Kirk Cameron, YOU FAIL

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
403

[quote]Makavali wrote:
mattfelts wrote:
Sarev0k wrote:
One could argue that darwin’s works have even accelerated racial tensions today. Social darwinism is based on the thought of men being born superior to other men. Sound familiar? Darwin was more of a social antagonist than a scientist. If youve ever even read any of darwin’s less popular works, youd realize that he was a huge racist, him and his buddies often referring to black people and other races as less developed and inferior. Thats just WRONG.

On another note, believing in evolution ultimately results in realizing that your existence is pointless.

Just to die and feed the earth? C’mon now.

Exactly! The problem with evolution to the Chrtistian is that it does not in all represent the way a loving God would have for people that he loves. I mean to set the world in process and to then leave us with these cruel means to develop. Not the God that I believe in.

Look there are some really smart people on both sides of the debate on this board (me excluded) because I have never set through an astrophysics class, could barely make it through freshman chemistry and physics. But I want to be civil, I think that debate on this issue is reasonable and it entertains me. However as I said earlier God is not ringing his hands over this issue and is not worried about a debate on T-Nation deciding the fate of the universe, or any debate over this issue. Kirk Cameron is not going to decide the fate of the universe. When Christian start sticking to the real issue which is showing the love of Christ to ALL, then we will make a difference. I mean no one any disrespect, because to me it does not shake my faith in anyway. And if that means I am close minded then so be it (in all due respect)

Basically you start with the answer and look for evidence to support it.[/quote]

Yeah…kind of the way that people that hold such disdain for Christianity believe in evolution

404

[quote]mattfelts wrote:
Makavali wrote:
mattfelts wrote:
Sarev0k wrote:
One could argue that darwin’s works have even accelerated racial tensions today. Social darwinism is based on the thought of men being born superior to other men. Sound familiar? Darwin was more of a social antagonist than a scientist. If youve ever even read any of darwin’s less popular works, youd realize that he was a huge racist, him and his buddies often referring to black people and other races as less developed and inferior. Thats just WRONG.

On another note, believing in evolution ultimately results in realizing that your existence is pointless.

Just to die and feed the earth? C’mon now.

Exactly! The problem with evolution to the Chrtistian is that it does not in all represent the way a loving God would have for people that he loves. I mean to set the world in process and to then leave us with these cruel means to develop. Not the God that I believe in.

Look there are some really smart people on both sides of the debate on this board (me excluded) because I have never set through an astrophysics class, could barely make it through freshman chemistry and physics. But I want to be civil, I think that debate on this issue is reasonable and it entertains me. However as I said earlier God is not ringing his hands over this issue and is not worried about a debate on T-Nation deciding the fate of the universe, or any debate over this issue. Kirk Cameron is not going to decide the fate of the universe. When Christian start sticking to the real issue which is showing the love of Christ to ALL, then we will make a difference. I mean no one any disrespect, because to me it does not shake my faith in anyway. And if that means I am close minded then so be it (in all due respect)

Basically you start with the answer and look for evidence to support it.

Yeah…kind of the way that people that hold such disdain for Christianity believe in evolution[/quote]

One more thing regarding this statement. If you dont think that these scientist that you hold in such high esteem do the exact same thing then I don’t think your being very honest. Im sure that these young impressionable students that go off to school and are indoctrinated into evolution and other theories, spend the rest of their scientific career trying to prove these theory they believe in. And I will be honest and say that some Christians have blinders on.

Im not saying that evolution in any form does not occur, it’s obvious that we have evolved in some form. But to say that we have evolved into one species from another I do not believe to be true, and see no evidence for it.

405

[quote]mattfelts wrote:
One more thing regarding this statement. If you dont think that these scientist that you hold in such high esteem do the exact same thing then I don’t think your being very honest. Im sure that these young impressionable students that go off to school and are indoctrinated into evolution and other theories, spend the rest of their scientific career trying to prove these theory they believe in. And I will be honest and say that some Christians have blinders on.[/quote]

I think you honestly don’t get what any good scientist is trying to do. If he was trying to “prove” evolution, that means one failed experiment could derail evolutionary theory. A good scientist would accept this, a creationist would ignore it.

