Kettlebell Cleans: What's the Point?

Eh, barbells were easier. Better balance, etc. But “better?” That is pretty hard to qualify, isn’t it? I’m no KB monkey. I have a few, use them when the mood strikes, but I’m not convinced that any weight is better than any other. They all have their own challenges, don’t they? I would be tempted to say an axle or a thick barbell is better, but that wouldn’t hold true if you were Olympic lifting. Maybe Dumbbells are better than barbells? Well, for certain things, yes.

Point being that KB’s are just as useful but the learning curve isn’t going to make them a favorite of cardio bunnies anytime soon, and since 95% of the fitness industry is aimed at your average house wife who thinks her thighs need toned, you just aren’t going to see a ton of commercial gyms with KB’s. That being said, the two gyms I train in when I travel to Minneapolis have KB’s (though they keep them locked up with bike chain, lest some moron decide to injure themselves… why not lock up all the weights?)

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
Andrew.Cook wrote:
Well, I think that the complaint really isn’t about the implement used, but rather the weight.

I’d agree, but I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily the weight, but it’s knowing the reason for choosing that exercise (just like every exercise in every program you’ll ever perform).

Kettlebells function best when used for some type of cardio, or to train explosive/reactive force. They’re not the ideal choice if your goal is total body strength. It’s like if you decided to use just dumbbells to increase your horizontal pressing. It would work a bit, but it isn’t exactly the best tool for that particular job.

And just to throw out some more kettlebell clean variations:

The bottoms-up clean has all the explosive requirements of a regular clean, but it’s extra-killer on the arms and grip.

Open palm cleans really force you to focus, and emphasize the feel of a solid “catch” position. Open palm snatches are also great for body awareness (to avoid KB-meets-cranium syndrome) and shoulder stability.

That’s about all I could think of for now, but if you read this far, you deserve a small reward.

EDIT: I just noticed the first post is three months old. Whoops.[/quote]

those bottom up cleans look like a good idea

[quote]Andrew.Cook wrote:
good post. kb like just about everything under the sun as some sort of place in a year long training cycle, but there is a good reason kb’s went out of favor and barbell in about 100 years ago, barbells were better.

Eh, barbells were easier. Better balance, etc. But “better?” That is pretty hard to qualify, isn’t it? I’m no KB monkey. I have a few, use them when the mood strikes, but I’m not convinced that any weight is better than any other. They all have their own challenges, don’t they? I would be tempted to say an axle or a thick barbell is better, but that wouldn’t hold true if you were Olympic lifting. Maybe Dumbbells are better than barbells? Well, for certain things, yes.

Point being that KB’s are just as useful but the learning curve isn’t going to make them a favorite of cardio bunnies anytime soon, and since 95% of the fitness industry is aimed at your average house wife who thinks her thighs need toned, you just aren’t going to see a ton of commercial gyms with KB’s. That being said, the two gyms I train in when I travel to Minneapolis have KB’s (though they keep them locked up with bike chain, lest some moron decide to injure themselves… why not lock up all the weights?)[/quote]

good points you make, i guess one can make an arguement that ANYTHING can have a positive training effect if used at the right intensity at the right time. hell, i subscribe to milo magazine, there are guys that train with bricks, rocks, sandbags, nails, 50 gallon drums, whatever.

but lets be real. barbell weight lifting is an Olympic sport. the vast majority of world class athletes use barbells, dumbell, and (gasp!) machines to improve performance there sports of choice.

i guess you would postulate that if more nfl dbacks and receivers were to use kb they would be running 3.9 sec 40’s? shot putters would be routinely hitting 80 feet?, 600 foot home runs?

kb can be fun, have some uses, but there roll in any serious athletes or bbers training routine does not need to be anything more than minimal(before you flame me, note i said “does not NEED to be” not “SHOULD not be”.

[quote]BetterAthlete wrote:
Honestly, I feel like this exercise is, well, pointless. Its done so unexplosively, and really just looks like the lovechild of a curl and swing buttfucking. Compared to a clean with a barbell it just seems kinda silly. I know if you do 500 reps for time ala Crossfit it can be very physically draining, but in terms of developing any semblance of speed and power, I really don’t see it.

What do you think?[/quote]

Any person who has tried doing high repetition olympic lifting, either barbell or kettlebell, should have respect to the people who are willing to do it. It’s tougher than squats… As far as high rep kettlebell cleans improving your explosive strength, absolute bullshit.

[quote]BetterAthlete wrote:
Honestly, I feel like this exercise is, well, pointless. Its done so unexplosively, and really just looks like the lovechild of a curl and swing buttfucking. Compared to a clean with a barbell it just seems kinda silly. I know if you do 500 reps for time ala Crossfit it can be very physically draining, but in terms of developing any semblance of speed and power, I really don’t see it.

What do you think?[/quote]

Any person who has tried doing high repetition olympic lifting, either barbell or kettlebell, should have respect to the people who are willing to do it. It’s tougher than squats… As far as high rep kettlebell cleans improving your explosive strength, absolute bullshit.

