How does the pain feel (dull, sharp?), is it localized or not? Where exactly do you feel it? When exactly does it start, when does it end?
Without knowing what the problem is, suggesting solutions is fairly pointless…
In fact, OP may be better off posting this in the injury forum and getting input from guys like Bushidobadboy…
Generally fairly dull, unless I do a particularly heavy set of squats thatr week (For example one week I was almost at 235- thats when my knee pain started)
Seems to be most acute on knee extension and resolved by knee flexion (like a quad stretch)
What happens if you go particularly heavy? Does it change from dull to sharp and localized?
Where do you feel it?
Squatting 3 times a week when you have problems is not a good idea, even with lighter weights…
I notice the same pain in my knees with weight over 225. Maybe wrapping my knees would help, I’ve never tried it. I think it’s just a sign of the lovely aging process.
I’m also interested having been plagued by the same symptoms for a few years now. I used to have good leg strength in school and was a pretty good sprinter. When I was 17 I could do 245 for 6-10 reps and easily max out the leg extension and curl machines. I’m nearly 22 now and if I go near 225 my knees just get the same dull pain and feel weak.
I know I don’t have bad genetics and I’m pretty sure the problem is improper form due to muscle imbalances and a lack of flexibility in the right areas. Sometimes on a bad day my lower back aches too. Also, if I go running, a lot of the impact seems to transfer to the outside of my feet (same happens when walking, it’s just less obvious), so I think there could be a calf issue as well.
Another area for me which could be contributing to the problem is my hips. If I sit on the edge of a table with my legs hanging off, my hip muscles seem to externally rotate my femur, therefore pointing my feet slightly inwards (I think I got the “externally” bit right). Not trying to hijack the thread, just adding my experience with the same problem.
I really like the way the Chinese practice medicine - looking at the body as a whole and not just independent parts is the best way in my opinion. Upload a video so the more experienced on the forums can see how the rest of your body functions when squatting.
[quote]I. Ron Stomach wrote:
I’m also interested having been plagued by the same symptoms for a few years now. I used to have good leg strength in school and was a pretty good sprinter. When I was 17 I could do 245 for 6-10 reps and easily max out the leg extension and curl machines. I’m nearly 22 now and if I go near 225 my knees just get the same dull pain and feel weak.
I know I don’t have bad genetics and I’m pretty sure the problem is improper form due to muscle imbalances and a lack of flexibility in the right areas. Sometimes on a bad day my lower back aches too. Also, if I go running, a lot of the impact seems to transfer to the outside of my feet (same happens when walking, it’s just less obvious), so I think there could be a calf issue as well.
Another area for me which could be contributing to the problem is my hips. If I sit on the edge of a table with my legs hanging off, my hip muscles seem to externally rotate my femur, therefore pointing my feet slightly inwards (I think I got the “externally” bit right). Not trying to hijack the thread, just adding my experience with the same problem.
I really like the way the Chinese practice medicine - looking at the body as a whole and not just independent parts is the best way in my opinion. Upload a video so the more experienced on the forums can see how the rest of your body functions when squatting.[/quote]
How often do you squat per week (or better, how often did you squat, and how heavy, back when the issue started appearing?).
Also: Thanks mods for moving the thread to the appropriate forum.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]I. Ron Stomach wrote:
I’m also interested having been plagued by the same symptoms for a few years now. I used to have good leg strength in school and was a pretty good sprinter. When I was 17 I could do 245 for 6-10 reps and easily max out the leg extension and curl machines. I’m nearly 22 now and if I go near 225 my knees just get the same dull pain and feel weak.
I know I don’t have bad genetics and I’m pretty sure the problem is improper form due to muscle imbalances and a lack of flexibility in the right areas. Sometimes on a bad day my lower back aches too. Also, if I go running, a lot of the impact seems to transfer to the outside of my feet (same happens when walking, it’s just less obvious), so I think there could be a calf issue as well.
Another area for me which could be contributing to the problem is my hips. If I sit on the edge of a table with my legs hanging off, my hip muscles seem to externally rotate my femur, therefore pointing my feet slightly inwards (I think I got the “externally” bit right). Not trying to hijack the thread, just adding my experience with the same problem.
