Kiddie Porn and the FBI

[quote]Vegita wrote:
I posted this and it didn’t come through so sorry if it double posts in the future.

For Lifty, You can’t argue that trading these pictures provides no stimulus for new material. Every single normal porn site that has free pics or videos has banner ads all over the place, along with redirecting links that hit randomly when content is clicked. These banned ads and redirect links make the person hosting the site money, the more hits and clicks they get on the site, the more money they make. This pushes them to search for new material thus creating the demand for new material even amongst people who don’t “pay” for it. You act as if there is some alltruistic child porn society that trades amongst eachother, material that was made before a certain date.

I also had a long winded second part about people who mess with kids having a different set of rules apply to them. And it stands, send a child molester into a federal prison and even the people who think killing, raping and stealing are just a part of life, will fuck that molester up bad. Even criminals put child sex offenders on a different level. I’ll leave it at that, you know where i’m going with it.

V[/quote]

We are not talking about that V. Where is the inherent crime in just possessing the photos? We can argue whether or not new photos will be produced based on the incentives a producer gets. I will give you that. But even then, how can we be sure the person making the profit is the one taking the photos?

I am still trying to get an answer as to why “possession” is a crime. How do we even prove the persons in the photos are “underage”? Surely, there are people who act underage because there is a profit to be made in fulfilling this demand. Should possession of that material be illegal too?

Is it merely the depiction of the act that is the crime? If so, then that is not the problem of the person in possession of the photos. It is the problem of the person who took them.

I agree with you about how society will handle such people. That is not a concern of mine. That is just the way it is.

Lifty,

Obviously, the person is taking the photos is doing so in part because there’s a market for them. Merely viewing them creates a market. I’m surprised that you don’t understand this.

Trib,

You did the right thing. CS Lewis said the definition of a man is that he defends the defenseless.

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Lifty,

Obviously, the person is taking the photos is doing so in part because there’s a market for them.[/quote]

Not necessarily. Maybe he makes them because he enjoys them and wants to share them and does not care about the profit.

Why is possession of the images a crime?

EDIT:

Case in point, that authors write books on certain subjects does not mean there is an inherent market for them. The same goes for any art created by artists. These objects may only demand their waste paper value.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
Lifty,

Obviously, the person is taking the photos is doing so in part because there’s a market for them.

Not necessarily. Maybe he makes them because he enjoys them and wants to share them and does not care about the profit.

Why is possession of the images a crime?[/quote]

Okay, fair enough. Let’s say, theoretically, there is a case where there is absolutely no market (I can’t believe you’re entertaining this idea at all lifty.)

But in that case, there is no way that the child would be able to consent to those photographs. And that is morally - and presumably legally - wrong. After all, it would be “stealing” from a libertarian/austrian point of view, correct?

Now, you could reply: “what about cartoons/drawings/animation?” There I would say that such a thing is morally reprehensible; in part because it encourages criminal behavior.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Vegita wrote:
I posted this and it didn’t come through so sorry if it double posts in the future.

For Lifty, You can’t argue that trading these pictures provides no stimulus for new material. Every single normal porn site that has free pics or videos has banner ads all over the place, along with redirecting links that hit randomly when content is clicked. These banned ads and redirect links make the person hosting the site money, the more hits and clicks they get on the site, the more money they make. This pushes them to search for new material thus creating the demand for new material even amongst people who don’t “pay” for it. You act as if there is some alltruistic child porn society that trades amongst eachother, material that was made before a certain date.

I also had a long winded second part about people who mess with kids having a different set of rules apply to them. And it stands, send a child molester into a federal prison and even the people who think killing, raping and stealing are just a part of life, will fuck that molester up bad. Even criminals put child sex offenders on a different level. I’ll leave it at that, you know where i’m going with it.

V

We are not talking about that V. Where is the inherent crime in just possessing the photos? We can argue whether or not new photos will be produced based on the incentives a producer gets. I will give you that. But even then, how can we be sure the person making the profit is the one taking the photos?

I am still trying to get an answer as to why “possession” is a crime. How do we even prove the persons in the photos are “underage”? Surely, there are people who act underage because there is a profit to be made in fulfilling this demand. Should possession of that material be illegal too?

Is it merely the depiction of the act that is the crime? If so, then that is not the problem of the person in possession of the photos. It is the problem of the person who took them.

