Justin Gatlin vs Usain Bolt

Off Topic
41

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:
A related topic:

When does the law of diminishing returns kick in for a sprinter when training for maximal strength in the squat?

How strong is strong enough?

Athletes can get too focused on strength increases in the weight room when increasing their strength any further may require more effort than it’s worth. The return they will see on the field from increasing their squat from, say, 500 to 550 may or may not be worth the time and effort (not to mention the risk of injury) it takes to get there. This is dependent on multiple factors, obviously, but I find it an interesting topic to think about.

Anyone?[/quote]

This article answers the same question, suggesting that it is around 2x bodyweight for sprinters. If the link doesn’t post correctly, look up “how strong is strong enough” on elite fts.

http://articles.elitefts.com/training-articles/sports-training/how-strong-is-strong-enough-training-considerations-for-track-and-field-athletes/

42

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:
A related topic:

When does the law of diminishing returns kick in for a sprinter when training for maximal strength in the squat?

Anyone?[/quote]

The minute he starts training for maximal strength in squats.

43

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:
A related topic:

When does the law of diminishing returns kick in for a sprinter when training for maximal strength in the squat?

Anyone?[/quote]

The minute he starts training for maximal strength in squats.[/quote]

I disagree. For the first two years of my track and field training, I had done 0 squats. After I gave up on track and field and focused on powerlifting, my squat increased by about 100 pounds, while my BW remained the same. Guess what, my 60 yard sprint got 0.4 seconds faster. I believe that something like 2,5x BW is more than enough.

44

[quote]Antonio. B wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]Antonio. B wrote:
Heavy squatting as well as heavy lifting in general would kill them as sprinters, especially if they did it on regular basis.[/quote]

This is not true.

Both Johnson and Christie were well known to squat extremely heavy weights regularly to name just two.

I doubt they all do this, but the majority probably do.

Bolt is tall and has quite severe scoliosis so I doubt he back squats heavy if at all.

OP - I am sure Gatlin would like to swap his gym numbers with Bolt’s gold medals so doubt anyone cares who is better in the gym, including themselves.[/quote]

The training of elite athletes has always been a big interest of internet wannabes… so, no wonder some of them created myths about it, and general public took them for granted… At one stage I have trained in a track and field team, and I know how the sprinters train and what is important in their training… Heavy weights and benefits from them are quite a bit over exaggerated on this site, and that is quite normal, because the site itself is mostly dedicated for weight training
[/quote]

Strength training definitely helps.

45

To answer the question, Gatlin is no doubt the stronger of the two. Bolt is piss weak, I’d be surprised if he benched more than 225.
As for Gatlins numbers, he did an NFL combine where he benched 225 13 times I think? So surely his max is at least 300. I’d put his squat at around 400. These modern sprinters are reasonably strong, however you can’t compare them to say a pro NFL player. Ben Johnson is a freak, I think people automatically associate sprinters strength levels with Ben Johnson, the vast majority of sprinters don’t come close to his strength levels.

Other numbers on lifting maxes that I found off the net (take these with a grain of salt):
Maurice Greene: squat 400 x 3
Ben Johnson: 600x6
Tyson Gay: 225 x ?
Bruny surin:270 x 5
Valery Borzov: worked with weights around the 225 mark. No idea of actual max.

EDIT: Asafa powell deadlifts around 400 & benches 290, he doesn’t back squat according to his coach, front squats only.

46

[quote]SLAINGE wrote:
typical periodisation template

Anatomical Adaptation
Hypertrophy
Strength
Conversion (in this instance SPEED, involve plyometrics etc.)
Competition

skip to 3 minute mark for 5 plates each side!!! dont care if the man took drugs thats not the point of this post

Power equals strength times speed, strength being the ‘foundation’ of all fitness qualities. Sooo strength is an essential part of speed and increasing strength should lead to increases in speed if dictated by the convesion phase…[/quote]

You know many people in the running world assert his strength and size have been a major factor in him not being more successful… and he isn’t a top 10 world sprinter or anywhere close (Harry that is).

