Kutcher Hospitalized - Fruit Diet

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[quote]Vegita wrote:

I do believe there are genetic factors at play. I truly believe some people due to their heritage (and their ancestors diets) have adapted to thrive on different levels of animal protein. Although I don’t think evolutionarily, body comp was ever a genetic limiting factor, I believe some people will feel better eating some meat. But I don’t think it is optimal for anyone to consume 300 Lbs per year, at least with respect to optimal “HEALTH”, not necessarily body composition.

Quick story, my sisters boyfriend, 35, tall, lean, nonsmoker, competes in downhill mountain biking. Anyone who looks at him would consider him healthy and fit. He is 35 and has already gone through lymphoma, a heart attack and is now dealing with a stroke which has left him unable to use his entire left side. I can give you 30 other stories of people who should not be dealing with such medical issues who have had to. There is something wrong with our diets, and I’m not above looking at all the information rationally, including if it points to my delicious NY strip as a possible detrimental food.

V[/quote]

This is where your thinking is flawed, you throw all meat into the same category. Average person’s 300lbs of meat is not New York strip, but chicken nuggets, Hardee’s Sausage buiscuits and whatever the hell it is they put in hot pockets. That’s like saying the carbs in an apple and the carbs in a pop tart are all the same.

Would you be healthier if you eliminated all the fast food and overly processed meats that make up the majority of the average american’s diet from your plate? Absolutely.

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[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:

[quote]Vegita wrote:

I do believe there are genetic factors at play. I truly believe some people due to their heritage (and their ancestors diets) have adapted to thrive on different levels of animal protein. Although I don’t think evolutionarily, body comp was ever a genetic limiting factor, I believe some people will feel better eating some meat. But I don’t think it is optimal for anyone to consume 300 Lbs per year, at least with respect to optimal “HEALTH”, not necessarily body composition.

Quick story, my sisters boyfriend, 35, tall, lean, nonsmoker, competes in downhill mountain biking. Anyone who looks at him would consider him healthy and fit. He is 35 and has already gone through lymphoma, a heart attack and is now dealing with a stroke which has left him unable to use his entire left side. I can give you 30 other stories of people who should not be dealing with such medical issues who have had to. There is something wrong with our diets, and I’m not above looking at all the information rationally, including if it points to my delicious NY strip as a possible detrimental food.

V[/quote]

This is where your thinking is flawed, you throw all meat into the same category. Average person’s 300lbs of meat is not New York strip, but chicken nuggets, Hardee’s Sausage buiscuits and whatever the hell it is they put in hot pockets. That’s like saying the carbs in an apple and the carbs in a pop tart are all the same.

Would you be healthier if you eliminated all the fast food and overly processed meats that make up the majority of the average american’s diet from your plate? Absolutely.
[/quote]

As I said, i haven’t made any conclusions, it’s possible that the modern processing is 100% to blame and meat is an innocent by-standard in the data. This is why I think we need more studies. In the meantime, I have cut way back on my meat consumption, to just a few servings per week, and feel like I have made an overall improvement in my health. Not to mention the rest of the changes I talked about, such as eating real whole foods, that I either grew myself, or got from a local vendor.

V

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[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]Vegita wrote:

[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:
I was a vegetarian for four years. Even when consuming eggs and dairy I couldn’t maintain weight and my body comp sucked. And all the vegetarians say “well, you just weren’t eating right.” Which is bullshit. I was obsessed with diet, read dozens of books. That’s probably why I stuck with it for four years, because of a stubborn refusal to admit that I “failed” at being a healthy vegetarian. I stuck with it long after stopped buying into the bullshit political/eviromental/ethical reasons why I became a vegetarian in the first place. Then I had the revelation that it was me who failed but the diet.

This “vegan” MMA fighter you mentioned. How long has he been vegan? Do you have any pics of him from before he became vegan? The vast majority of the muscular vegan/vegitarian poster boys built their mass while eating meat. I’ve known a few descent sized guys who managed to hang onto most of their strength and mass when they went vegitarian. They probably had better genetics than me, who knows?
[/quote]

I do believe there are genetic factors at play. I truly believe some people due to their heritage (and their ancestors diets) have adapted to thrive on different levels of animal protein. Although I don’t think evolutionarily, body comp was ever a genetic limiting factor, I believe some people will feel better eating some meat. But I don’t think it is optimal for anyone to consume 300 Lbs per year, at least with respect to optimal “HEALTH”, not necessarily body composition.