I really like the way the Chinese practice medicine - looking at the body as a whole and not just independent parts is the best way in my opinion. Upload a video so the more experienced on the forums can see how the rest of your body functions when squatting.[/quote]
How often do you squat per week (or better, how often did you squat, and how heavy, back when the issue started appearing?).
Also: Thanks mods for moving the thread to the appropriate forum. [/quote]
At the moment I squat up to twice a week depending on the workout rotation. I currently do three weights sessions a week, usually on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. They are all pretty much total body workouts based around deadlifts, squats, pull-ups and rows. I sometimes throw in some assistance work for arms and shoulders (which are both impinged so I have to be careful, but that’s another story). From what I can remember, things started to go downhill when I was 17-18 (I’d probably been using the gym about 6 months to a year on and off), to the point where I’ve been going in circles for the past 2-3 years. So I was probably squatting up to 245 at the time, about once per week in the latter months before the problems began. My training probably wasn’t that balanced for the first year or so and although I always excelled in sport and have good genetics, my lack of knowledge caught up with me and I paid the price. The annoying thing is, I believe I now know how to train with decent form and design a balanced routine, I just can’t implement my knowledge due to my knees and shoulders holding me back. Anyway, off to the gym now to do more damage (I just can’t stay away - that’s probably another part of the problem!).
Wow, there is TONS of mis-information on this thread. Where to begin…
To the OP (Vali I believe) - You state you have a forward lean during your powerlifting style squats. My question to you is where are your shins positioned? Are they perpendicular to the floor or are you getting an anterior translation? Also, as already asked, when you squat, are your hips breaking first or your knees (meaning do you push your hips back first or are you bending your knees first)? As already suggested, box squats would probably benefit you in terms of getting the technique down, if your body is even ready to squat. Another question I have is do lunges hurt you as well? You started with a BB split, which in my experience, has a greater potential to lead to imbalances in the body and issues down the road. As others stated, POST A VIDEO and squatting 3 times per week when your knees are already irritated is not the best idea.
To others who have posted:
HavelronWillLift - when you say 90 degree squats, do you mean a true knee angle of 90 degrees or parallel to the floor? If the shins stay perpendicular to the floor, than 90 degrees will bring you to parallel, otherwise if you have anterior knee translation, 90 degrees will leave you above parallel (see the photo I attached for reference of a parallel squat with the red arrows I drew in, which show parallel with that squat position is at about 30-45 degrees past the 90 degrees of knee flexion). Most “knee problems” are easily fixable - either technique based or soft tissue/mobility/muscle activation and imbalances. Patella instability CAN be the result of VMO weakness, but IMO most patellar instability problems come from the hips. I do agree that if you can’t squat deep without pain that you shouldn’t do it, but you should address teh underlying issues so that you CAN squat deep. Full squats are a very (I hate using this word) “functional” movement. IMO, ATG squats are a better movement as long as your body is ready and able to perform that full range of motion.
Other bits of mis-information: There are only THREE hamstring muscles (biceps femoris, semitendinosus, semimembranosus). ALL are knee flexors AND hip extensors. Suggesting to do lying leg curls is a weak suggestion for the OP. Why would you only address one movement that the muscles produce. Also, the knee flexion motion that the hamstrings provide act as an isometric stabilizer to the knee during the squat, and the loads that would be placed on the tissue during a lying leg curl would not be as beneficial as other exercises.
The examples of Ed Conan is HORRIBLE. The weight he was using was way more than over 95% of the people on here could handle. Also, how many times has he squatted that much WITHOUT injury. That example would be like me showing a bad NASCAR crash and telling people never to go out and drive again! Torn meniscus, patellar subluxation, muscle tears, etc are all risks associated with powerlifting. All activity has a risk associated with it.
There, now I feel better! 
[quote]LevelHeaded wrote:
Other bits of mis-information: There are only THREE hamstring muscles (biceps femoris, semitendinosus, semimembranosus). ALL are knee flexors AND hip extensors.
[/quote]
I stand corrected. Three muscles, four heads. I need to do some digging and figure out where I read that leg curls only actively work one of the four, though. I know I read it somewhere.