406

[quote]Makavali wrote:
mattfelts wrote:
One more thing regarding this statement. If you dont think that these scientist that you hold in such high esteem do the exact same thing then I don’t think your being very honest. Im sure that these young impressionable students that go off to school and are indoctrinated into evolution and other theories, spend the rest of their scientific career trying to prove these theory they believe in. And I will be honest and say that some Christians have blinders on.

I think you honestly don’t get what any good scientist is trying to do. If he was trying to “prove” evolution, that means one failed experiment could derail evolutionary theory. A good scientist would accept this, a creationist would ignore it.[/quote]

Another thing to consider is that disproving evolution would gain a scientist much, much more fame and notoriety than proving it. That would be a huge deal in the scientific community. As a result, I’m certain that there are quite a few young scientists (Christian and Athiest alike) who have tried their asses off to disprove the theory of evolution. Yet the theory still has yet to be disproven.

407

[quote]mattfelts wrote:
Yeah…kind of the way that people that hold such disdain for Christianity believe in evolution[/quote]

I guess that’s why all those Indian and Japanese scientists that grow up with relatively no exposure to christianity could care less about evolution! Get over yourself, people believe in evolution because it is a tested theory which is supported by a wealth of data and possesses unparalleled explanatory power.

408

[quote]fleeben wrote:
mattfelts wrote:
Yeah…kind of the way that people that hold such disdain for Christianity believe in evolution

I guess that’s why all those Indian and Japanese scientists that grow up with relatively no exposure to christianity could care less about evolution! Get over yourself, people believe in evolution because it is a tested theory which is supported by a wealth of data and possesses unparalleled explanatory power.

[/quote]

Get over myself? Look, as I stated earlier I believe that there is evidence to support evolution within a species…but you have yet to prove that we have evolved form apes or fish or whatever else these scientists believe we evolved from. Please disprove creationism…my mind is wide open.

409

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Makavali wrote:
mattfelts wrote:
One more thing regarding this statement. If you dont think that these scientist that you hold in such high esteem do the exact same thing then I don’t think your being very honest. Im sure that these young impressionable students that go off to school and are indoctrinated into evolution and other theories, spend the rest of their scientific career trying to prove these theory they believe in. And I will be honest and say that some Christians have blinders on.

I think you honestly don’t get what any good scientist is trying to do. If he was trying to “prove” evolution, that means one failed experiment could derail evolutionary theory. A good scientist would accept this, a creationist would ignore it.

Kind of like the scientists who try thier asses off to prove thier is life on mars, because if they could prove there was life on mars…well then…now your going to really shake up these creationists

Another thing to consider is that disproving evolution would gain a scientist much, much more fame and notoriety than proving it. That would be a huge deal in the scientific community. As a result, I’m certain that there are quite a few young scientists (Christian and Athiest alike) who have tried their asses off to disprove the theory of evolution. Yet the theory still has yet to be disproven.[/quote]

411

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Makavali wrote:
mattfelts wrote:
One more thing regarding this statement. If you dont think that these scientist that you hold in such high esteem do the exact same thing then I don’t think your being very honest. Im sure that these young impressionable students that go off to school and are indoctrinated into evolution and other theories, spend the rest of their scientific career trying to prove these theory they believe in. And I will be honest and say that some Christians have blinders on.

I think you honestly don’t get what any good scientist is trying to do. If he was trying to “prove” evolution, that means one failed experiment could derail evolutionary theory. A good scientist would accept this, a creationist would ignore it.

Another thing to consider is that disproving evolution would gain a scientist much, much more fame and notoriety than proving it. That would be a huge deal in the scientific community. As a result, I’m certain that there are quite a few young scientists (Christian and Athiest alike) who have tried their asses off to disprove the theory of evolution. Yet the theory still has yet to be disproven.

