Knife Control

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]smh23 wrote:
Just like with dorms where warrantless searches take place. Just like with dry dorms where people who are legally allowed to drink are not allowed to store or consume alcohol. Just like with professors who are legally allowed to bar students from entering classrooms and taking tests if they have notes written on their hands. Just like how professors can remove students from their classrooms for exercising their right to free speech, even at a whisper.

College is not, and should not be, regular life. Anybody who argues differently has not spent a lot of time observing a campus.[/quote]

So, they should be able to bar gays too?

42

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
Just like with dorms where warrantless searches take place. Just like with dry dorms where people who are legally allowed to drink are not allowed to store or consume alcohol. Just like with professors who are legally allowed to bar students from entering classrooms and taking tests if they have notes written on their hands. Just like how professors can remove students from their classrooms for exercising their right to free speech, even at a whisper.

College is not, and should not be, regular life. Anybody who argues differently has not spent a lot of time observing a campus.[/quote]

So, they should be able to bar gays too?[/quote]

No, that is prohibited explicitly by statute.

Edit: except where it isn’t, in which case, go for it.

43

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
Just like with dorms where warrantless searches take place. Just like with dry dorms where people who are legally allowed to drink are not allowed to store or consume alcohol. Just like with professors who are legally allowed to bar students from entering classrooms and taking tests if they have notes written on their hands. Just like how professors can remove students from their classrooms for exercising their right to free speech, even at a whisper.

College is not, and should not be, regular life. Anybody who argues differently has not spent a lot of time observing a campus.[/quote]

So, they should be able to bar gays too?[/quote]

No, that is prohibited explicitly by statute.[/quote]

So your moral compass is dictated by law?

44

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
Just like with dorms where warrantless searches take place. Just like with dry dorms where people who are legally allowed to drink are not allowed to store or consume alcohol. Just like with professors who are legally allowed to bar students from entering classrooms and taking tests if they have notes written on their hands. Just like how professors can remove students from their classrooms for exercising their right to free speech, even at a whisper.

College is not, and should not be, regular life. Anybody who argues differently has not spent a lot of time observing a campus.[/quote]

So, they should be able to bar gays too?[/quote]

No, that is prohibited explicitly by statute.[/quote]

So your moral compass is dictated by law?[/quote]

This isn’t a question of “moral compasses.” I’m talking about what the law allows and disallows. It allows universities to restrict certain Constitutional rights. It disallows them from considering sexual orientation in the admissions process. That’s it.

45

I went to college in a shitty city.

The university itself was great for academics, as well as athletics, but the city it was located in was a shithole.

It was not uncommon to see gang bangers walking the campus, for no good reason other than looking to fuck with rich kids and rich daddy’s little girls. Because of this, there was an unspoken policy of avoidance, meaning you did not walk alone at night (even as a guy), and you made sure where you were at all times. I had my car broken into a few times, my radio stolen, but nothing really major. There were some rapes, some assaults, thefts, you get the idea. It was not until the school hired armed security to walk the grounds that caused things to get better.

Criminals (irrelevant of mental stability) are willing to go to an unscrupulous level, which they know the average person is not willing to go to. This is an advantage they prey on. It is only until they feel that their advantage is removed, thus leveling the playing field, showing them they too are at risk of losing their life that they rethink committing the crime.

46

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
I went to college in a shitty city.

The university itself was great for academics, as well as athletics, but the city it was located in was a shithole.

It was not uncommon to see gang bangers walking the campus, for no good reason other than looking to fuck with rich kids and rich daddy’s little girls. Because of this, there was an unspoken policy of avoidance, meaning you did not walk alone at night (even as a guy), and you made sure where you were at all times. I had my car broken into a few times, my radio stolen, but nothing really major. There were some rapes, some assaults, thefts, you get the idea. It was not until the school hired armed security to walk the grounds that caused things to get better.

Criminals (irrelevant of mental stability) are willing to go to an unscrupulous level, which they know the average person is not willing to go to. This is an advantage they prey on. It is only until they feel that their advantage is removed, thus leveling the playing field, showing them they too are at risk of losing their life that they rethink committing the crime.

[/quote]

Urban campuses should have lots of security. Grad school in Harlem was safer than undergrad in a bucolic college-village, because the former was guarded well and the latter wasn’t.

Anyway, crime on college campuses is not a pressing general problem. In fact, campuses–the overwhelming majority of which prohibit student gun ownership–are among the safest places in this country. If I recall correctly, the homicide rate on college campuses is more than 80 times lower than the national average.

I believe, after having spent a ton of time around college-aged people, that far more harm than good would come from allowing kids to keep and carry guns around campuses. They are stupid and irresponsible, and if I were running an institution to which they voluntarily applied and matriculated, I would have absolutely no problem telling them that they weren’t carrying or storing firearms at my institution.