[quote]JayPierce wrote:
I stand corrected. Three muscles, four heads. I need to do some digging and figure out where I read that leg curls only actively work one of the four, though. I know I read it somewhere.[/quote]
If you want to get extremely technical, there is the semitendinosus, semimembranosus, and the biceps femoris which has a long head and a short head. So you are correct that there are four heads. But IMO, you are grasping at straws when you start to try to break down the long head and short head of the biceps femoris.
To correct you again, there is not only “one of the four” that leg curls activate. All four “heads” actively flex the knee, so all four will actively work during leg curls (though some may have limited activity depending on the degree of hip extension that is present during the knee flexion). Only the short head of the biceps femoris does not extend at the hip since it originates at lateral lip of the linea aspera of the femur. The long head of the biceps femoris, semitendinosus, and semimembranosus all attach at the ischeal tuberosity so they actively extend the hip.
So, OP, can we get a video? Preferably 2 angles, from the side and front would be fine. Better than what we have now. I think we all can start to critique errors in form asap when that is up. With that said, do a double and have someone walk from the side and front (make sure they are level with your hip and not just standing up looking down.
No need to argue anatomy here, I think we all can google this shit, which doesn’t help the OP (who has google, right? haha)
If anything just take a shitty video with your phone and upload it, its better than what we have now.
[quote]LevelHeaded wrote:
[quote]JayPierce wrote:
I stand corrected. Three muscles, four heads. I need to do some digging and figure out where I read that leg curls only actively work one of the four, though. I know I read it somewhere.[/quote]
If you want to get extremely technical, there is the semitendinosus, semimembranosus, and the biceps femoris which has a long head and a short head. So you are correct that there are four heads. But IMO, you are grasping at straws when you start to try to break down the long head and short head of the biceps femoris.[/quote]
You’re absolutely right. When you look at the muscle chart, it looks like four distinct muscles, though. That’s how I got it confused.
Right again. I don’t know how the hell I got that one mixed up.
[quote]HaveIronWillLift wrote:
[quote]2) The OP is doing PL-type squats, which emphasize the glutes and hams much more than other types of squats. That makes the article you posted irrelevant to the OP’s situation.
[quote]3) The VMO is not the teardop shaped muscle. The Vastus Medialis is the teardrop shaped muscle. The VMO is the portion of the VM that is situated diagonally, hence the name Vastus Medialis Obliquus.
[quote]4) Why would you reference a viewpoint you don’t agree with? That doesn’t make a damn bit of sense.
You are not a fool for taking a viewpoint that is different from others. You are a fool for taking an incorrect viewpoint without the knowledge or experience to support that viewpoint, and arguing against people who have the experience to know what they are talking about.
[quote]5) Leg curls only work one of the four muscles of the hamstrings. The other three are hip extensors only.
[quote]6) You cannot take a vid Ed Coan blowing out a knee while squatting 4 metric fuck-tons and apply it to a situation concerning a mere mortal. Mr. Coan was pushing the limits not only of muscle; but of bone, tendons, ligaments, pain tolerance, structural flooring, and usually the bar itself.
We need some dedicated moderator(s) in here (ala PX in the bb forum) to keep the trolls out… The injury forum is really the last place for people like that to run amok.
And I hope BBB and co chime in.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
We need some dedicated moderator(s) in here (ala PX in the bb forum) to keep the trolls out… The injury forum is really the last place for people like that to run amok.
And I hope BBB and co chime in.
[/quote]
I agree that we need better moderation, hence why I was trying to correct the blatant incorrect and misguiding information.
But essentially for the OP, he only has generally dull pain except after heavy squats and the pain is worsened by knee extension and decreased by knee flexion/quad stretch. The one thing he still hasn’t said is where specifically the pain is located, though from what he has said, I would assume it is anterior knee pain and probably a patellar tendinopathy issue. Until he posts a video of squat technique, not much more advice can be given that hasn’t already been gave.