Ye have great faith that the faith of evolutionists is not all that strong and that they are dedicated, objective seekers and purveyors of Truth. Ye also have a lot to learn about the world, SentoNaiveGuy. Scientists, both creationists and evolutionists alike, are merely fallible humans beset with prejudices and preconceptions just like you and me…and the rest of world, friend. Hang around this terrestrial orb a few decades and you too might have a revelation that all is not as it seems to be.[/quote]

Ecactly…the idea that these guys are just merely truth seekers and do not have any preconceived ideas or world views is laughable to me. And yes as you said on both sides. Plus we already see what happens to scientists who believe in creationism…they are laughed out of the scientific community…and then what happens…well that means no funding for this scientist. So Im sure there are alot trying disprove evolution. No, they would rather just find a new set of fossil reords that somehow proves we came from an ape like creature.

412

Push,

For the sake of my own research (as I don’t see this thread heading anywhere anytime soon), what would you say are the Top 5 (or even 3) objections that creationists have towards evolution (or, at least, what are yours?)?

I’m not asking for reams of data or anything like that, just a few sentences. And I won’t hit up Google and attempt to refute them point-by-point. You can even PM me if you’d like to prevent others from doing this.

I just want to be able to wrap my head around the creationist perspective and feel that would be a good starting point.

415

“…I’ve found that the most significant and meaningful achievement is to experience God in our lives. And for our values to have integrity and create worthwhile benefits, they need to be consistent with God’s values.”

-Martin Estrin, author of Is Christianity Misunderstood? and Objective Journalist on the subject of Evolution and Creationism

From the article you quoted, push (which I’m not entirely sure you read thoroughly, as it’s mostly nonsense and stuff you already know better about):

[quote]“Humans don’t seem very satisfied. There is always something else they feel they need. Where are they trying to get to? On the other hand, most apes are quite content. If I were to apply some home-spun logic to the theory of evolution, then I would logically have to believe that apes evolved from man.”

“If evolution means that a species changes to improve itself, it seems more logical that humans would grow hair to keep warm, reduce their diet to the most nutritious foods, eliminate high mortgages by adapting to the outdoors, and do away with money, complex governments, saying what you don’t mean, war, stress, traffic congestion, and genocide (which occurs when you let other members of your species needlessly starve). Apes have accomplished all this.”

“But the most basic and difficult question of all is: How did inorganic material make the transition to organic, living cells? In fact, this was one of the first questions raised about evolution theory.”[/quote]

He also makes repeated references to humans evolving from monkeys. Pretty much every paragraph from that article is nonsense - those are just a few random ones. I don’t have time to discuss it much right now, as I have a test at 5.

I’m not even sure it’s worth discussing.

417

[quote]pushharder wrote:
For the sake of discussion let’s completely dismiss Estrin based on what you posted - just for giggles or whatever reason you might choose. Let’s say he’s a complete crackpot.

OK.

Now:

“Are evolutionists disingenuous? In the beginning, the proponents of evolution theory asked that society become broad-minded to allow the free expression of their minority point-of-view. But now that Darwinists represent the majority viewpoint, they have become narrow-minded, forcing the exclusion in the free marketplace of ideas of differing opinions.”

Is this statement ^^ in and of itself true or false? I contend it is true beyond any reasonable reproach.[/quote]

I only want to dismiss him because that article made it clear that he really doesn’t have much of an idea about the subject he is discussing.

I feel myself potentially getting sucked back in here, and I can’t have that right now. Best of luck with your business obligation, push. I’m going to have to make myself scarce until later tonight.

418

[quote]pushharder wrote:
anonym wrote:
“…I’ve found that the most significant and meaningful achievement is to experience God in our lives. And for our values to have integrity and create worthwhile benefits, they need to be consistent with God’s values.”

-Martin Estrin, author of Is Christianity Misunderstood? and Objective Journalist on the subject of Evolution and Creationism

From the article you quoted, push (which I’m not entirely sure you read thoroughly, as it’s mostly nonsense and stuff you already know better about):
“Humans don’t seem very satisfied. There is always something else they feel they need. Where are they trying to get to? On the other hand, most apes are quite content. If I were to apply some home-spun logic to the theory of evolution, then I would logically have to believe that apes evolved from man.”