Quick story, my sisters boyfriend, 35, tall, lean, nonsmoker, competes in downhill mountain biking. Anyone who looks at him would consider him healthy and fit. He is 35 and has already gone through lymphoma, a heart attack and is now dealing with a stroke which has left him unable to use his entire left side. I can give you 30 other stories of people who should not be dealing with such medical issues who have had to. There is something wrong with our diets, and I’m not above looking at all the information rationally, including if it points to my delicious NY strip as a possible detrimental food.

V[/quote]

So I guess you’re just going to ignore the populations, in entirely different areas of the world mind you, that have subsisted on nothing but meat and fat? And in doing so have managed to avoid the chronic disease you mentioned? Only a fool would look at the pool of data across the world and reach the conclusion that any one population is eating the optimal diet. It’s pretty obvious that diets on completely different ends of the spectrum don’t have to be mutually exclusive, actually. [/quote]

I’m not ignoring them at all, nor am I pronouncing we abandon any data, or even cease all meat consumption. If someone has Inuit heritage, then they have been through many generations of existing on very high animal consumption, and I think they have genetically adapted to do so. So someone with that heritage, again only in my opinion, will probably be better off with higher than normal meat consumption, though I would still caution against highly processed, GMO, antibiotic laden stuff that the factory farms are pumping out.

V

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Because the average American eats 300lb of low quality meat…

You said you get all your meat from a mate on a genuine farm.

Do you not possess any self control? Don’t eat 300lb of the stuff then. Eat 100lb like you made mention. Don’t be a statistic.

Shit, you’re willing to look at research and debate it, but not take a step back and look at a much simpler, smaller, personal picture, dude!

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[quote]sexyxe wrote:
Because the average American eats 300lb of low quality meat…

You said you get all your meat from a mate on a genuine farm.

Do you not possess any self control? Don’t eat 300lb of the stuff then. Eat 100lb like you made mention. Don’t be a statistic.

Shit, you’re willing to look at research and debate it, but not take a step back and look at a much simpler, smaller, personal picture, dude!
[/quote]

I’m assuming your addressing me?

I’m not sure what you are going on about, I already said I have made the changes in my own personal life to eat more locally, and less processed foods. Your post doesn’t seem to make sense, I do exactly what you are saying I should do. So yes, I’m just posting here to get some debate about this. I know that meat has a pretty high standing amongst T-Nationers so the responses are pretty much what I thought they would be.

V

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[quote]Vegita wrote:
If you look at the increase in the major diseases, Heart disease, cancer, stroke, diabetes, etc… you will also find there is about a three fold incidence of those diseases over the same period.
[/quote]

So you’re linking this DIRECTLY to meat consumption? Man that is a LONG shot. Shouldn’t you consider the increase unadverted consupmtion of all kinds of medicine, work related stress, popularization of highly processed food? I could go on all day listing possible factors that have a higher chance of being the direct cause of those diseases than just meat.

You have made some good points but this is way off.

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Poor Vegita. His triumphant return ain’t so triumphant.

:frowning:

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[quote]Brant2 wrote:

[quote]Vegita wrote:
If you look at the increase in the major diseases, Heart disease, cancer, stroke, diabetes, etc… you will also find there is about a three fold incidence of those diseases over the same period.
[/quote]

So you’re linking this DIRECTLY to meat consumption? Man that is a LONG shot. Shouldn’t you consider the increase unadverted consupmtion of all kinds of medicine, work related stress, popularization of highly processed food? I could go on all day listing possible factors that have a higher chance of being the direct cause of those diseases than just meat.

You have made some good points but this is way off.[/quote]

Pretty much this, to attribute it to one specific variable is pretty brave. The same thing holds true for vegetable oils and whole grains (which by the way have an actual link to obesity and diabetes). You have to look at the mechanism of disease to understand whether it’s plausible or not.

