[quote]anonym wrote:
Vegita wrote:
I would rather have 5 adults falsley imprisoned and thier lives ruined if it helped keep 1000 kids from being sexually abused in porn films. Hell even if it helped only 5 kids, the price would still be worth it.
Why?[/quote]
Because he is a child loving consequentialist.
And because it won´t be him that gets ass-raped in jail because he is a “pedophile”.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
Hell even if it helped only 5 kids, the price would still be worth it.
[/quote]
I’d suspect that something is very wrong with your trials if you’re showing a 1 innocent falsely imprisoned to 1 child’s predator convicted, ratio.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
snipeout wrote:
Yeah, until that well armed mob accuses you of something you didn’t do and they decide to string you up in your front yard.
Uhhh, this happens anyway. “Trial by jury” is trial by the same mob you think is not filled with justice. The only difference is there is no pretense of civility with “mob justice”. You think people lose their sense of justice just because some formal institution exists to “enforce” it? The idea of justice has to exist before an institution can exist to provide it. And frankly, I think we can provide justice to our individual communities with out police or government courts just fine.
I prefer to take my chances with “chaotic” self interest than the idea of uniformed justice. Maybe “mob justice” would keep people minding their own business for a change.
Butt the fuck out![/quote]
Dragging the alleged pedo off into the woods to be hanged without a trial protects the accused’s rights more than our system does now. Right…
In a just society this guy would not be charged with a crime in the first place.
I can also imagine a non-profit type organizations that might exist in a just society that would attempt to find the real criminals who force children into such predicaments.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Mak, Vegita, are you suggesting that sexual offenses against children are worse than manslaughter?[/quote]
I am.
Kill a grown man, and he has likely reproduced and spread his seed. A child still has a lot to offer society and being molested seems to have this unfortunate side effect of hindering that.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
lixy wrote:
Mak, Vegita, are you suggesting that sexual offenses against children are worse than manslaughter?
I am.
Kill a grown man, and he has likely reproduced and spread his seed. A child still has a lot to offer society and being molested seems to have this unfortunate side effect of hindering that.[/quote]
Well, children can be victims of manslaughter, as well. Potentially benefiting society is not exclusive to them, either.
They can also “spread their seed” despite being molested - not so much when they get pegged by a car.
[quote]anonym wrote:
Well, children can be victims of manslaughter, as well. Potentially benefiting society is not exclusive to them, either.[/quote]
Point. But they have more likelihood of benefiting society.
A lot of sexual abuse victims have hangups when it comes to sex, I’d call that a hindrance.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
anonym wrote:
Well, children can be victims of manslaughter, as well. Potentially benefiting society is not exclusive to them, either.
Point. But they have more likelihood of benefiting society. [/quote]
Such a statement assumes an uneven distibution of “likelyhood” to benefit society over time.
The only thing you can say with absolute certainty is that they have more potential to benefit society.
True. But I have a feeling that you’re blowning any such “hindrance” way out of proportions.
Assuming moletation of a child is worse that manslaughter (a statement that I find absurd!), banning possession of kiddie porn pictures (virtual or otherwise) isn’t doing much to protect the children. Deterrence would work much better.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
A lot of sexual abuse victims have hangups when it comes to sex, I’d call that a hindrance.[/quote]
It could be argued that being dead is a bigger obstacle than a hangup.
Been away, late catching up to this thread, but in response to Lifticus’s intellectual gems:
Incorrect - common sense tells me that possession of something can be a crime if, in fact, we as a society decide that possession encourages the initial problem we are trying to prevent in the first place: creation, distribution, etc., of something we find objectionable.
An anarchist’s definition of a “common sense” approach is stillborn right out of the gate - the very assumption of anarchism is contradicted by common sense.
The mere act of downloading is an incentive to producers, dumbass - it is a choate signal of demand, which is what drives the supply. Further to your nonsense, it is not profits that create necessary feedback - it is the opportunity for profits that initially drive producers to produce - and we know that because entrepreneurs take risks in the market and often fail because they (1) sensed demand, (2) took a shot at supply, and (3) didn’t make the profits they thought they would. They act on demand, and then learn that there aren’t sufficient profits after the fact.
It’s almost as if you have never been anywhere near a real business enterprise or real market.
The trading market for child porn sends signals of demand, and potential producers learn of that demand and learn who these potential consumers are, thus providing the exact kinds of incentives to produce child porn we want to shut down.
