Jon Stewart & Harry Truman

[quote]orion wrote:
While I do think that to drop the bomb was a quick way to end the war and therefore the general suffering, the carpet bombings in Europe and Japan were taken from the British colonial playbook where they would simply destroy a village from the air to let it be a warning to others.

This policy specifically targeted civilians in order to break their spirit, shock and awe if you will.

Or in other words terrorism and yes, a war crime.

Attacking places like Tokyo with millions of people and wood and paper houses with fire bombs did little to soften their resolve, it did create a flaming inferno though that let hundred of thousands of people die an unimaginably painful death.

To be fair though it was Churchill who introduced that little gem into WWII.
[/quote]

Verpiss Dich! You Germans led the way on bombarding civilians. During the Great War when my Grandmother was a child my Great Grandmother had to rush her into a London underground station to escape the bombs that were being dropped around them by Luftwaffe Zeppelins.

Then there was the “Paris Gun” which was designed to lob shells 75 miles over the battle lines and into Paris.

As a military weapon, the Paris Gun wasn’t a great success: the payload was minuscule, the barrel required frequent replacement and its accuracy was only good enough for city-sized targets. However, the German objective was to build a psychological weapon to attack the morale of the Parisians, not to destroy the city itself.

I would also like to point out that the Luftwaffe bombed civilians during the Spanish civil war.

April 26, 1937

Nazis test Luftwaffe on Guernica

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history.do?action=Article&id=4950

During the Spanish Civil War, the German military tests its powerful new air force–the Luftwaffe–on the Basque town of Guernica in northern Spain.

Although the independence-minded Basque region opposed General Francisco Franco’s Nationalist forces in the Spanish Civil War, Guernica itself was a small rural city of only 5,000 inhabitants that declared nonbelligerence in the conflict. With Franco’s approval, the cutting-edge German aircraft began their unprovoked attack at 4:30 p.m., the busiest hour of the market day in Guernica. For three hours, the German planes poured down a continuous and unopposed rain of bombs and gunfire on the town and surrounding countryside. One-third of Guernica’s 5,000 inhabitants were killed or wounded, and fires engulfed the city and burned for days.

The indiscriminate killing of civilians at Guernica aroused world opinion and became a symbol of fascist brutality.

The area of Tokyo that was firebombed was involved in armaments manufacture which makes the people there participants in the war.

Why no mention of the “Rape of Nanking”?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4920138942953644691

http://www.tribo.org/nanking/

The Rape of Nanking: An Undeniable History in Photographs tells the story in words and more than 400 photographs of the Japanese invasion of China and the sacking of its capital city, Nanking, in 1937-38.

Between December 1937 and March 1938 at least 369,366 Chinese civilians and prisoners of war were slaughtered by the invading troops. An estimated 80,000 women and girls were raped; many of them were then mutilated or murdered.

THE SAVAGERY OF THE KILLING WAS AS APPALLING AS ITS SCALE.

Thousands of victims were beheaded, burned, bayoneted, buried alive, or disemboweled.

To this day the Japanese government has refused to apologize for these and other World War II atrocities, and a significant sector of Japanese society denies that they took place at all.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
orion wrote:
While I do think that to drop the bomb was a quick way to end the war and therefore the general suffering, the carpet bombings in Europe and Japan were taken from the British colonial playbook where they would simply destroy a village from the air to let it be a warning to others.

This policy specifically targeted civilians in order to break their spirit, shock and awe if you will.

Or in other words terrorism and yes, a war crime.

Attacking places like Tokyo with millions of people and wood and paper houses with fire bombs did little to soften their resolve, it did create a flaming inferno though that let hundred of thousands of people die an unimaginably painful death.

To be fair though it was Churchill who introduced that little gem into WWII.

Verpiss Dich! You Germans led the way on bombarding civilians. During the Great War when my Grandmother was a child my Great Grandmother had to rush her into a London underground station to escape the bombs that were being dropped around them by Luftwaffe Zeppelins.

Then there was the “Paris Gun” which was designed to lob shells 75 miles over the battle lines and into Paris.