As an AKC certified KB lifting coach [my coach was Valery Fedorenko, the man counting reps in the first viddy] perhaps I can clarify a misperception-- there is an entire sport [Girevoy Sport= GS] built around them in the old USSR nations where the athletes are lifting KBs for ten straight minutes, double jerks and single snatches.
And as many folks do it there as do powerlifting meets here-- it’s a subculture built around a different interpretation of ‘strength’.

And while many if not most of the athletes don’t look like bodybuilders, that is because they aren’t-- they are training to better their totals and not their aesthetics.

Consider the metabolic conditioning necessary to snatch a 32Kg 180 consecutive times with only one hand switch allowed over the ten minute span, or jerking TWO of them for the same?
THAT is where KBs “live”-- KBs work best to train “work capacity”, sort of a middle distance strength capacity requiring the body be able to “turnover”, or recover, after work and then repeat.

Many MMA guys are migrating to include KB Long Cycle Clean & Jerks as the work/ rest conditioning carries over well into their sport, cycling a moment of pull work with a moment of rest with a moment of explosive ‘punching’ as you jerk the bell overhead, followed by a moment of impact as you catch the KB against your upper torso followed by deceleration required as you swing the KB back down through your legs-- rinse and repeat ten times per minute for ten minutes.

Coach Sonnon going over the GS LCC&J

As to improvements in explosiveness, while the KB Clean clearly doesn’t place anywhere near the same demand upon the body’s capacity as a heavy BB clean, we then have to ask how many activities allow a ten minute recovery window before the next [single] explosive demand is made. The trick with KB Long Cycle Clean & Jerks is that that you can generate that force over and over again.

The greatest advantage that KBs offer is in creating a greater work capacity, which can then be carried over into other pursuits.

As a tool for other training modalities? neitehr inferior nor superior to a BB or a DB or a Sandbag or a Clubbell or a Macebell-- and most KB guys won’t pretend otherwise.

This gal could have used chains for a whole other dynamic, but a DB wouldn’t have changed what she’s doing all that much.

When you here guys talking about KBs as a ‘fatburning’ workout, they are generally referring to the notion that most KB training is structured similarly to PHA workouts-- movement to movement to movement, often for time.

weightlifting for time? doesn’t mater what the weight looks like-- that fat will melt off.

As a bodybuilding tool? Provided you follow the same workload protocol as a good BB or DB program it will promote growth.

You won’t get Dorian’s size [am I dating myself?] but more than enough for anyone not interested in carrying competition level mass- Mike Mahler’s programs are a good start .

But then if i was to ever be interested in getting bodybuilding big again I’d probably just stick with heavy Hammer Strength movements and avoid any demand on supporting muscles that even BBs and DBs would impose-- just push and pull heavy loads.

Just a question of letting the job dictate the tools.

Long second post for a newbie but thanks for playing.
Peace.

I am trying not to say anything negative, so here is the positive:

At least that video is popular! And they have more than 4000 clicks from www.kettlebell.hu

I guess the less demanding the exercise (the more popular it is)… aaah… sorry there came the negativity… :frowning: :o :wink:

Edit: After reading androNYC’s message I have to rephrase: A few reps of the exercise shown in the first post does not look hard, but the stuff they do in the kettlebell competitions where they lift for 10 minutes straight seems incredibly hard, so don’t get me wrong, all my respect goes to those guys. :slight_smile:

[quote]stallion wrote:
I guess the less demanding the exercise (the more popular it is)… aaah… sorry there came the negativity… :frowning: :o :wink:
[/quote]

Less demanding? You really need to experience a KB session for yourself so you have perspective.

One reason KBs are appealing to more mainstream people is that people LIKE to feel wiped out after working out. KB accomplish that. For the “average” person that just wants to stay fit, gain some strength, some muscle and REALLY promote fat loss, but isn’t interested in bodybuilding, KB are a fantastic tool.

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
good points you make, i guess one can make an arguement that ANYTHING can have a positive training effect if used at the right intensity at the right time. hell, i subscribe to milo magazine, there are guys that train with bricks, rocks, sandbags, nails, 50 gallon drums, whatever. [/quote]
I train with bricks, rocks, 55 gallon drums etc. Yes, ANYTHING with the right intensity is going to give you a training effect. We just get used to the idea that it has to be barbells and DB’s because your average person can figure out (maybe) what to do with them. Lifting a rock takes a bit more effort, and the balance won’t be dead on. Does that make it worse? Well, it won’t make it conducive to trying to lift enormous weights. A truly world class atlas stone lift would be in the 500’s, but that wouldn’t be an amazing deadlift by any means. Still, I would say a 500lb atlas stone loaded to 48" is on par with the difficulty of a 900lb deadlift. You probably have as many people in the world capable of both feats. So which is “better?” Depends what your sport is. Regardless, being good at both won’t hurt you any.

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
but lets be real. barbell weight lifting is an Olympic sport. the vast majority of world class athletes use barbells, dumbell, and (gasp!) machines to improve performance there sports of choice. [/quote]
The term “world class athletes” is hard to pin down. There are world class kettle bell lifters, world class strongmen, world class ping pong… well, you get my point. Whatever training you do has to support your goals, and barbells are readily available. So if your sport requires some additional strength, what is likely to be available? what is available and what is best may not be the same.

