Karambit Knife for Self Defense

Bigger Stronger Leaner
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Hi all. I currently carry a spyderco folder as I’m a poor college student who has neither the money nor the time to purchase and become proficient with a concealed carry handgun. If it helps, I have been training in wrestling and judo for about six months. One of my more advanced training partners told me that he carries an Emerson folding karambit when it would be inappropriate or obvious that he was carrying a firearm.

Does the design of the karabit lend itself to self defense, or has its efficacy been overhyped by its popularity? Does carrying such a knife carry legal implications? Does the use of a knife for self defense under similar circumstances as a justified shooting change the legal ramifications of using lethal force?

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Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. I do not know your country of residence, much less your specific A.O. None of the below should be taken as legal advice.

Short answers:

1.) It is supposed to
2.) Maybe
3.) Perhaps

[quote]Bismark wrote:
Hi all. I currently carry a spyderco folder as I’m a poor college student who has neither the money nor the time to purchase and become proficient with a concealed carry handgun. If it helps, I have been training in wrestling and judo for about six months. One of my more advanced training partners told me that he carries an Emerson folding karambit when it would be inappropriate or obvious that he was carrying a firearm. Does the design of the karabit lend itself to self defense, or has its efficacy been overhyped by its popularity?
[/quote]
1.) It is supposed to lend itself to being a weapon, so perhaps. A true karambit profile blade lends itself to being “punched”/stabbed in the reverse grip and to particularly deep slashes in a forward grip. If those techniques are well supported with your skills/methods than yes. On the other hand if you have been trained to use primarily the point of a blade in the forward or reverse grip than not so much.

2.) Perhaps. Some jurisdictions have laws regarding blade length only. Others have special prohibitions against certain designs (e.g. gravity knives, switch blades, balisongs, ect.). If the Emerson is an “assisted” opener than that may or may not be a legal issue depending on your location at any given time. Fixed vs folding knives and open vs concealed also matter. Final note, an individual officer’s interpretation can start a “legal implication” even if law and precedent ultimately support you. The phrase to remember is “You can beat the rap, but you cannot beat the ride.”

Some areas make distinction between “tools” and “edged weapons”. This may be the most important with private entities such as businesses, employers, or your college. In addition to checking federal, state and local laws, please examine your schools policies/guidelines. Personally I think it is far easier to “explain away” carrying a spyderco delica/native/endura type folder that has an obviously used blade as “my knife”/tool vs something designed as a “uni tasker”.

[quote]
Does the use of a knife for self defense under similar circumstances as a justified shooting change the legal ramifications of using lethal force? [/quote]
3.) It probably shouldn’t from a criminal standpoint, however a big part of catching charges/grand jury/trial depends on the mood of the prosecutors. In certain areas an “evil” looking weapon or one traditionally associated with “bad guys” could well lead to a grand jury/charge vs something more mundane. Any and everything can matter in civil/tort litigation. Additionally knife wounds, especially slashes, can play especially gruesome to people not used to looking at such things.

If you are interested in learning defensive knife work I would seek out some instruction and let that sort of guide your “tool” selection. Certain styles/coursework work better for point vs edge driven methods. I would also look into a training/drone version of your spyderco. I know Steve Tarani is a huge advocate for curved blades/the karambit if that is your particular interest.

I do not have much personal experience with karambits. They seem nifty, but I have always gone different routes. I like ring handles in theory, but the few times I have played with them they seemed slower “to hand” than conventional designs. If I were only carrying “a” knife I would want it to be a useful tool in addition to weapon.

Regards,

Robert A

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OP,
Robert gave you an excellent response and you will be wise to consider his advise, especially if you are in the United States, since you are inquiring about a weapon which will either land you in prison or get you sued. My 2cents on your question:

  • The best weapon for self defense is your brain, situation awareness will keep keep you alive, listen to your senses, they know when the shit is going to hit the fan.

  • The best response for any street attack , (if possible), is to RUN away as fast as you can. Cemeteries are full of dead morons who thought they were trained for combat.