The fact that Ben Johnson took drugs is very relevant because he wouldn’t have been able to successfully squat 5 plates and break sprinting world records without them!!!

47

[quote]niksamaras wrote:

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:
A related topic:

When does the law of diminishing returns kick in for a sprinter when training for maximal strength in the squat?

Anyone?[/quote]

The minute he starts training for maximal strength in squats.[/quote]

I disagree. For the first two years of my track and field training, I had done 0 squats. After I gave up on track and field and focused on powerlifting, my squat increased by about 100 pounds, while my BW remained the same. Guess what, my 60 yard sprint got 0.4 seconds faster. I believe that something like 2,5x BW is more than enough. [/quote]

If you were able to gain 100lb with no change in bodyweight on one lift, when you were track and field training you must have been pretty out of shape!

48

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]Antonio. B wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]Antonio. B wrote:
Heavy squatting as well as heavy lifting in general would kill them as sprinters, especially if they did it on regular basis.[/quote]

This is not true.

Both Johnson and Christie were well known to squat extremely heavy weights regularly to name just two.

I doubt they all do this, but the majority probably do.

Bolt is tall and has quite severe scoliosis so I doubt he back squats heavy if at all.

OP - I am sure Gatlin would like to swap his gym numbers with Bolt’s gold medals so doubt anyone cares who is better in the gym, including themselves.[/quote]

The training of elite athletes has always been a big interest of internet wannabes… so, no wonder some of them created myths about it, and general public took them for granted… At one stage I have trained in a track and field team, and I know how the sprinters train and what is important in their training… Heavy weights and benefits from them are quite a bit over exaggerated on this site, and that is quite normal, because the site itself is mostly dedicated for weight training
[/quote]

Strength training definitely helps.[/quote]
Intresting read

49

[quote]Trocchi wrote:

[quote]SLAINGE wrote:
typical periodisation template

Anatomical Adaptation
Hypertrophy
Strength
Conversion (in this instance SPEED, involve plyometrics etc.)
Competition

skip to 3 minute mark for 5 plates each side!!! dont care if the man took drugs thats not the point of this post

Power equals strength times speed, strength being the ‘foundation’ of all fitness qualities. Sooo strength is an essential part of speed and increasing strength should lead to increases in speed if dictated by the convesion phase…[/quote]

You know many people in the running world assert his strength and size have been a major factor in him not being more successful… and he isn’t a top 10 world sprinter or anywhere close (Harry that is).

The fact that Ben Johnson took drugs is very relevant because he wouldn’t have been able to successfully squat 5 plates and break sprinting world records without them!!!
[/quote]

Every top 10 sprinter is taking drugs. Ben Johnson is no different than any other. He just got caught.

50

[quote]Trocchi wrote:

[quote]SLAINGE wrote:
typical periodisation template

Anatomical Adaptation
Hypertrophy
Strength
Conversion (in this instance SPEED, involve plyometrics etc.)
Competition

skip to 3 minute mark for 5 plates each side!!! dont care if the man took drugs thats not the point of this post

Power equals strength times speed, strength being the ‘foundation’ of all fitness qualities. Sooo strength is an essential part of speed and increasing strength should lead to increases in speed if dictated by the convesion phase…[/quote]

You know many people in the running world assert his strength and size have been a major factor in him not being more successful… and he isn’t a top 10 world sprinter or anywhere close (Harry that is).

The fact that Ben Johnson took drugs is very relevant because he wouldn’t have been able to successfully squat 5 plates and break sprinting world records without them!!!
[/quote]

Sorry mate but what has top 10 got to do with it? The discussion has focused on whether elite sprinters use heavy weights or not’ hence the vid of Harry. In relation to Ben Johnson… yeh he took drugs but how much do you think drugs contributed to his strength? He is undoubtedly a strong individual and that was the point, end of!

