I’m not being negative I am telling him my experience. I did have labs and did not even attribute my anxiety to E2 because I had reason, until after labs showed I did have elevated E2. And thought it may have made it worse. I was not even prescribed an AI until my labs showed that I did. I am not telling him he will get higher E2 but saying there is a chance just like his doc from Defy told him. I was on nothing but the cream.
Ok misunderstood and apologies.
I am trying to not bust your balls too much man. You throw out a lot of blanket statements though from things you have read from articles or studies. You hold on to things you want to believe and throw them out to everyone like they are gospel. If I understand something different from the same study or have read something somewhere or in this case my personal experience that contradicts what you tell people I will say something. Not because I want to bust your balls but because I want the best for everyone on here.
Same here. I’m not throwing blanket statements.
Please show me where, because the goals to simply relay the truth and obvious. Please show me where do I can change my delivery and help further.
Not going to go back through them again. I stated what I feel and feel no need to rehash things. Every time I have given you my opinion why something you state may not be absolute truth. But here is a great example of you throwing blanket statements out. You tell people that creams do not cause E2 to raise when I am a prime example that is not always the case. You threw a blanket statement that I do not fit in and I have known someone else that also did not. Then get mad and throw assumptions out at me to exclude me because I must have been wrong because it contradicts what you want to believe. Have a good day. No need to keep polluting ops thread.
“Once someone understands how the cream absorbs; why it converts to DHT at a high rate and less to e2 - they will realize that there is a legit reason for this and it’s not bro science.”
That’s what I posted above. It shows I never said that it does not rise. Obviously it does because that’s how t works when absorbed or injected. I did not make a blanket statement.
And then I said the exact same thing a few posts above.blanket statement was never made.quoted below.
“I don’t think estrogen will be your issue at that low dose. If anything it’s a great Because Much less estrogen converts through the scrotum because there is more converting to DHT than e2. If you apply in other areas of the skin it’s probably going to cause conversion to e2 and etc.”
Then why did you attack me when I contradicted you?
Why are you getting all frustrated. Nobody attacked you man. Your taking a conversation and turning it into something other than a harmless response.
I’m not frustrated. Again you threw these assumptions out on me because I pointed out something different and did not align with you.
No I did not. You are taking my words and twisting my intent. You don’t understand the basis on my comments because you don’t believe in the science behind what I say.
You have a different idea of how things works it seems, although there is scientific reasoning behind why the scrotum skin coverts more T to DHT and less to e2.
I’m not reading something and saying “I think it’s saying this” instead I am saying “this is what they said and the why behind what they stated”.
I’m simply the messenger.
The study on absorption (absorption is the key takeaway here) that you pointed me to previously, took healthy eugonadal men and had them apply the cream 3 times separated by 16 hours each. And measured after each dose to see what was achieved after dosing. Yes testosterone was raised, yes DHT did also and correct E2 was not significantly raised, but…this is where I have a problem with this test for what you are stating. These measurements were not taken to see what would happen with consistent dosing where aromatization would have more time to take place. There is a hole in the logic that this test says E2 conversion is lower as there is not enough time in this particular study to say that. That is why I do not believe in the “science” you state because it doesn’t answer that question. I believe in looking at the big picture and not a small snapshot in time. Does that say you are wrong? No, but it doesn’t say you are right either. I’m not arguing the conversion to DHT as that has been shown with longer term exposure to cream and 5-alpha-reductase being in the scrotal skin. And yes DHT should also bind E2 (I’m not sure if it binds up the free E2 vs total E2 though so may not affect blood levels in normal testing) but so is SGHB to test and that doesn’t always prove to be consistently sticky from person to person. More often than not? Yes but not always.
The study you just linked was much better in your argument. I had not seen this one yet and yes it strongly supports what your saying. I written everything up above before you linked this one. I would have liked to see more than 5 men and know what their “normal” is as that is very small study to me. I’m sorry man I question everything especially when these studies are somewhat limited in scope even if it is something that I want to believe. It’s even harder to trust them and easier to poke holes in them when it goes against my experience. I also run a lot of tests for my job and my higher ups would do the same to me if I limited my scope as much as some of these “studies” have.
@jpt365, I apologize from diverting your thread away from your particular case.
I understand and I’m with you. It’s hard to relay all my reading and evidence and appreciate your stance on all of this. I’m actually surprised you took the time to read it. Other guys around here argue a point but will never read my references or being their own. I appreciate the time you invested into looking at this with an open mind. It makes these posts informative and helpful for future visitors.