Also keep in mind what the quality of the meat is like. If you eat pizza pockets for2 years straight you’d be pretty sick and inflamed. So if we feed say a cow corn (unnatural diet) how do you think that would effect the quality of the meat? There has been a well documented effect on the omega ratio between corn fed and grass fed as well as the overall fat content (and CLA content)

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[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]Brant2 wrote:

[quote]Vegita wrote:
If you look at the increase in the major diseases, Heart disease, cancer, stroke, diabetes, etc… you will also find there is about a three fold incidence of those diseases over the same period.
[/quote]

So you’re linking this DIRECTLY to meat consumption? Man that is a LONG shot. Shouldn’t you consider the increase unadverted consupmtion of all kinds of medicine, work related stress, popularization of highly processed food? I could go on all day listing possible factors that have a higher chance of being the direct cause of those diseases than just meat.

You have made some good points but this is way off.[/quote]

Pretty much this, to attribute it to one specific variable is pretty brave. The same thing holds true for vegetable oils and whole grains (which by the way have an actual link to obesity and diabetes). You have to look at the mechanism of disease to understand whether it’s plausible or not.

Also keep in mind what the quality of the meat is like. If you eat pizza pockets for2 years straight you’d be pretty sick and inflamed. So if we feed say a cow corn (unnatural diet) how do you think that would effect the quality of the meat? There has been a well documented effect on the omega ratio between corn fed and grass fed as well as the overall fat content (and CLA content)
[/quote]

To kill two reading comprehension birds with one digital stone please allow me to address this to both rhiana bubble and Brant, I never said or suggested that meat was the only problem. In fact I clearly stated several times now that I have yet to make any conclusions, but that I do find the data convincing. Convincing enough for me to cut back on my meat consumtion and see what happens. Lo and behold I am still coming in at around the same weight, yet with a stronger focus on fresh frutis and veggies (an heirloom tomato out of my garden is just absolutely amazing) I feel less bloated and have better energy levels, and this is even when I factor in the past 6 months being spent handling a newborn.

Here is a garden pic for you to realize I am surely not just some keyboard warrior who does nothing all day but get into intellectual diet arguments while eating cheetos and drinking Mt dew in my moms basement. Let me know if anyone is interested in more garden pics. I have some good garden porn from this past summer.

V

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[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
Poor Vegita. His triumphant return ain’t so triumphant.

:([/quote]

You should know better dwarf! My power level only grows with each battle. I’m just getting warmed up.

V

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I don’t care if you win or lose.
I’m just glad you’re back!

:slight_smile:

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Vegita is getting pretty much 100 % of his information from the documentary “Forks Over Knives.” He must have watched it recently. The documentary relies very heavily on the China Study. The China Study | Denise Minger provides quality arguments/links to arguments against Dr. Campbell and his agenda-driven ‘study’.

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[quote]Vegita wrote:

Here is a garden pic for you to realize I am surely not just some keyboard warrior who does nothing all day but get into intellectual diet arguments while eating cheetos and drinking Mt dew in my moms basement. Let me know if anyone is interested in more garden pics. I have some good garden porn from this past summer.

V[/quote]

There is certainly nothing wrong with that. Growing your own vegetables: great. Eating more fresh fruit and veg: great

assuming meat is by default bad for you is the only problem i see, eating less might even be a better thing but I’m willing to bet you will be much healthier eating meat once or twice a weak rather than none.

here is what i think is the ideal

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Okay given the direction this thread has taken I want to ask a serious question.

What is the point of vegetables?

I’m not trying to troll or some shit; I seriously just don’t get vegetables. I recently got on a kick to improve my diet from being pretty much sugar and milk to quality meat and veggies. So I’m eatin good stuff and I figure I’ll get some broccoli and carrots and spinach, etc. Nice! So one day I eat an entire bag of broccoli. It was pretty filling stuff. So I’m like “Alright let’s check out all the good shit I just got from this!”. Well… to my horror that entire fucking bag of broccoli only gave me about 100 calories. Okay, don’t panic. Low in calories, but I’m sure it’s extra nutrient dense right? No fat, well that’s to be expected. Pretty much no protein either. Okay… And not even very many carbs. So wtf did I just eat? A really filling vitamin? I already take a multivitamin.

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[quote]csulli wrote:
Okay given the direction this thread has taken I want to ask a serious question.