I also posted this… generalising is a great dicussion tool but lets not forget specificity of training coupled with individual differences PLUS their coaches training philosphy which equals a shit load of variance when discussing how sprinters train’ meh…

51

[quote]Trocchi wrote:
You know many people in the running world assert his strength and size have been a major factor in him not being more successful… and he isn’t a top 10 world sprinter or anywhere close (Harry that is).

The fact that Ben Johnson took drugs is very relevant because he wouldn’t have been able to successfully squat 5 plates and break sprinting world records without them!!!
[/quote]

Harry A-A is an elite level sprinter he is a former youth world champ at 100 and 200, he isn’t some guy from the local gym.

The point is anyway, that MOST elite level sprinters squat heavy and lift heavy weights in their training - it is not about finding video evidence from every sprinter in history to prove this.

Regarding drugs, do you really think someone like Johnson isn’t naturally extremely strong? It’s not like you could take some guy off the street give him some AAS and watch his break records is it.

Furthermore, I don’t really get your point on drugs - they are an integral part of sprinting and have been for 30 years.

52

[quote]Antonio. B wrote:
Heavy squatting as well as heavy lifting in general would kill them as sprinters, especially if they did it on regular basis. As for lifting weights they mostly do with light weights 25 - 40 % of their personal best, for explosive power, they do lots of plyometrics too. However, I wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t even know their personal best in certain lifts.

And such a competition who lifts more weight is completely irrelevant, because they aren’t powerlifters not even close… they are runners… they have to be very lean, explosive, fast… and during competitions they sprint with they own body weight, they don’t compete sprinting with a 150 lbs bag on their sholders. [/quote]

It really depends on what type of sprinter u are. Someone like Gatlin might squat more, which probably means that he is more explosive, which means he will have a better start, and will be faster in the first 30 meters. But the first 30 meters aren’t the whole 100 meter race… top speed comes into play, and the strongest and the most explosive sprinters don’t always have top speed. Look at someone like Bolt or Carl Lewis. They are more or less “springy” sprinters that rely more on reactive ability, technique, and stride length. But this does not mean that they shouldn’t squat. I agree with the poster above that if Usaine never squatted, and starts to squat now, he will break his own PR. It might not have as much effect on his top end speed, but if he can become more explosive coming off the blocks or the first half of the race, and is still able to hold on to his top speed, he might just be a faster 100 meter dash sprinter.

There’s a reason why all the Olympic sprinters have such high verticals and can probably sprint just as fast as sprinters coming off the blocks up to 30 yards. More squat = more strength… more strength means potentially, more power.

53

Most people vastly overestimate the value of pursuing “maximum strength” as defined as one’s 1RM lift. Strength improvements that come about as a result of skill improvements have no carryover to sprinting.

54

[quote]digitalairair wrote:

[quote]Antonio. B wrote:
Heavy squatting as well as heavy lifting in general would kill them as sprinters, especially if they did it on regular basis. As for lifting weights they mostly do with light weights 25 - 40 % of their personal best, for explosive power, they do lots of plyometrics too. However, I wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t even know their personal best in certain lifts.

And such a competition who lifts more weight is completely irrelevant, because they aren’t powerlifters not even close… they are runners… they have to be very lean, explosive, fast… and during competitions they sprint with they own body weight, they don’t compete sprinting with a 150 lbs bag on their sholders. [/quote]

It really depends on what type of sprinter u are. Someone like Gatlin might squat more, which probably means that he is more explosive, which means he will have a better start, and will be faster in the first 30 meters. But the first 30 meters aren’t the whole 100 meter race… top speed comes into play, and the strongest and the most explosive sprinters don’t always have top speed. Look at someone like Bolt or Carl Lewis. They are more or less “springy” sprinters that rely more on reactive ability, technique, and stride length. But this does not mean that they shouldn’t squat. I agree with the poster above that if Usaine never squatted, and starts to squat now, he will break his own PR. It might not have as much effect on his top end speed, but if he can become more explosive coming off the blocks or the first half of the race, and is still able to hold on to his top speed, he might just be a faster 100 meter dash sprinter.

