Just a Fun Discussion

Hello fellow combateers. I just decided to write up an article like thing out of boredom. Here it is, argue with me:

The Best Pound-For-Pound Fighter in MMA

I get this question asked to me so often it inspired me to bore you all with an article explain my answer. Of course this sparks a lot of discussion because it is purely a mythical title. The truth is, Georges St. Pierre is much higher on this list than, say, Cheick Kongo, but Kongo would probably put GSP in the hospital because he’d enjoy a near 100 lb advantage. However, this doesn’t mean that I don’t enjoy a fun and pointless discussion myself from time to time. So, I decided to put my thoughts down on paper about the title only given in Alice’s Wonderland, the best pound-for-pound fighter in the world. A few things:

1)I’m going to include only mixed martial artists in this discussion. Nothing against boxing, but the sports are just too different to compare.

2)I’m going to use a few criteria to make my list:

*What have you done lately?-I’m going to weight a fighter’s performance over the last three years a bit more. How did I come up with three years? Just picked it. Who you have fought and how you did recently is very important. For example, Chuck Liddell will not find himself on this list, even though he has had a brilliant career, because he has struggled lately. But that doesn’t mean that past performance shouldn’t count. Just because you have been good for the last six months doesn’t mean you should top this list either. So I picked three years for the happy medium.

*Quality opponents-Most people have a feel for this being an obvious criteria, but few people seem to actually use it. A good example is the Brock Lesnar argument. Now, you will not hear me say I think a healthy Brock Lesnar is a walk-over. In fact, he is a beast to be sure. He is a very high level wrestler, and as an athlete is extremely hard to deal with. But, his record is 4-1. He has beaten a 40-something true light-heavyweight in Randy Couture, some guy named Min Soo Kim who has a record of 6-7, a tough journeyman in Heath Herring, and Frank Mir whom he had lost to, and whom he outweighed by at least 40 lbs. There is just no way to look at that list and say that Brock Lesnar compares to other candidates in this B.S. argument. In a list of most potential, he is up there, but not yet in accomplishment.

*Dominance-This one is quite subjective of course, but has to be in here. If a guy is fighting quality opponents and whipping them senseless, that has to count for more than barely beating a similar quality guy. This criteria, though, shows the weakness of this entire argument. Who’s to say that Fedor KO’ing Arlovski or Rogers is more impressive than GSP winning all 5 rounds against Thiago Alves? Well, I’m to say it, that’s who! At any rate, this is to remind you that this list is pure opinion. We are obviously splitting hairs here, but you just have to create something to differentiate these great fighters since it can’t be settled in the cage.

Here are my candidates in no particular order yet:
1)GSP
2)Anderson Silva
3)Fedor Emelianenko
4)Lyoto Machida
5)BJ Penn

We’ll take them one at a time. (Note that all records are taken from mixedmartialarts.com)

BJ Penn
Record:14-5-1
Record in last 3 years:4-3
Opponents combined records:299-90-8 (75.3% winning percentage)

The case for BJ Penn rests on the fact he has fought a huge number of quality opponents and his dominance of the 155 lb division. He holds wins over Matt Hughes (UFC Hall of Fame), Kenny Florian, Sean Sherk, Joe Stevenson, Takanori Gomi, and Renzo Gracie among others. Even though he lost to the then heavyweight Lyoto Machida, he took him to a decision, which is quite an accomplishment for a natural 155 lb’er. Furthermore, he has dominated his last three opponents in his division, finishing them all. However, in a way, BJ’s case is the easiest one to examine. He has fought outside his weight class a lot, and without much success. Even though he did hold the 170 lb belt, he is 0-3 in his last three fights at that weight-class including two losses (albeit one very close) to another on this list, GSP. He has been dominate in his UFC run in the lightweight division, but he pedestrian record in the last three years places him in 5th place.

Lyoto Machida
Record:16-0-0
Record in last 3 years:10-0
Opponents combined records:181-104-8 (61.7% winning percentage)

Lyoto Machida is a hard guy to place on this list. He has been spectacular of late. His record over the last three years is excellent. His opponent’s winning percentage is not great, but over this last three fights his victim’s have a 46-6-1 record. Two of those guys were undefeated when Machida dispatched them easily (Rashad Evans and Thiago Silva). And even though the Shogun fight was controversial, he still officially got a win and certainly did more than just hold his own against a truly great and accomplished fighter. He also excels in the dominance catagory. So much so, in fact, that according to the UFC’s somewhat shaky statistics on strikes, he hadn’t been his with a power shot since his fight with BJ Penn (11 fights and over 4 years ago) before the Shogun fight. Also, that winning percentage is lowered significantly by the Vernon White fight (he has 34 of those losses himself). So this placement is less about how little I think of Machida than it is how much I think of the other guys on my list. He just needs to keep winning against the high level opponents he’s faced in his last three fights and he’ll move right up.