  • Your knife question: I am not an expert, but, I do have a good, basic foundation in Kali and Escrima. Like Robert, I dont really train with the “curved or hawk” blades, I prefer a solid fixed blade with a Tanto point, one that will not chip or stick in bone. Fighting daggers, hawks, punch daggers are sexy, but those needle points and thin curved blades will fail under high stress (IMO). The design of the curved blade will limit your attack to slashing, not always the best option because of the space involved in executing the move. In a knife fight, space or distance to your opponent, is the difference between life and death. IMHO, carrying a Karabit style blade is like carrying a specialty weapon, like a derringer in your belt buckle.

  • Think long and hard about carrying a knife for defense, it actually takes more training than learning to properly handle a handgun. Knife fights are very, very, up close and personal and requires a STEEL TRAP COMBAT MINDSET. They are messy and bloody, and, determined enemies dont die easily. You will be cut and, probably bleed out and die. Reread my first and second points.

  • IMHO, you described yourself as having very little time to train, so, you really want to pull a knife? Check your local laws, but, have you considered carrying an ASP Baton? They are a collapsible steel baton, that is easy to carry and deploy. If you are in the US, then you have probably played baseball or some other game requiring a stick. This will be familar to you and learning some offensive and defensive counter moves with a baton, is far easier than learning to fight with a blade. The ASP is far less likely to be viewed in civil court, the same way a hawk blade would be. Plus, it gives you the option of distance from your attacker’s blade. Just something for you to think about.

  • Again, you are a college student, hopefully with a successful future in front of you…KNOW THE LAW…Prisons are full of people with the defense of " I didnt know".

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OP,

If you are checking this thread I would read, re-read, and then internalize idaho’s post.

Don’t let the following distract you from the more important guidance he gave.

RE: Tanto vs dagger points

Blade thickness and shape is certainly a factor in strength. However, I think material is probably just as big an issue. I don’t remember ever reading about an epidemic of dueling style longswords or rapiers breaking off in folks, and those were used in some “spirited” situations.

I have read of issues of the Fairburn Sykes daggers having the point “snap off” or “getting stuck in bone” but I think the brittleness was more an issue with wartime heat treatment. I am really unmoved about the idea of a non serrated blade piercing into bone and getting stuck. Curved blades are easier to free from bone, or wood, than straight when talking about chopping but for piercing shallower is obviously easier, past that less surface is less friction so a narrow dagger should be less “sticky”.

Where I think the tanto has it over others is when the blade encounters something hard other than the intended target. Tanto’s are very forgiving of stabbing or being scraped across metal, be it a car hood in a demo or an AK mag.

RE: Tanto vs Clip or Drop Points

I used to be a huge Tanto proponent, but after carrying them for more than a decade I have come to the realization that a blade with a “belly” (curved portion going towards the point) is more useful for everything but stabbing through things. So if I am only carrying “one knife” it is going to be a clip or drop point.

Regards,

Robert A

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OP,

I think Idaho and Robert have given you some extremely useful advice. If only to piggyback on that, I think you really need to take a good look at the path you are considering travelling down here…

Firstly, you say that you practice both judo and wrestling…I believe those should easily see you through the vast majority of “street fights”, if you will. Provided you are a generally peaceful man who avoids fights in public as a general rule, of course…

Which leads to a question (or two). Be honest with yourself when I ask these:

Do you have it in you to kill someone? Have you given that question sufficient thought, all the way through to its logical conclusion? If you have, and the answer is “yes, to defend my own life or that of another” then I commend you!!! And I now advise you to save your money, pinch your pennies, and get a concealed handgun license. Then, MAKE the time to learn how to properly use a handgun in self-defense. Then pray that you will never have to. Because if you have decided that you CAN kill someone, if necessary, then why are you handicapping yourself by carrying a knife?

As Idaho pointed out, killing another person with a knife IS NOT easy. It is no small thing to close with your enemy to touch distance, and then carve up his vital organs until enough of him bleeds out onto the pavement to cause his body to shut down. People don’t just drop like they do in the movies. And frankly, it takes a LOT more commitment than killing someone with a handgun.

Further, a karambit is designed to do nothing but cause damage and kill…if you DID have to use it for its intended purpose, and you got a prosecutor with a bug up his ass, he could easily present it as a specialized weapon that required specialized training to use…and then make it sound like you were basically walking around WANTING to kill somebody.