There’s a reason why all the Olympic sprinters have such high verticals and can probably sprint just as fast as sprinters coming off the blocks up to 30 yards. More squat = more strength… more strength means potentially, more power. [/quote]

surprisingly, top speed is rather irrelevant at the elite level. data suggests sprinters (humans?) have plateaued their maximal velocity (for now?).

what is more relevant is maintaining that speed… speed endurance. bolt is very good at this, which is why it appears that he has a faster top speed, which I assure you he does not.

55

[quote]swhole milk wrote:

[quote]digitalairair wrote:

[quote]Antonio. B wrote:
Heavy squatting as well as heavy lifting in general would kill them as sprinters, especially if they did it on regular basis. As for lifting weights they mostly do with light weights 25 - 40 % of their personal best, for explosive power, they do lots of plyometrics too. However, I wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t even know their personal best in certain lifts.

And such a competition who lifts more weight is completely irrelevant, because they aren’t powerlifters not even close… they are runners… they have to be very lean, explosive, fast… and during competitions they sprint with they own body weight, they don’t compete sprinting with a 150 lbs bag on their sholders. [/quote]

It really depends on what type of sprinter u are. Someone like Gatlin might squat more, which probably means that he is more explosive, which means he will have a better start, and will be faster in the first 30 meters. But the first 30 meters aren’t the whole 100 meter race… top speed comes into play, and the strongest and the most explosive sprinters don’t always have top speed. Look at someone like Bolt or Carl Lewis. They are more or less “springy” sprinters that rely more on reactive ability, technique, and stride length. But this does not mean that they shouldn’t squat. I agree with the poster above that if Usaine never squatted, and starts to squat now, he will break his own PR. It might not have as much effect on his top end speed, but if he can become more explosive coming off the blocks or the first half of the race, and is still able to hold on to his top speed, he might just be a faster 100 meter dash sprinter.

There’s a reason why all the Olympic sprinters have such high verticals and can probably sprint just as fast as sprinters coming off the blocks up to 30 yards. More squat = more strength… more strength means potentially, more power. [/quote]

surprisingly, top speed is rather irrelevant at the elite level. data suggests sprinters (humans?) have plateaued their maximal velocity (for now?).

what is more relevant is maintaining that speed… speed endurance. bolt is very good at this, which is why it appears that he has a faster top speed, which I assure you he does not.[/quote]

sorta disagree, he has to have faster top speed and speed endurance in order to be that good, just from watching the 100m races at least. Having run 100m and 200m, it is not that hard to maintain top speed in 100m once you reach it for a well trained sprinter, but speed endurance comes more into play in the 200m.

Also how is top speed irrelevant at the elite level? That’s like the most important thing IMO.

56

[quote]krillin wrote:

[quote]swhole milk wrote:

[quote]digitalairair wrote:

[quote]Antonio. B wrote:
Heavy squatting as well as heavy lifting in general would kill them as sprinters, especially if they did it on regular basis. As for lifting weights they mostly do with light weights 25 - 40 % of their personal best, for explosive power, they do lots of plyometrics too. However, I wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t even know their personal best in certain lifts.

And such a competition who lifts more weight is completely irrelevant, because they aren’t powerlifters not even close… they are runners… they have to be very lean, explosive, fast… and during competitions they sprint with they own body weight, they don’t compete sprinting with a 150 lbs bag on their sholders. [/quote]

It really depends on what type of sprinter u are. Someone like Gatlin might squat more, which probably means that he is more explosive, which means he will have a better start, and will be faster in the first 30 meters. But the first 30 meters aren’t the whole 100 meter race… top speed comes into play, and the strongest and the most explosive sprinters don’t always have top speed. Look at someone like Bolt or Carl Lewis. They are more or less “springy” sprinters that rely more on reactive ability, technique, and stride length. But this does not mean that they shouldn’t squat. I agree with the poster above that if Usaine never squatted, and starts to squat now, he will break his own PR. It might not have as much effect on his top end speed, but if he can become more explosive coming off the blocks or the first half of the race, and is still able to hold on to his top speed, he might just be a faster 100 meter dash sprinter.