“If evolution means that a species changes to improve itself, it seems more logical that humans would grow hair to keep warm, reduce their diet to the most nutritious foods, eliminate high mortgages by adapting to the outdoors, and do away with money, complex governments, saying what you don’t mean, war, stress, traffic congestion, and genocide (which occurs when you let other members of your species needlessly starve). Apes have accomplished all this.”

“But the most basic and difficult question of all is: How did inorganic material make the transition to organic, living cells? In fact, this was one of the first questions raised about evolution theory.”

He also makes repeated references to humans evolving from monkeys. Pretty much every paragraph from that article is nonsense - those are just a few random ones. I don’t have time to discuss it much right now, as I have a test at 5.

I’m not even sure it’s worth discussing.

For the sake of discussion let’s completely dismiss Estrin based on what you posted - just for giggles or whatever reason you might choose. Let’s say he’s a complete crackpot.

OK.

Now:

“Are evolutionists disingenuous? In the beginning, the proponents of evolution theory asked that society become broad-minded to allow the free expression of their minority point-of-view. But now that Darwinists represent the majority viewpoint, they have become narrow-minded, forcing the exclusion in the free marketplace of ideas of differing opinions.”

Is this statement ^^ in and of itself true or false? I contend it is true beyond any reasonable reproach.[/quote]

In and of itself?

Should not what he has to say be taken into account?

Given that it involves questions that are not even treated by the TOE?

What does he want?

Equal time for ignorant drivel?

419

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Makavali wrote:
mattfelts wrote:
One more thing regarding this statement. If you dont think that these scientist that you hold in such high esteem do the exact same thing then I don’t think your being very honest. Im sure that these young impressionable students that go off to school and are indoctrinated into evolution and other theories, spend the rest of their scientific career trying to prove these theory they believe in. And I will be honest and say that some Christians have blinders on.

I think you honestly don’t get what any good scientist is trying to do. If he was trying to “prove” evolution, that means one failed experiment could derail evolutionary theory. A good scientist would accept this, a creationist would ignore it.

Another thing to consider is that disproving evolution would gain a scientist much, much more fame and notoriety than proving it. That would be a huge deal in the scientific community. As a result, I’m certain that there are quite a few young scientists (Christian and Athiest alike) who have tried their asses off to disprove the theory of evolution. Yet the theory still has yet to be disproven.

Ye have great faith that the faith of evolutionists is not all that strong and that they are dedicated, objective seekers and purveyors of Truth. Ye also have a lot to learn about the world, SentoNaiveGuy. Scientists, both creationists and evolutionists alike, are merely fallible humans beset with prejudices and preconceptions just like you and me…and the rest of world, friend. Hang around this terrestrial orb a few decades and you too might have a revelation that all is not as it seems to be.[/quote]

Well, to be fair I never suggested that there weren’t those like the ones you described, simply seeking to maintain and support the status quo. All I said, which is true, is that if someone was really seeking to have their names in the history books, that disproving evolution would do it a lot faster than simply further proving evolution.

Also, that may be the case now, since evolution has such a strong evidence base to support it, and is very widely accepted as being a valid theory. But, don’t forget that when Darwin first purposed the theory, that it was highly debated by the rest of the scientific community. And, since the majority of evolutionary scientists today also believe in God, I’d bet that there have been a fair number throughout history who have sought to disprove evolution to support their prejudice and preconceptions.

422

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
…the majority of evolutionary scientists today also believe in God…

Cite references, please.[/quote]

Keep in mind that Catholicism is the largest Christian denomination by far.

Skip ahead to 6:43 to see a pie graph showing the percentage of Christians compared to other world religions from 2005, and a bar graph representing the number of Christian evolutionists vs Christian creationists. Sorry, but I didn’t want to spend hours searching for the original graph on the site that it was originally posted on.

Also, remember that Darwin himself was Christian, as well as James Hutton, Jean-Baptist Pierre Antoine de Monet, George Cuvier, Gregor Mendel, Alfred Russel Wallace and pretty much all of the early evolutionary scientists. Not to mention such modern day standouts as Ken Miller and Robert T Bakker. There’s also Theodosius Dobzhansky, one of the first geneticists, who was an orthodox Christian, and even though he believed that God created life said, “nothing in biology made sense except in light of evolution.”