My parents have a place in Mexico; we keep guns there. It’s a dangerous country, and people have tried to break into the house on at least two occasions.

Most people, however, are not so fearful that they feel it necessary to carry a gun around in the event of something that is extremely unlikely, like having to use it on a college campus. Anyone who is, is free to go to a school at which guns are permitted.

48

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

Funny, it’s the low-lifes on campus that give me the notion I should be allowed to carry to defend myself…

[/quote]

My point as well. If there’s ANY place on earth I need to exercise my right to carry it’s in the Land of Low-lifes.[/quote]

Low-Lifes understand self preservation.

49

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

Funny, it’s the low-lifes on campus that give me the notion I should be allowed to carry to defend myself…

[/quote]

My point as well. If there’s ANY place on earth I need to exercise my right to carry it’s in the Land of Low-lifes.[/quote]

The difference between a low-life idiot and someone who poses you danger is significant.

See my above post re: violent crime on college campuses. It is impressively low.

You know what will raise it? More guns among the immature and incompetent student body.

50

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
I went to college in a shitty city.

The university itself was great for academics, as well as athletics, but the city it was located in was a shithole.

It was not uncommon to see gang bangers walking the campus, for no good reason other than looking to fuck with rich kids and rich daddy’s little girls. Because of this, there was an unspoken policy of avoidance, meaning you did not walk alone at night (even as a guy), and you made sure where you were at all times. I had my car broken into a few times, my radio stolen, but nothing really major. There were some rapes, some assaults, thefts, you get the idea. It was not until the school hired armed security to walk the grounds that caused things to get better.

Criminals (irrelevant of mental stability) are willing to go to an unscrupulous level, which they know the average person is not willing to go to. This is an advantage they prey on. It is only until they feel that their advantage is removed, thus leveling the playing field, showing them they too are at risk of losing their life that they rethink committing the crime.

[/quote]

Urban campuses should have lots of security. Grad school in Harlem was safer than undergrad in a bucolic college-village, because the former was guarded well and the latter wasn’t.

Anyway, crime on college campuses is not a pressing general problem. In fact, campuses–the overwhelming majority of which prohibit student gun ownership–are among the safest places in this country. If I recall correctly, the homicide rate on college campuses is more than 80 times lower than the national average.

I believe, after having spent a ton of time around college-aged people, that far more harm than good would come from allowing kids to keep and carry guns around campuses. They are stupid and irresponsible, and if I were running an institution to which they voluntarily applied and matriculated, I would have absolutely no problem telling them that they weren’t carrying or storing firearms at my institution.

My parents have a place in Mexico; we keep guns there. It’s a dangerous country, and people have tried to break into the house on at least two occasions.

Most people, however, are not so fearful that they feel it necessary to carry a gun around in the event of something that is extremely unlikely, like having to use it on a college campus. Anyone who is, is free to go to a school at which guns are permitted.[/quote]

Based on personal experience I find it would be many times more likely to have your gun stolen in a college environment than to actually use it for self defense.

51

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
“Illegal” and “there is a right” are two very different things.

It is illegal to deny a homosexual admission to university recipient of public funds on the grounds of his sexual orientation. Can’t do it.

–There is a right against unreasonable search and seizure–and yet my dorm room was routinely searched in college, despite the fact that I’ve never attended a a university that operated entirely without federal assistance.

–There is a right to free speech and press, and yet I could have been expelled from Columbia had I written about the institution itself in a non-affiliated publication while actively in attendance at the school.

[/quote]

So why do you think gay rights are different and apparently more fundamental that speech or probably cause?[/quote]

I didn’t write any of these statutes, and I certainly didn’t write the BOR. I’m describing reality.[/quote]

Put that moron on ignore…your life will be much happier without his idiotic ramblings in it…I just wish people would stop quoting him so I could stop banging my head on the desk lol

54

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
Just like with dorms where warrantless searches take place. Just like with dry dorms where people who are legally allowed to drink are not allowed to store or consume alcohol. Just like with professors who are legally allowed to bar students from entering classrooms and taking tests if they have notes written on their hands. Just like how professors can remove students from their classrooms for exercising their right to free speech, even at a whisper.

College is not, and should not be, regular life. Anybody who argues differently has not spent a lot of time observing a campus.[/quote]

So, they should be able to bar gays too?[/quote]

No, that is prohibited explicitly by statute.[/quote]

So your moral compass is dictated by law?[/quote]

This isn’t a question of “moral compasses.” I’m talking about what the law allows and disallows. It allows universities to restrict certain Constitutional rights. It disallows them from considering sexual orientation in the admissions process. That’s it.[/quote]

I have been continually asking your opinion and you have continued to quote statutes.