There’s a reason why all the Olympic sprinters have such high verticals and can probably sprint just as fast as sprinters coming off the blocks up to 30 yards. More squat = more strength… more strength means potentially, more power. [/quote]

surprisingly, top speed is rather irrelevant at the elite level. data suggests sprinters (humans?) have plateaued their maximal velocity (for now?).

what is more relevant is maintaining that speed… speed endurance. bolt is very good at this, which is why it appears that he has a faster top speed, which I assure you he does not.[/quote]

sorta disagree, he has to have faster top speed and speed endurance in order to be that good, just from watching the 100m races at least. Having run 100m and 200m, it is not that hard to maintain top speed in 100m once you reach it for a well trained sprinter, but speed endurance comes more into play in the 200m.

Also how is top speed irrelevant at the elite level? That’s like the most important thing IMO.
[/quote]

Honestly, I’ve heard that before, but I read a paper on the illusion of top speed in elite 100m races and since then I did not reconsider.

You have caused me to reconsider. I went to the data myself this time. Thank you for the propulsion.

Here is my new conclusion:

Top speed and maintenance of that speed are of “equal importance” because they form a rudimentary equation of 100m performance (time); thus, the fluctuation and/or individual differences in these values can counteract one another.

For instance, I am assuming the following:

  1. Reaction times are equivalent
  2. All competitors’ velocity will peak in the 60-80m range
  3. All competitors will slow down nearly immediately after peaking

Given these premises, there are multiple ways to achieve the same performance:
a) Reach a higher top speed and regress faster
b) Reach a more “average” top speed and better maintain it

Thus, there can be a variety of performance styles. Usain Bolt is dominant because he can be the fastest AND the best at mitigating speed fall.

Top speed = 26 mph +/- 1.5 mph for most elite sprinters. Usain Bolt set the high in 2009 @ 27.79, which he has not really gotten close to since. Close being relative, naturally…

Also, you are wrong, it is IMPOSSIBLE to maintain true top speed in the 100m.

Like I said, the general trend is this:
a) accelerate until the 60m mark
b) hit a top speed in the 60-80m section
c) decelerate

Thus, the factors are:
a) quality of acceleration
b) top speed, length of maintenance
c) rate and impact of deterioration

IF our subjects accelerate equally and deteriorate equally, then top speed simply shifts the function, while maintaining its basic shape. In that sense, top speed is most important. However, these assumptions are not the case. Usain Bolt is not the fastest in every race he wins. An odd statement, I know. This is also true: Usain Bolt can be the fastest in a race he does not win.

I think he dominated because he had an excellent combination of top speed and speed endurance. It is arguable that Tyson Gay was better at accelerating and maintaining his speed, but that it was insufficient to win in that case because 98% of Bolt’s top speed was greater than 98% of Gay’s top speed (in the 2009 race).

While that may sound like total support of “top speed is king”, it isn’t. Just because Bolt is currently king doesn’t mean it is inconceivable that he could be beaten by someone with a lower top speed but a lesser rate of decay… Hell, it has happened already! Lol!

57

Interesting stuff, when running the 100m if you happen to reach true top speed at around the 60m mark and then slightly regress it is almost imperceptible. I guess perceived top speed (the speed you average on the last 40-50m of the 100m race, which is where Bolt kicks butt) and true top speed are different, and I was more thinking in terms of the first. When you explain the studies in more detail it sorta makes sense.