I also agree we cannot just believe every single bit of science that’s thrown at us Without criticism… many studies are just flawed. Those for and against.
For @jpt365 . We got carried away , but i think this is a great move and worth the effort. Looking forward to seeing you get dialed in and out this behind you.
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I appreciate both your inputs, thank you. Hopefully this cream will sort some things out for me and not make things worse. I’ll take my doctor’s advice and try applying on low-adipose areas for now to limit conversion. I won’t do scrotal application on my own due to the stated risk of it converting to intratesticular estrogen, I know even AI’s don’t reach that stuff.
Rise, do you have any labs on the cream you’d be willing to share? Enackers, I know you don’t get E2 measured by Dr. Nichols, right?
Also, I hear absorption sucks on arms and legs. Am I just setting myself up for misery here? @rise80 do you take an AI regularly?
I dont have any exact numbers. My doc doesn’t give them to me just tells me over the phone so unfortunately no records for myself. He also only checks total t and e2.
I was all over the place the first 4-5 months trying to figure out what was going to work for me. At one point when I was still on the 10% cream I started with, I was over 1000 total T. When I was prescribed an AI I had crept up into the 40’s I believe and initial dosing crashed me to around 5. Last 2 labs I have been in the 800’s of total T and last e2 lab I took I was back up into the 50’s (felt fine). I was all over the place with my AI though before that test. My doc didn’t tell me to do anything different after crashing (he’s not that great of a doc) so I ran off feel. As of right now I am using 1/4mg of arimidex twice a week consistently. I’m getting labs Tuesday and will have a more complete picture of where I am as I am getting more done on my own. I’m getting total and free t, DHT, e2, PSA and a CBC panel and if your interested I will share those with you when I get my results back.
I may have sounded like I was talking down on the cream with the discussion earlier but I’m not. Just wanted it understood it wasn’t cut and paste. I feel really good right now especially where I started from. I feel really consistent except for the couple hiccups of dropping after switching concentrations and crashing my e2. I have no complaints about the cream as it functions on my body. As for intratesticular conversion though, AI was able to crash mine so if you do need an AI, it should work I would think. Like I said that was the first time I have heard that. I did read it could cause more conversion but from the aromatization enzymes residing in the skin so it was more “normal” conversion. I’ve only seen Dr. Crissler say that though and didn’t say for sure where the cream was applied so there’s that.
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I would take a second look. It’s worth a try but on paper it doesn’t really sound like an effective step. Check out the study above and google around about scrotul cream and look at guys labs on this forum and others.
My first worry would be. How is one going to achieve good levels of free t with cream on regular skin.
Scrotul application makes more sense for you because we are trying to achieve same levels of free t and less e2 compared to injections.
With non scrotul application the science behind why less estrogen is created is no longer in play when you are not applying to skin with those alpha 5 reductase. More DHT less e2.
With other areas of skin one needs way more cream to achieve the same results.
For estrogen I’m Not sure haven’t done a blood test yet. I have never heard of inter testicular estrogen in any of my reading or listening at all. Even with HCG I have heard it but never proof in study or a medical doctor mentioning it’s truth.
The goal here is to dose at the same free t levels and get lower estrogen with the scrotul approach. I would stick to it. Unless your doc knows something I don’t.
I’d if doesn’t work I would jsut prescribe to an ai.
That’s what it’s there for and you’ve tried everything in your power to do this without.
I think you’ve gone through hell trying and you don’t need to do that all over again.
I personally would take one click and apply it to on the scrotum and start small.
It will give you DHT and it should be very little estrogen. If you still feel horrible it will wear off and you won’t habe to wait weeks upon weeks to stabilize again and make a change.
For a proper test wait until the cypionate is out of your system.
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That would be great.
I didn’t think you were, sounded like you were just saying that every case is different. Glad you’re feeling good on it now though.
I may have missed it, my brain is fried from no sleep due to my newborn. Did you say you were applying it to the scrotum? Was there any period where you applied it to other areas?
See, this is the stuff that’s never discussed upon prescription of new methods, granted I really should have been doing more research before I accepted it.
Neither did I until now, only with HCG as you stated. Hearing that made me nervous because I know that stuff is hard to touch once it’s there.
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Is the scrotum the only area lacking this enzyme?
Yeah I apply to the scrotum. I have applied it to the inside of my biceps and chest here and there but not enough times to make a difference. Just to see if I felt any different during the day, never noticed anything though.
I may have said it already but again congrats on the new baby! I remember those limited sleeping nights.
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