I agree with you about how society will handle such people. That is not a concern of mine. That is just the way it is.[/quote]

Again, I understand your position on an absolute level, Possesion in and of itself hasn’t harmed a child per se. BUT this is where that standard of normal things doesn’t apply to children. It doesn’t matter if no children were actually hurt by a persons possession of a photo. The Common man, can with very little leap of faith, view it as harmful to children. One of the fecets of our society, is that if enough people view child pornography as that bad, then society has every right to ban the mere posession of such materials. If I owned a radiation proof suit I could obtain highly radioactive material with very little effect to myself, and If I lived out in the country, It would potentially pose no harm to anyone else. However, I could also just as easily take that highly radioactive material and hide it in a major city, eventually people would get radiation poisoning and get sick and possibly die. I do not think we should allow any random person to have radioactive material. It can be handled safely, but the risk is far far greater than any benefit that person could have with it. Same with child pornography, the chance that no child was hurt by the possesion of material, say you found it on the ground and kept it are so small, and the risk to children so great, our society has no problem banning the posession of such material outright. Further, I highly doubt the people who do possess such child pornography material, are doing so as a political statement that they are not hurting children. They do it because they are sick, they know the potential harm to children, and they need to be stopped, punished and removed from society.

Look, Like I said, I understand your argument on a very pure idealistic level, however, this argument you are making now, hurts your overall position because it is too radical. Regardless of the merits on an idealistic level, the argument just doesn’t wash in the real world, and by making it, you force people to choose between no government intervention and a lot of government intervetion. Because if people have to choose between the government banning guns and child porn, or Banning neither, they will take the ban on guns AND porn. Please focus on the big picture and wage your intellectual battles on arguments that are worth winning.

V

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
Lifty,

Obviously, the person is taking the photos is doing so in part because there’s a market for them.

Not necessarily. Maybe he makes them because he enjoys them and wants to share them and does not care about the profit.

Why is possession of the images a crime?

Okay, fair enough. Let’s say, theoretically, there is a case where there is absolutely no market (I can’t believe you’re entertaining this idea at all lifty.)

But in that case, there is no way that the child would be able to consent to those photographs. And that is morally - and presumably legally - wrong. After all, it would be “stealing” from a libertarian/austrian point of view, correct?

Now, you could reply: “what about cartoons/drawings/animation?” There I would say that such a thing is morally reprehensible; in part because it encourages criminal behavior.

[/quote]
You confuse the act of taking the photos of children with the act of possessing them. If possessing them it wrong then it is wrong to possess them even as evidence of a crime.

If it’s wrong then it is always wrong no matter the circumstance.

The German government will force providers to filter out kiddie porn sites, the Federal Crime Agency (Bundeskriminalamt) will provide the necessary lists.

How safe and sound the children will sleep from now on!

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
Lifty,

Obviously, the person is taking the photos is doing so in part because there’s a market for them.

Not necessarily. Maybe he makes them because he enjoys them and wants to share them and does not care about the profit.

Why is possession of the images a crime?

Okay, fair enough. Let’s say, theoretically, there is a case where there is absolutely no market (I can’t believe you’re entertaining this idea at all lifty.)

But in that case, there is no way that the child would be able to consent to those photographs. And that is morally - and presumably legally - wrong. After all, it would be “stealing” from a libertarian/austrian point of view, correct?

Now, you could reply: “what about cartoons/drawings/animation?” There I would say that such a thing is morally reprehensible; in part because it encourages criminal behavior.

You confuse the act of taking the photos of children with the act of possessing them. If possessing them it wrong then it is wrong to possess them even as evidence of a crime.

If it’s wrong then it is always wrong no matter the circumstance.[/quote]

No, it’s not the same. People don’t have teleporters or other such devices. If one posesses the banned property, only as a facility to turn that property over to authorities, who we the people put in place to deal with such occurances. Then no it is no illegal to be in posession of said property. Possessing it for personal use, Or Business use would be what is illegal.

I really don’t see why you are beating this horse, regardless if your point has merit in an ideal situation, it just doesn’t have any in the real world. If you stand by your point so strongly, then why not obtain some child porn to make your point? I think you wouldn’t, because you know the simple act of possessing it is wrong.

Again, along with possession, there has to be some intent behind it. If you e-mailed me child porn, it hit my inbox, I opened it ,saw it and instantly deleted it, it may still reside on my computer somewhere in an archived file, or a temp file or wherever. But, I did not seek tha material, and caould pretty easily prove I was not interested in keeping the material. I’m sure a good computer guy could tell when I opened the e-mail and when I deleted it. If were talking about seconds, or possibly even a minute, i’m pretty sure a court of law would not find me guilty.

V

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Good post, Veg - a more elaborate and definitive way of saying sometimes/many times common sense should prevail over pure ideology.[/quote]

But it isn’t common sense. There is no consistency in the logic.

Where is the line to be drawn on crimes dealing with possession?

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Good post, Veg - a more elaborate and definitive way of saying sometimes/many times common sense should prevail over pure ideology.

