[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Most people that were born into Islam do not really practice the whole thing, just what is convenient.
Is your Muslim leader a “true believer”? If so, we are going to have problems with him.
Ah, the whole “true believer” bit. What if he declares himself a “true believer” than. He believes he must spread Islam across the globe. And he says he shall do it through trade and scholarship. What then? Or is he not a “true believer”? If he’s not, who the fuck decides what is “true” to a religion?[/quote]
If he says he will spread it across the globe we will have a HUGE problem. Spreading it by trade and scholarship is a joke.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
So you’re a fatalist then? That is, you believe in predetermination?
No, I’m not a fatalist. [/quote]
So if we are all guilty… how the hell do we get into heaven?
Also, you believe God is not all knowledgeable then? The Christian God seems to switch (for lack of a better word) from all-powerful to limited, which is it, for you at least? Is there a Christian consensus? I assume you’re protestant, may I ask which branch?
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Most people that were born into Islam do not really practice the whole thing, just what is convenient.
Is your Muslim leader a “true believer”? If so, we are going to have problems with him.
Ah, the whole “true believer” bit. What if he declares himself a “true believer” than. He believes he must spread Islam across the globe. And he says he shall do it through trade and scholarship. What then? Or is he not a “true believer”? If he’s not, who the fuck decides what is “true” to a religion?
If he says he will spread it across the globe we will have a HUGE problem. Spreading it by trade and scholarship is a joke. [/quote]
New question: same exact leader, same exact words, replace Muslim and Islam with Christian and Christianity. Same answer?
[quote]Beowolf wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
So you’re a fatalist then? That is, you believe in predetermination?
No, I’m not a fatalist.
So if we are all guilty… how the hell do we get into heaven?
[/quote]
We repent and believe in Jesus.
I’m a Presbyterian, but not mainline. Every church that holds to one of the Reformed confessions pretty much believes the same thing.
Roman Catholics believe we are saved by faith and works. Protestants believe in sola fide - justification by faith alone.
The concept of the Christian God’s justice is pretty offensive to non-Christians. God is all-powerful, but he ordains only those he has predestined to faith in Jesus for salvation. From man’s perspective, we have no way of knowing beforehand who will believe and who won’t, so per the Great Commission, we’re supposed to proclaim the gospel to everyone. That takes the fatalism out of the equation.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Pre-ordained entry into heaven? That’s not much incentive to act right. I could do whatever I want then, and still get rewarded for it.[/quote]
That’s not the Bible’s position.
I could sit here and explain every nuance of Christian theology to you all day, but when push comes to shove, you’ll still have to read the Bible yourself to understand it. It’s just like anything else. At a very basic level, you should probably read the gospel of Mark and the epistle to the Romans. Most of the questions posed here could have been answered by those two books alone.
No, virtue doesn’t (and can’t) get one into heaven because God is just and therefore must punish evil. The Bible’s position is that Jesus kept the Law perfectly and was therefore the only fitting sacrifice for the sins of those who believe in him, but that faith itself is a gift of the Holy Spirit.
[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Most people that were born into Islam do not really practice the whole thing, just what is convenient.
Is your Muslim leader a “true believer”? If so, we are going to have problems with him.
Ah, the whole “true believer” bit. What if he declares himself a “true believer” than. He believes he must spread Islam across the globe. And he says he shall do it through trade and scholarship. What then? Or is he not a “true believer”? If he’s not, who the fuck decides what is “true” to a religion?
If he says he will spread it across the globe we will have a HUGE problem. Spreading it by trade and scholarship is a joke.
New question: same exact leader, same exact words, replace Muslim and Islam with Christian and Christianity. Same answer?[/quote]
Of course, but I do not see that happening anywhere in the world.
Well, Christians have a mandate to “make disciples of all nations.” I still haven’t found where Jesus said to do it at the point of the sword as Mohammed did in Surah 9:5. That’s the difference.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
New question: same exact leader, same exact words, replace Muslim and Islam with Christian and Christianity. Same answer?
Well, Christians have a mandate to “make disciples of all nations.” I still haven’t found where Jesus said to do it at the point of the sword as Mohammed did in Surah 9:5. That’s the difference. [/quote]
Considering that difference didn’t stop them much, it isn’t very significant now is it?
[quote]Beowolf wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
New question: same exact leader, same exact words, replace Muslim and Islam with Christian and Christianity. Same answer?
Well, Christians have a mandate to “make disciples of all nations.” I still haven’t found where Jesus said to do it at the point of the sword as Mohammed did in Surah 9:5. That’s the difference.
Considering that difference didn’t stop them much, it isn’t very significant now is it?[/quote]
You’re argument is essentially that “the Word of God” of the respective faiths has no influence, good or bad, on the behavior of the adherents of that faith. But if I were to point out that atheists (such as Mao, Stalin) do thus and such, therefore atheism is bad, you’d quickly remind me that atheism doesn’t advocate thus and such bad behavior.
You’re using logical fallacy to attempt to show this moral equivalence. If I were to say, “Killing is bad,” but then went out and killed someone, would that mean that my original statement was false?
[Edit: I’ll add, by the way of further discussion, that if you are arguing that despite the claims of the respective religions, both are equally bloody, I’d like some historical evidence of that fact. Christianity, to you, seems to begin somewhere around 1492 when Spain and Portugal began to colonize the New World. Or does your survey of the history of Christianity go back further? Did the apostles, upon Jesus ascension into heaven, immediately pick up their swords and begin telling unbelievers, “Believe or die?” How about Irenaus, Augustine, and church fathers later than Peter and Paul? Were they brutal colonizers? ]