HOWEVER…let’s assume for the sake of argument that you have given all of this ample consideration.

The answer to your question regarding using a karambit in circumstances where a gun could be used is GENERALLY going to be “yes”. IF you are justified in the use of deadly force in your particular jurisdiction, and under the specific circumstances, then your weapon of choice matters very little. So, the best advice I can give you is KNOW THE LAW in your jurisdiction regarding self defense. Tread carefully, do everything you can to avoid confrontations that lead to deadly force encounters, and realize that just because the law says you CAN do something doesn’t mean you SHOULD do it.

Cos I’d be willing to bet there are lots of guys in prison right now who wish they had spared their attacker’s life. Juries are unpredictable, and don’t always see things the way you do. I’d rather be free than “right”.

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Great responses so far, not much to add in regards to generic edged weapons advice.

Regarding Karambits though, I also agree that it’s not a great knife for self defense for the following reasons:

  1. while the design certainly looks badass, in actuality it makes for a poor stabbing weapon (which statistically is more likely to cause a fatal wound than a slash), decreases the range of the weapon, and though it is an effective slashing/cutting tool, curved blades actually make just as good (if not better) slashing/cutting tools than recurved blades.

  2. while some people argue that fixed blades are better suited for combat than folders (and there is some merit to that as it eliminates operator error in opening the weapon/cuts down on deployment time, and eliminates the possibility of the locking mechanism failing and the blade accidentally closing while being used), but for civilian usage you always need to take into consideration the perceived intent of carrying the weapon. It’s going to be much harder to convince the average jury member that you are carrying a fixed blade “fighting” knife like a Karambit for a purpose other than that you were looking for an excuse to kill/maim someone with it than it is going to be with a folder (unless the folder is some sort of exotic “death dealer” type of knife).

That’s not to say that any blade (Karambit or otherwise) in the hands of someone who knows how to use it isn’t a formidable weapon that is absolutely capable of seriously maiming or killing a human being. But like someone said above, real blade combat is not like in the movies, often times under adrenaline stress people report never realizing that they had been stabbed or cut until after the fact. I even know of cases where people had been stabbed and didn’t even start bleeding until their adrenaline dump wore off and then they started gushing blood. So don’t listen to someone when they tell you that a couple of well placed slashes is going to instantly decide a real life knife fight to the death. If you are going to kill someone via Hypovolemic Shock (due to loss of too much blood), then realize that it’s going to take a little while and during that time the other person is still capable to fighting back and even killing you. Unpleasant to think about no doubt, but an important point when discussing edged weapon combat.

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Good posts. In most places you are safer legally to shoot someone than to stab them in self defense.

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[quote]Bismark wrote:
Hi all. I currently carry a spyderco folder as I’m a poor college student who has neither the money nor the time to purchase and become proficient with a concealed carry handgun. If it helps, I have been training in wrestling and judo for about six months. One of my more advanced training partners told me that he carries an Emerson folding karambit when it would be inappropriate or obvious that he was carrying a firearm.

Does the design of the karabit lend itself to self defense, or has its efficacy been overhyped by its popularity? Does carrying such a knife carry legal implications? Does the use of a knife for self defense under similar circumstances as a justified shooting change the legal ramifications of using lethal force? [/quote]

a couple guys i work with carry that knife… it’s pretty slick, but it’s like $300.

the reason they carry it is because of issues with handgun retention, and it’s easy to deploy from a safe position. we are also unable to carry fixed knives per dept policy, so that’s another consideration…

honestly, i think most people can find a cheaper replacement…

personally, i carry a pocketknife i can deploy off-hand for handgun retention, and after i decided i like it, bought a couple more. i carry it every day, so i remain proficient with it.

Spyderco makes good knives, IMO.

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good legal advice here, by the way!

a buddy of mine got jammed up for carrying an assisted opening knife, and i’d suggest that anyone that’s not certain needs to find out what the law is on knives in their state/province. also, a CCW will usually allow you to carry pretty much any knife (and Taser, as well), so it’s always a good idea to pursue that if one intends on carry self defense tools…