But it isn’t common sense. There is no consistency in the logic.

Where is the line to be drawn on crimes dealing with possession?[/quote]

See my last post to you, ultimately it’s for a jury to decide. Again, it’s not posession in and of itself. If someone slipped a child porn photo into my jacket pocket and I was not aware of it’s existance, Regardless of the outcome, I would not be guilty. I may be found guilty, but no system can be perfect. If you have multiple pictures on your computer, with different date stamps, and none of them have been deleted, then you are guilty, and regardless of the actual verdict, you will always be guilty. But for the cases where there is doubt, thats what a jury is for, BUT again, It’s really not OK to Posess Child porn in 99.9999% of the publics eyes, so any jury is going to hang you by the balls if you are found to be in posession of the stuff. (barring certain circumstances, like transferring the evidence to the police etc…)

V

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
The German government will force providers to filter out kiddie porn sites, the Federal Crime Agency (Bundeskriminalamt) will provide the necessary lists.

How safe and sound the children will sleep from now on! [/quote]

Follow closely.

I have a feeling that kiddie porn sites (are there even any on the public unencrypted internet?) will constitute a minority in that “list”.

Also, many people tend to forget all the data retention laws that essentially criminalize anonymous communication being passed under the “fight kiddie porn” banner.

Just wanted to point out that so-called liberals like Makavali and me are in complete agreement about the OP doing the right thing. It’s a little freaky agreeing with someone like Thunder, but it is what it is.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
<<< I can tell you I will disagree with anyone out of hand who tries to decide for a whole group of people what is best for them.

Besides, Schwarzfahrer makes a good point. How does anyone prove the persons in these images are of the “age of consent”?

Hypothetical question:

If instead of finding these images on someone’s hard drive the OP had walked in on the man masturbating over some images of children but they were not “pornographic” in nature should that also be considered a crime considering the content of the images are not depicting sexual acts with minors?[/quote]

You are too much man.

I can tell you that if a whole group of people decides to develop a fancy for anything that harms the society they are members of, that society will take action, or at least should whether you like it or not.

There are all kinds of exceptional scenarios that could be mused over til the end of time. Anybody who saw what I did and persisted in these inane ramblings should be sterilized forthwith lest they inflict the world with copies of themselves.

[quote]forlife wrote:
Just wanted to point out that so-called liberals like Makavali and me are in complete agreement about the OP doing the right thing. It’s a little freaky agreeing with someone like Thunder, but it is what it is.[/quote]

We libs may be depraved morally bankrupt weirdos, but even we have limits.

But seriously, you know when a season murderer looks at a guy and thinks “That shit is fucked up” that the guy he’s looking at has done something REALLY fucked up.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
forlife wrote:
Just wanted to point out that so-called liberals like Makavali and me are in complete agreement about the OP doing the right thing. It’s a little freaky agreeing with someone like Thunder, but it is what it is.

We libs may be depraved morally bankrupt weirdos, but even we have limits.

But seriously, you know when a season murderer looks at a guy and thinks “That shit is fucked up” that the guy he’s looking at has done something REALLY fucked up.[/quote]

Thats is exactly the whole point I was trying to make to lifty. There are some things even the scum of the world think is fucked up. And when you enter into that realm, there is generally a shoot first ask later, or not at all mentality. And what I think, is that thats just fine. I would rather have 5 adults falsley imprisoned and thier lives ruined if it helped keep 1000 kids from being sexually abused in porn films. Hell even if it helped only 5 kids, the price would still be worth it. I mean you have to have a trial because then people could just set someone up, but after the trial, if they are found guilty, no prison, take them out to the front of the courthouse and put a bullet in the back of their skull. After about 5 of these “shows” hit the airways, all the borderline dudes (and women) who are flirting with that part of themselves who think that they aren’t really doing anything wrong, will be like, nope, I’m not gonna even go there. And probably most of these people started out borderline, I mean sure some were probably just either heavily abused themselves as children, and some might have just been wired wrong. I just think some televised capital punishment, for sexual offenses against children, would be a good thing for society.

V

Mak, Vegita, are you suggesting that sexual offenses against children are worse than manslaughter?

[quote]Vegita wrote:
I would rather have 5 adults falsley imprisoned and thier lives ruined if it helped keep 1000 kids from being sexually abused in porn films. Hell even if it helped only 5 kids, the price would still be worth it.[/quote]

Why?

[quote]anonym wrote:
Vegita wrote:
I would rather have 5 adults falsley imprisoned and thier lives ruined if it helped keep 1000 kids from being sexually abused in porn films. Hell even if it helped only 5 kids, the price would still be worth it.

Why?[/quote]

Because of the think-of-the-children common sense.