Georges St. Pierre
Record:19-2
Record in last 3 years:8-1
Opponents Combined Records:332-111-5 (74.1% winning percentage)

Despite putting unnecessary letters in his first name, GSP has been spectacular of late. Because of his startling physical gifts people fail to realize GSP’s great work ethic, relentless pursuit of knowledge to perfection, and great mind for the game. The fact is, GSP was considered a bit of a Prodigy himself when he got into mma. His first fight was against Ivan Menjivar, who was 4-0 when he fought GSP. Ivan would go on to win 13 of his first 15 fights. GSP ended his night in round 1. GSP gets many points in the dominance catagory as well. He has fought only number one contender level guys over his last 6 fights, but he has not lost even a single round. In fact, hardly any of those rounds have been close. He has also evolved into the best wrestler in mma. Amazingly, GSP doesn’t have a wrestling background, yet there are whispers that he may join the Canadian Olympic team in the 2012 games (should they happen before the Mayan apocalypse). The scouting report on GSP says that he may have a weak chin, can lose focus and be mentally beaten, and hesitates to trade punches. The truth is, GSP got caught by a big shot against Matt Serra. He probably did lose focus, as did Ali against Spinks and Tyson against Douglas. That doesn’t make them any less great, however. GSP has razor sharp focus. He doesn’t trade punches because his wrestling and top game are so good he doesn’t have to. GSP’s biggest problem is his sudden lack of challengers. Standing around the water-cooler two years ago, you might have said that the 170 lb division was the UFC’s deepest and most talented. Now it seems like that is a forgotten memory. Of course, the division is no less talented, but GSP won all 5 rounds against Thiago Alves, all 5 rounds against Jon Fitch, and all 3 rounds against Josh Koscheck. The fact that those 3 are considered to be the best 170 lb’ers not named “Rush”, and GSP has won all 13 rounds he has fought against them, makes it seems like there is no one left. Also in this hair-splitting argument, some hairs are bound to be split and with GSP that hair is the finishing one. Even though he has been ultra-dominant, he did fail to finish Koscheck, Alves, and Fitch (though he did finish the almost unfinishable (word?) BJ Penn). Like Lyoto Machida, all GSP needs to do is keep winning and finishing some more guys (and maybe have a showdown with Anderson Silva) to keep climbing these rankings.

Anderson Silva
Record:25-4
Record in last 3 years:11-1
Opponents combined records:465-211-14 (67.4% winning percentage)

Searching for a weakness in Anderson Silva’s game is like trying to find good ideas at the Republican National Convention. As far as I can tell, his only real weakness is that he is so good that he sometimes gets bored. “The Spider”, who unlike Kendall “Da Spyder” Grove, can at least spell his nickname and passes the eyeball test with flying colors. He seems to put little effort into dismantling top level competition. Forrest Griffin is too big and tough, wrong answer. Dan Henderson has the perfect game to tie him up, wrong answer. Whether it be Nate Marquardt’s toughness and experience, or Rich Franklin’s well-rounded game, Silva has whipped them all with seeming ease. Sure, he wasn’t explosive or spectacular against Patrick Cote or Thales Leites, but as I said with GSP’s slip up against Serra, even the great ones have off days. Furthermore, he still won those fights in blowout fashion. Perhaps that’s the biggest testament to his greatness; when he fights “poorly” he still dominates the fight to the point of boring the audience. Also, like BJ Penn, we can make a more realistic argument for his pound-for-pound greatness because he has fought outside his weight class. Anderson is now 2-0 at light heavyweight including a win over a former champion in Forrest Griffin. Like GSP, however, Anderson is somewhat hamstrung by a lack of credible foes for the future. The middleweight division has long been a weak spot for the UFC, and Anderson has already beaten many of the top guys. Nate Marquardt fell quickly. Dan Henderson was choked in round 2. Rich Franklin needed plastic surgery…twice. Although I am a huge fan, it would be foolish to pin hopes on an aging Wanderlei Silva to be the one to knock Anderson off the mountain. Vitor Belfort is an intriguing challenge to be sure. He is a gifted as Anderson. He is a talent similar to BJ Penn, with tons of experience to boot. But his Jekyl and Hyde mentality, and his penchant for fatiguing and appearing to lose will in a fight, probably signal defeat. The truth for Anderson in my made-up list is that he, like all the others, are really just waiting for number 1 to lose.