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
i guess you would postulate that if more nfl dbacks and receivers were to use kb they would be running 3.9 sec 40’s? shot putters would be routinely hitting 80 feet?, 600 foot home runs? [/quote]
I wouldn’t make those claims. I doubt kettle bells, as an addition to their training options, would harm their performance, but since you would only be getting general carryover from KB work, and not sport specific movement… it is just another tool in the tool belt. I wouldn’t think to stick to one at the exclusion of everything else.

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
kb can be fun, have some uses, but there roll in any serious athletes or bbers training routine does not need to be anything more than minimal(before you flame me, note i said “does not NEED to be” not “SHOULD not be”. [/quote]
I will agree with this. But the same can be true for DB or BB work. none of it NEEDs to play a major role. There are plenty of ways to skin a cat these days.

I really think we’re starting to try and compare apples to oranges. olympic barbell clean isn’t anything like a KB clean. When using KB cleans you generally use them in high reps at a fast pace not a 1RMAX. If you tried to do this with a barbell olympic clean i would think you didnt deserve to be on this sit or a gym.
APPLES TO ORANGES MY FRIEND! APPLES TO ORANGES!

[quote]blackngrey609 wrote:
I really think we’re starting to try and compare apples to oranges. olympic barbell clean isn’t anything like a KB clean. When using KB cleans you generally use them in high reps at a fast pace not a 1RMAX. If you tried to do this with a barbell olympic clean i would think you didnt deserve to be on this sit or a gym.
APPLES TO ORANGES MY FRIEND! APPLES TO ORANGES![/quote]

I think you are confusing the point. I agree that if you are comparing high rep/light weight work to a heavy single, then you ARE comparing apples to oranges. But compare heavy low rep work with a KB to heavy low rep work with a BB and the difference is negligible. That was my argument to the OP.

Terms like “general use” aren’t meaningful. If general use came into play then I’m guessing BB’s see a lot of time being moved around with weights that aren’t great enough to illicit a training response. Don’t think so? Go hang out at a commercial gym and tell me different. KB’s can be used to provide high intensity strength work. Whether it is common or not isn’t part of the equation.

Andrew.Cook I completely agree with you. Heavy low rep snatches are awesome and intense. I enjoy doing them more than BB snatches to be totally honest. As many of us have already said KB exercise are another excellent tool to change up the boring same old workouts people tend to fall into doing. Its all on how you use them. Which i think we are in agreement on. i wasnt reffering to your comment wen i said apples to oranges. Guess i should have made that more clear.

As for all the waste of air doing sets of ten with the same weight they’ve been using for the last decade i do agree. its all just about getting your hands on the heavy KB’s thats a challenge. there fucking cost a fortune and some guys dont have access to a gym that carries 70 plus pound bells.

Access to heavy KB’s is an issue, and one that will probably keep most people from ever bothering to use them. Couple that with the fact that if gyms have KB’s they are usually of the same weight and usefulness as those pink rubber dumbbells. Oh, and they don’t look like anything familiar. Our culture is very BB/DB-centric, so that will also keep people from playing with it.

To prove this point, my old commercial gym had a great reverse hyper machine. Probably was one of the most useful pieces of equipment in the entire place. Yet, I’m 99% certain I was the only one who knew what it was, and used it. I was so sure of this I even considered affering to take it when I left since it was CLEARLY taking up space that they could fill with a thigh machine, or a curl machine. Never offered, but I wish I had.

Regarding Kettlebell Cleans…

To Quote Clapton “It’s in the way that you use it”
It’s not the exercise that worthless, it’s how and why you perform the exercise that makes all the difference.

With that being said,
Neither Kettlebells or barbells are inherently superior, they are just different tools for different jobs.
IMHO barbell cleans are great for heavy singles, kettlebell cleans for high reps. There is a time and place for both.

Some of the benefits of Double KB cleans over barbell cleans are:

  • The ability to perform high reps safely.
  • The ability to maintain a neutral wrist position = easier & safer on the wrists
  • The ability to perform an accelerated negatives or “overspeed eccentrics” where the Kettlebells are hiked powerfully downward between the knees adding “virtual weight” to the next rep for sets of 5,10 or more.
    Try doing that with a barbell!
  • The ability to perform alternating cleans, left hand then right hand then repeat (torture)

Finally,

  • Moderate to High rep kettlebell work done explosively has helped many people set new PRs in barbell lifts such as the deadlift, including world champion power lifter Donnie Thompson, RKC who added 30lbs of muscle to an already dense 300-something lb frame and set new PRs.

If you still think KB cleans suck…
Consider that if it’s good enough for a world champ to get results, perhaps you just don’t understand the technique. The key is to forcefully HIKE the kettlebells backward on the downswing and EXPLOSIVELY reverse direction by driving your heels through the floor and Catching the kettlebells with TENSE abs and glutes. Try sets of ten with two 24kg kettlebells. If you’re a big guy use two 32kgs.

If you want to know how to incorporate these into routine for increased size seek out an RKC like Donnie Thompson.