What is the point of vegetables?

I’m not trying to troll or some shit; I seriously just don’t get vegetables. I recently got on a kick to improve my diet from being pretty much sugar and milk to quality meat and veggies. So I’m eatin good stuff and I figure I’ll get some broccoli and carrots and spinach, etc. Nice! So one day I eat an entire bag of broccoli. It was pretty filling stuff. So I’m like “Alright let’s check out all the good shit I just got from this!”. Well… to my horror that entire fucking bag of broccoli only gave me about 100 calories. Okay, don’t panic. Low in calories, but I’m sure it’s extra nutrient dense right? No fat, well that’s to be expected. Pretty much no protein either. Okay… And not even very many carbs. So wtf did I just eat? A really filling vitamin? I already take a multivitamin.[/quote]

Ya, thats not how it works though.

Vitamins in their natural form have an extra kick as far as I remember.

Plus, phytochemicals.

Pro tip: with enough fat and salt you can down any vegetable.

Except brussel sprouts.

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Barbecue sauce makes roast Brussels sprouts almost delicious

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[quote]csulli wrote:
Okay given the direction this thread has taken I want to ask a serious question.

What is the point of vegetables?

I’m not trying to troll or some shit; I seriously just don’t get vegetables. I recently got on a kick to improve my diet from being pretty much sugar and milk to quality meat and veggies. So I’m eatin good stuff and I figure I’ll get some broccoli and carrots and spinach, etc. Nice! So one day I eat an entire bag of broccoli. It was pretty filling stuff. So I’m like “Alright let’s check out all the good shit I just got from this!”. Well… to my horror that entire fucking bag of broccoli only gave me about 100 calories. Okay, don’t panic. Low in calories, but I’m sure it’s extra nutrient dense right? No fat, well that’s to be expected. Pretty much no protein either. Okay… And not even very many carbs. So wtf did I just eat? A really filling vitamin? I already take a multivitamin.[/quote]

Fiber, more bioavailable vitamins and minerals, improved insulin sensitivity, and feeling “full” with fewer calories(when cutting of course).

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I mean I have no problem with the way they taste. I just don’t know wtf they got goin for them when I can get 10x as many calories, protein, and fat from a plate of pork chops and eggs.

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[quote]csulli wrote:
I mean I have no problem with the way they taste. I just don’t know wtf they got goin for them when I can get 10x as many calories, protein, and fat from a plate of pork chops and eggs.[/quote]

Also, helping to combat oxidation in the body. Meats, eggs, nuts and lifting increase the acidity of your body. Veggies help shift it more towards neutral.

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[quote]flipcollar wrote:
Vegita is getting pretty much 100 % of his information from the documentary “Forks Over Knives.” He must have watched it recently. The documentary relies very heavily on the China Study. The China Study | Denise Minger provides quality arguments/links to arguments against Dr. Campbell and his agenda-driven ‘study’.[/quote]

Not 100% but yes this is the video documentary I watched which had me questioning the amount of meat I myself and my family was consuming. I also watched documentaries on the Gerson method, which is also a vegan based approach to fighting cancer. My mother was battling leukemia at the time, so I was doing as much reading and watching as I could. Like I have said for maybe the fourth or fifth time, I am not vegan, nor have I decided that Vegan is better than eating meat. I can say almost certainly that Vegan is better than a typical american diet, if only because by default it will be eliminating a ton of processed garbage. Even though I see plenty of processed shit on the shelves labeled vegan.

I like the way I eat right now, which is one small meat portion on most dinner plates, probably 5 times per week or so. The rest is fruits vegs, and complex carbs, rice/pasta/sweet® potatoes. And again, I grow as much as possible, buy from local farmers and farmers markets. When I do run to the grocery store (like now it’s winter and I have to buy most of my produce in the store) I try to do the best I can, I buy the dirty dozen organic, and try to limit the snack type foods to one or two item for both me and the wife per week. This week it’s a bag of pretzels to dip in peanut butter or mustard.

At no point anywhere in this thread have I said People should 100% stop eating meat. Can we all agree on that so we can get back to the topic at hand? Is there a point at which meat consumption can have a detrimental effect on health and at what point does one think that is?

V