55

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
“Illegal” and “there is a right” are two very different things.

It is illegal to deny a homosexual admission to university recipient of public funds on the grounds of his sexual orientation. Can’t do it.

–There is a right against unreasonable search and seizure–and yet my dorm room was routinely searched in college, despite the fact that I’ve never attended a a university that operated entirely without federal assistance.

–There is a right to free speech and press, and yet I could have been expelled from Columbia had I written about the institution itself in a non-affiliated publication while actively in attendance at the school.

[/quote]

So why do you think gay rights are different and apparently more fundamental that speech or probably cause?[/quote]

I didn’t write any of these statutes, and I certainly didn’t write the BOR. I’m describing reality.[/quote]

Put that moron on ignore…your life will be much happier without his idiotic ramblings in it…I just wish people would stop quoting him so I could stop banging my head on the desk lol
[/quote]

Says the guy who is proud of using coercion and threats of violence to pad his pockets.

56

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Now lets’ try this one more time, smh…explain to Amanda Collins how she needs to see it your way. Tell her how your experience on college campuses trumps hers in terms of perspective on this issue.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/03/05/colorado-dem-to-rape-survivor-a-gun-wouldnt-have-helped-you-against-rapist-because-statistics-are-not-on-your-side/

[/quote]

Oh stop it, this is exactly what the anti-gun crowd does with tragedies. “Tell those kids at Newtown that you think high-capacity magazines should be legal.” Exactly the same thing.

Here is the bottom line: it’s entirely up to the people who run the university.

Me, personally, I think the ones who ban guns are in the right. And I have far more knowledge of university life in the 21st century than most people.

And again, if somebody is so fearful that they think it’s necessary to carry a firearm around an institution whose homicide rate is more than 80 times lower than the national average, they are perfectly free to avoid institutions that prohibit firearms.

57

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

I have been continually asking your opinion and you have continued to quote statutes.[/quote]

My opinion has been made very clear.

If you’re asking about nondiscrimination laws: first of all, it has literally nothing to do with this. It’s a false analogy on about a hundred different counts.

And secondly, I don’t really care. I would be just fine with discrimination against gays at universities, if only to watch with satisfaction as institutions with discriminatory admissions processes died slow deaths.

58

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

I have been continually asking your opinion and you have continued to quote statutes.[/quote]

My opinion has been made very clear.

If you’re asking about nondiscrimination laws: first of all, it has literally nothing to do with this. It’s a false analogy on about a hundred different counts.

And secondly, I don’t really care. I would be just fine with discrimination against gays at universities, if only to watch with satisfaction as institutions with discriminatory admissions processes died slow deaths.[/quote]

It isn’t false in the areas I’m discussing. The question posed is “does a voluntary institution have the right to do what the hell it wants or not?”

You seeming to make the argument that the free market is thorough protection for a right in a voluntary setting. That caught me by surprise. I have only been attempting to get you to flesh out your overall stance on the subject. And I still don’t understand why you repeatedly responded by quoting statutes when asked what you thought. I’ll remember this the next time you take a stance for intervention in the private market though.

59

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

I have been continually asking your opinion and you have continued to quote statutes.[/quote]

My opinion has been made very clear.

If you’re asking about nondiscrimination laws: first of all, it has literally nothing to do with this. It’s a false analogy on about a hundred different counts.

And secondly, I don’t really care. I would be just fine with discrimination against gays at universities, if only to watch with satisfaction as institutions with discriminatory admissions processes died slow deaths.[/quote]

It isn’t false in the areas I’m discussing.
[/quote]

Yes, it is. As was on display the other day, when you pounced on a simple and manifestly valid argument of mine despite the fact that you clearly do not grasp even the most basic principles of Aristotelian logic (the causal conditional, in that case), you speak with certainty before you have attained anything close to certainty.

I’m going to help us both out here and avoid a long, drawn-out discussion: logicians have a saying–all analogies limp. Figure out why on your own, because I’ve explained it more than once around here.

And as far as “remembering for next time” or whatever it was…I’m flattered that you’d see fit to commit my political beliefs to memory.

60

FTR I actually agree with SMH for the most part. Private universities have the right to ban guns, especially in things like dorm rooms. Hell, my university forced freshmen to buy a meal plan even. I’m also not certain allowing college students the right to carry around campus is the best idea. There is a ton of pranks and such that could have disastrous outcomes (this point isn’t arguing should or not, just noting it could be a net negative). Being a student is ultimately a voluntary position and the rules are there before you signed up, including your rape victim push.

I’m even in favor of allowing all private business to ban guns. If you own a place, you have the right to not have people carry guns in it. Regardless of questions of alcohol or self defense.