the words, “Latino, Hispanic, Chicano, passport, unconstitutional, profiling, discriminate?” It doesn’t, you are another propagandist who drank the media Kool-Aid. You are not getting away with it, not in here.
First off, you need to have a lawful stop, arrest, or detention. So a cop has to have ALREADY pulled you over for some other reason. Then if he suspects you are illegal by probable cause, he can question your immigration status. Now you are going to say some stupid bullshit like, “Oh that could be the color of my skin, or my Hispanic accent”, or some other worthless meaningless drivel to further this pathetic attempt stopping the enforcement at our laws. But probable cause can be something along the lines of not having a drivers license, having 10 people in the backseat of a sedan, or someone who doesn’t habla. Cops have been given the right to question people about their immigration status for decades, upheld by the SCOTUS, so before you come back and try to reply to me, go read the fucking law yet again, until you puke.
We had a councilman here in Los Angeles say the same horseshit as you, “If I want to go to Arizona, I would need to bring my passport. I could be deported without even questioning me” he said. I don’t know why reporters aren’t questioning his fucking lack of intelligence, and ask if he bothered to read the law.
Your beloved AG Holder admitted he didn’t even read the law, he hasn’t even been briefed on the law, yet thinks it’s unconstitutional. I am sick of this bullshit media storm by people like you, I am no longer going to stay quiet about it.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Cops have been given the right to question people about their immigration status for decades, upheld by the SCOTUS, so before you come back and try to reply to me, go read the fucking law yet again, til you puke.
[/quote]
I was under the impression from the AZ immigration bill that state and local cops were previously prevented from assessing immigration status, and that that’s why it was spelled out specifically in the bill. Is this not true?
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Cops have been given the right to question people about their immigration status for decades, upheld by the SCOTUS, so before you come back and try to reply to me, go read the fucking law yet again, til you puke.
[/quote]
I was under the impression from the AZ immigration bill that state and local cops were previously prevented from assessing immigration status, and that that’s why it was spelled out specifically in the bill. Is this not true?[/quote]
This is not true.
The Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996, signed by Clinton, gave powers to the states to work with local law enforcement and enforce Federal Immigration Laws through a program called 287(g). This program lets cops on a city, county, and statewide level work as immigration officials, and verify the immigration status of anyone arrested. They can also deport anyone who meets the criteria for deportation, working with ICE.
This law has been around for 14 years, I have no idea why people are bitching and moaning about states enforcing Federal immigration laws. This AZ law has been crafted through Supreme Court rulings, mostly by the 9th Circuit which is the most liberal court in the land. The AZ law makes it a misdemeanor to be in the country illegally, where the Federal Law makes it a felony to be in the country illegally, yet no one is bitching about how cruel the Federal Law is.
Racial profiling goes on every day in minorities favor. College admission, HUB (historically underutilized business) and minority owned business requirements by city and state contracts, affirmitive action. THAT IS RACIAL PROFILING!!! I don’t hear them complaining when it is advantageous for them. I am sick of being politically correct. Even if this bill isn’t the answer to immigration reform, it has brought the subject to the forefront. Politicians won’t touch the subject in fear of not getting re-elected. That is the complete opposite of what it should be. They should get re-elected for discussing sensitive items and legislation, that is their job afterall.
[quote]AdamDrew wrote:
Racial profiling goes on every day in minorities favor. College admission, HUB (historically underutilized business) and minority owned business requirements by city and state contracts, affirmitive action. THAT IS RACIAL PROFILING!!! I don’t hear them complaining when it is advantageous for them. I am sick of being politically correct. Even if this bill isn’t the answer to immigration reform, it has brought the subject to the forefront. Politicians won’t touch the subject in fear of not getting re-elected. That is the complete opposite of what it should be. They should get re-elected for discussing sensitive items and legislation, that is their job afterall. [/quote]
Hey, we’re all equal! Some people just get to be more equal than others.
[quote]AdamDrew wrote:
Racial profiling goes on every day in minorities favor. College admission, HUB (historically underutilized business) and minority owned business requirements by city and state contracts, affirmitive action. THAT IS RACIAL PROFILING!!! I don’t hear them complaining when it is advantageous for them. I am sick of being politically correct. Even if this bill isn’t the answer to immigration reform, it has brought the subject to the forefront. Politicians won’t touch the subject in fear of not getting re-elected. That is the complete opposite of what it should be. They should get re-elected for discussing sensitive items and legislation, that is their job afterall. [/quote]
Hey, we’re all equal! Some people just get to be more equal than others.[/quote]
There is all the difference in the world between treating people equally and attempting to make them equal. - FA Hayek
[quote]sambaso777 wrote:
How about a law that focuses on the real problem: The fact that as long as jobs are given to illegals, they will come. They aren’t stealing jobs, it’s not stealing when they it’s given to you. Why would a business hire someone with no english comprehension when for the same wage they can hire an english speaker? The answer is, they won’t, they’ll hire them for a lower wage.
As long as mexicans are offered jobs here by American employers, they will cross the border. Until employers are targeted and a fence is built the problem will continue. As for the law, just cut out the “it’s not profiling” that is as much bullshit as Faux News and “enhanced interrogation.” [/quote]
So your an advocate for hindering one’s right to private property?
[quote]AdamDrew wrote:
Racial profiling goes on every day in minorities favor. College admission, HUB (historically underutilized business) and minority owned business requirements by city and state contracts, affirmitive action. THAT IS RACIAL PROFILING!!! I don’t hear them complaining when it is advantageous for them.
I am sick of being politically correct. Even if this bill isn’t the answer to immigration reform, it has brought the subject to the forefront. Politicians won’t touch the subject in fear of not getting re-elected.
That is the complete opposite of what it should be. They should get re-elected for discussing sensitive items and legislation, that is their job afterall. [/quote]
Hey, we’re all equal! Some people just get to be more equal than others.[/quote]
There is all the difference in the world between treating people equally and attempting to make them equal. - FA Hayek[/quote]