Just an option as I am doing similar 5X5 program and may take some stress off
When you struggle go to 3X5 and keep increasing weight
When you stall drop back below the last 5X5 weight and go back to 5X5 then 3X5 again (hopefully at heavier loads)
Sometimes I find I recover in 2 days sometimes 5 but recommend you respect recovery times while getting pain
This is what I do - Maybe something useful for you there - or not
PS In reference to an earlier post by someone
If you are doing low bar back squat and not using significant hamstring/glute there is a problem
[quote]LevelHeaded wrote:
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
We need some dedicated moderator(s) in here (ala PX in the bb forum) to keep the trolls out… The injury forum is really the last place for people like that to run amok.
And I hope BBB and co chime in.
[/quote]
I agree that we need better moderation, hence why I was trying to correct the blatant incorrect and misguiding information.
But essentially for the OP, he only has generally dull pain except after heavy squats and the pain is worsened by knee extension and decreased by knee flexion/quad stretch. The one thing he still hasn’t said is where specifically the pain is located, though from what he has said, I would assume it is anterior knee pain and probably a patellar tendinopathy issue. Until he posts a video of squat technique, not much more advice can be given that hasn’t already been gave.[/quote]
A far as the anterior pain goes, could it be as simple as the articular cartilage just being worn down?
I had a similair issue after my acl+meniscus but the problem was an anteromedial abnormality on the articular cartilage.
Very similairly to the OP it was generally fine untill I hit loaded extension, at this point patellar tracking could even be off because of muscular imbalances.
My MO was
in my case part of the problem was a hip tilt as well. Also when you tend to suffer from knee problems in one leg your hips and calves will try and take on more of the work leaving you with a horrible “side shuffling” squat as your body tries to avoid driving with the knee joint.
Along with the video these are cues you should “feel” when going through the movement.
I’m having a very similar problem with the knees due to heavy squats with expected poor form.
Started about a week and a half ago I went to the gym the day after a two 90 minute soccer matches in the rain. My calves were damned sore so I think I might have bowed my knees out on the 3x5 117.5 kg squat. Nothing hurt at the gym but a day or two later my right knee had intense pain when walking up and down stairs. I grabbed a neoprene knee brace and wrapped it then hit the gym for two more stronglift squat workouts. On sunday (xmas no other) I decided to drop the weight to 107.5kg and try 5x5 again. Also did 2x5 set of 105kg deadlifts.
Now my left knee also hurts. I can head it pop and crack sometimes when I walk so I swapped the knee brace to the left knee. It doesn’t hurt all the time, mainly stairs. I work for a hong kong firm in China and commute 16km each day through hellish traffic on a road bike, not too much pain when biking.
On tuesday I went to the sports medicine hospital and the doc (again only speaks chinese, but i speak decent chinese) had me lie down and bent my right knee in every which way none of which yielded pain so he ruled out a tear or fracture. I complained about the left knee and said I could hear it pop and crack sometimes, I think he said the muscle needs to get re strengthened and didn’t seem to worried.
Through the past 3 years I’ve always been a bit skeptical about Chinese doctors but this guy seemed alright.
He prescribed me with: a) glucosamine hydrochloride .750 mg to take twice daily to strengthen joints
b) a strong NSAID anti-inflammatory
c) some chinese medicine pads and spray which have a cool numbing effect
They did 1 session of electric stimulated acupuncture on the right knee and told me to come back twice a week for acupuncture sessions. I also want to start the left knee too.
I know this is my fault for squatting deep (below or at parallel) with an injury but damn I didn’t think both of my knees would be gone! As for now I cut out squats and DL which is a huge part of my workout so I have to do other core exercises. I’m thinking about getting someone to help me fix my form and then do bar squats to help strengthen my knees. This a good idea?
Any good PT exercises. The nurse told me to get a bag fill it with something heavy and strap it to my leg and lift. I tried just putting half kilo weights in cargo pockets but I don’t think that will suffice. Cannot find a foam roller over here, but I could get a tennis ball…
Really appreciate any help/advice/jest
I got an MRI and I translated some of the chiense, So far as I know there aren’t any tears but they said something about bone marrow edema and fluid swelling. I’m going to a doc next week after the new years holiday to get it interpreted. The radiologist said to take it easy for 3 months. Including no more biking to work. Shit, anyone here of this bone edema nonsense? The info I’m getting off the net isn’t very helpful.