We want to impose a “tax” on this - drive up the costs to consume child pornography - in order to have less of it. Drying up the “possession” market through criminal liability is part of that “tax”. And the benefits are worth the costs, and it is the moral thing to do.
If a brainless, utopian anarchist completely detached from reality and whose “expertise” amounts to nothing more than following the silly rants of fringe internet philosophers disagrees, there is only one follow-up question: “who cares?”
[quote]lixy wrote:
Mak, Vegita, are you suggesting that sexual offenses against children are worse than manslaughter?[/quote]
In many cases yes. These kids will grow up to have issues at the least.Many will grow up to be abusers. It doesn’t end with your average molester’s sentence. This is different than armed robbery and so many other crimes.
Good job Tiribulus.
And liftic, please read this through until you understand. If someone pays money for videos or pictures of children being molested they are supporting their buisness because money obviously holds some value to them. The same people typically value the same type of material they distribute since it is hard to get a hold of and not so surprisingly, a lot of people molesting children are turned on by children being molested. So guess what trading the material for other material of the same nature is. That’s right. Trading. Or maybe an exchange of information, it does however still support their buisness.
And to the guy who brought up lynch mobs. That’s a great idea. As long as everyone thinks like you, and you know that isn’t how it is. You’d still witness punishments you deem unjust.
I definately do consent with executing persons found guilty of particular crimes by a jury and judge behind the courthouse though. Sure some people will get wrongly convicted and executed, but with jurys and judges as skilled as they are, the people saved will greatly outnumber the number wrongly executed. An innocent person getting killed is just that, no matter if it’s the government of your nation or a deranged madman let out of jail doing the deed.
Why spend a million rehabilitating someone who has proved themself unfit to function in a society when you could save five persons lives’ for the same ammount?
And Tirib, you really did do the right thing. You ming have saved several children from being molested or even being murdered because of the leads you handed the feds. And obviously from this guy too. Be proud of it.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
In a just society this guy would not be charged with a crime in the first place.
I can also imagine a non-profit type organizations that might exist in a just society that would attempt to find the real criminals who force children into such predicaments.[/quote]
You are really delusional and not very bright. In a just society I would find the persons responsible for the production for the pornography, kill them and dump them in an unmarked grave.
[quote]tom63 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
In a just society this guy would not be charged with a crime in the first place.
I can also imagine a non-profit type organizations that might exist in a just society that would attempt to find the real criminals who force children into such predicaments.
You are really delusional and not very bright. In a just society I would find the persons responsible for the production for the pornography, kill them and dump them in an unmarked grave.
[/quote]
Yeah? and what would you do to the possessors of such material?
Good job for turning over the computer and calling the cops. Fucking chi mo’s need to be locked up. You could have also been viewed as a conspirator if you didn’t, thus getting you in trouble. Maybe not, but why take the chance.
On punishment for child molestors, the jury is still out for me. I don’t know what the research has found regarding the extent to which pedophilia is an unavoidable mental illness, vs. something that can be controlled. I have a hard time believing a pedophile has no control over his actions, so I’m leaning toward high accountability and commensurate severe punishment.
I wonder if serial murderers would be considered “mentally ill”. Using that same standard, how much control do they have over their actions? I know some people lack dopamine, which controls the aggression centers of the brain, and are literally incapable of controlling violent behavior.
The bottom line for me is life long imprisonment/mental institution for severe crimes where the behavior can’t be controlled, and capital punishment when it can.
[quote]forlife wrote:
On punishment for child molestors, the jury is still out for me. I don’t know what the research has found regarding the extent to which pedophilia is an unavoidable mental illness, vs. something that can be controlled. I have a hard time believing a pedophile has no control over his actions, so I’m leaning toward high accountability and commensurate severe punishment.[/quote]
If a raging hormone teenager can control his urges then so should any other person be able to. There is no excuse for violent behavior – or at least there should be no excuse.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
If a raging hormone teenager can control his urges then so should any other person be able to. There is no excuse for violent behavior – or at least there should be no excuse.[/quote]
There’s a difference between “raging hormones” and a severe brain chemical imbalance though. I know some people with brain injuries literally have no control over violent acts, in the same way a person with Tourettes can’t control verbal outbursts.
Bottom line for me is that accountability should be commensurate with the punishment received.
[quote]forlife wrote:
There’s a difference between “raging hormones” and a severe brain chemical imbalance though.[/quote]
So?! I don’t care about excuses for any behavior.