Fedor Emelianenko
Record:31-1
Record in last 3 years:7-0
Last loss:12/22/2000
Opponents combined records:428-241-18 (62.3% winning percentage)

The last time Fedor lost, Bill Clinton was still President. I know I said that the last three years matter most, but that is a hard thing to argue against. The knock against Fedor is that he hasn’t fought anyone lately, and that his competition throughout his career has been subpar. There is some truth to that. His opponent’s winning percentage won’t knock you over. But you can only beat who’s put in front of you, and Fedor has. Tim Sylvia isn’t a great fighter, but he is a former champion. Done in about 30 seconds against Fedor. Andre Arlovski was a champion too, and a feared heavyweight in the UFC for a long time, done in round 1 after getting hit with one shot. In fact, Fedor is so great that mearly getting hit at all excites his critics to astronomical levels. Brett Rogers landed one good shot and some knees against the cage and people chimed in that “he almost had him.” Arlovski landed some nice jabs and a good front kick, people jumped up and down that Fedor was lucky with his one punch. Well, he’s been lucky 31 out of 32 times…Vegas has probably already banned him. In addition, it’s how Fedor wins that has always impressed me. He really can beat anyone, anywhere he wants. He was able to beat Minotauro Nogueira twice despite spending significant time on the ground with him. He was also able to beat Ricardo Arona in that manner. Brett Rogers is an unknown commodity in some respects, but he was 10-0 with 10 KO’s and Fedor beat him standing. Fedor fought mostly a kickboxing match with a prime Mirko Crocop and came out on top. His well roundedness and dominance simply can’t be argued. The real knock against him is that he isn’t in the UFC. Because of that, he has fought opponents that aren’t particularly well known to Americans. That is why people don’t respect his record like they should. Fedor is also another guy who we can make some realistic pound-for-pound guesses about. Although he is a heavyweight, he is quite a smallish one. He usually fights near 230 lbs, which has put him at a weight disadvantage of 20-30 lbs in many fights, and as much as 100 lbs or more in fights against resident giants like Hong Man Choi. Against Brett Rogers, Fedor was at least 30 lbs smaller than his opponent, but still he won in relatively easy fashion. That is one thing that we shouldn’t quickly overlook. When Anderson Silva fights up to 205, he really isn’t at much, if any, of a weight disadvantage. He is simply fighting up more than normal, but he carries the weight well. Fedor is at an actual weight disadvantage in almost every fight, and yet he comes through. If/when he loses, it’ll still surprise me, no matter who beats him. But for now, Fedor belongs on top until someone knocks him off the mountain.

I’m glad you brought this new and exciting topic up.

damn you got a lot of time on your hands, but you did keep me interested enough to read it all. “Here it is, argue with me” lol.

Pound for pound means if they were all the same weight who would win. This is stupid because certain fighters use their size ala Brock Lesnar. Now if everyone was at the same weight who would win? Who the fuck knows and cares. Would Anderson be able to stuff GSP’s takedowns?

Would BJ Penn gas (he pretty much only gasses at welterweight) Would GSP be able to muscle Penn around? Too many questions with no answers. What you are talking about is not pound for pound best, imo pound for pound has evolved into a pointless stupid argument.

Ah, I just like to write sometimes, that’s all. If the topic bores you, simply don’t read it.

drewh, I agree with you and said as much in the article. Hence the part about Cheick Kongo beating GSP despite GSP being much higher on this list than Kongo.

[quote]danew wrote:
Ah, I just like to write sometimes, that’s all. If the topic bores you, simply don’t read it.

drewh, I agree with you and said as much in the article. Hence the part about Cheick Kongo beating GSP despite GSP being much higher on this list than Kongo.[/quote]

not to be all nitpicking and shit, but given kongo’s takedown defense and GSP’s takedowns, I think GSP would win that fight.

although i disagree with you slimjim, I do love your avatar

Fedor.

i was sold when i heard someone point out how pretty much every other fighter cuts weight to fight at an atvantage, and he fights bigger and stronger people, pretty much all the time, and finishes them by KO or subb. i mean seriously, he cut simply dehydrate and fight at 205. if he actually cut some bdft, i wouldn’t be surgpised if he could fight at 185. he would obviously be a different fighter, but i think all those other guys are athletes-he’s a fighter.

True but the heavyweight division is the worst division in terms of skill and talent. I believe if Fedor fought light heavy in Pride he wouldn’t be undefeated, hell watch the Arona fight.

drewh makes a good point. I’ve long believed that the super-athlete 260+ lb guy is not fighting mma, he’s in the NFL. As the salaries get higher, we’ll likely see more and more talent enter mma (as a watered down example, see this season of TUF. While it might not be wrought with talent, there are some former NFL guys in there who are at least athletes).

It’s also true that Fedor typically has more trouble with smaller, quicker heavyweights. He enjoys advantages in almost all fights in terms of poise and technique, but many times his biggest advantage is his speed. In the Tim Sylvia fight, for instance, he just swarmed him so fast Sylvia had no chance.

But Arlovski enjoyed some early success because he could match Fedor’s speed (just not his poise). Fedor did defeat Minotauro twice though, and Crocop in his prime. He also defeated Babalu at a time when he was a top 205’er (had had even beat a young Shogun). I agree with cyco though…I’ve always been amazed at his ability to defeat much larger opponents.

I study Gracie Jiu-Jitsu myself, and the gold standard is the ability to beat a larger, stronger opponent who is also trained. Fedor has been able to do this with amazing regularity.