As a military weapon, the Paris Gun wasn’t a great success: the payload was minuscule, the barrel required frequent replacement and its accuracy was only good enough for city-sized targets. However, the German objective was to build a psychological weapon to attack the morale of the Parisians, not to destroy the city itself.

I would also like to point out that the Luftwaffe bombed civilians during the Spanish civil war.

April 26, 1937

Nazis test Luftwaffe on Guernica

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history.do?action=Article&id=4950

During the Spanish Civil War, the German military tests its powerful new air force–the Luftwaffe–on the Basque town of Guernica in northern Spain.

Although the independence-minded Basque region opposed General Francisco Franco’s Nationalist forces in the Spanish Civil War, Guernica itself was a small rural city of only 5,000 inhabitants that declared nonbelligerence in the conflict. With Franco’s approval, the cutting-edge German aircraft began their unprovoked attack at 4:30 p.m., the busiest hour of the market day in Guernica. For three hours, the German planes poured down a continuous and unopposed rain of bombs and gunfire on the town and surrounding countryside. One-third of Guernica’s 5,000 inhabitants were killed or wounded, and fires engulfed the city and burned for days.

The indiscriminate killing of civilians at Guernica aroused world opinion and became a symbol of fascist brutality.

The area of Tokyo that was firebombed was involved in armaments manufacture which makes the people there participants in the war.

Why no mention of the “Rape of Nanking”?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4920138942953644691

http://www.tribo.org/nanking/

The Rape of Nanking: An Undeniable History in Photographs tells the story in words and more than 400 photographs of the Japanese invasion of China and the sacking of its capital city, Nanking, in 1937-38.

Between December 1937 and March 1938 at least 369,366 Chinese civilians and prisoners of war were slaughtered by the invading troops. An estimated 80,000 women and girls were raped; many of them were then mutilated or murdered.

THE SAVAGERY OF THE KILLING WAS AS APPALLING AS ITS SCALE.

Thousands of victims were beheaded, burned, bayoneted, buried alive, or disemboweled.

To this day the Japanese government has refused to apologize for these and other World War II atrocities, and a significant sector of Japanese society denies that they took place at all.
[/quote]

So yes. when the Germans or the Japanese did it it was a crime.

So when you did it it was…?

Anyone see any connection to the torture threads?

[quote]orion wrote:
Chushin wrote:
orion wrote:

Attacking places like Tokyo with millions of people and wood and paper houses with fire bombs did little to soften their resolve, …

Surely you’re referring to the military / govt leaders and not the Japanese people?

And if that’s the case, your statement says more about those leaders’ attitudes toward their people than the effectiveness of the bombing. The same thing was seen even after the 2 A-bombings: it took a tie-breaking vote by the Emperor to finally reach surrender.

Incidentally, not that it’s particulary relevant here, but I’ve had some older Japanese tell me that they were “happy” when the war ended and the occupation occured, since life was much better under the occupation than it was under the Japanese military leadership.

Of course it says something about the German and Japanese leadership, but I guess it was already known then who and what exactly they were.

It makes these bombings even worse for the civilian population had not way of influencing their leaders.
[/quote]

That is not at all true. Brutal dictators have been foiled before by people refusing to obey them. ie the Kiel mutiny.

The German Revolution (German: Novemberrevolution) was the politically-driven civil conflict in Germany at the end of World War I. The period lasted from November 1918 until the formal establishment of the Weimar Republic in August 1919. The roots of the revolution can be found in the social tensions of the German Empire, its undemocratic constitution and the unwillingness or inability of its leaders to reform. The revolution was triggered by the policy of the Supreme Command and the decision of the Naval Command in the face of defeat to deliver one last battle to the British Royal Navy. The sailor?s revolt which then ensued in the naval ports of Wilhelmshaven and Kiel spread across the whole country within days and led to the proclamation of a republic on 9 November 1918 and shortly thereafter to the abdication of Kaiser Wilhelm II.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pushharder wrote:
LIFTIC, OK, you’re President Truman. It’s July 1945. What do you do?

(I don’t why I do this. I might as well be asking Daffy Duck but let’s run with it)

I would not have murdered innocent women and children who had nothing to do with Perl Harbor.

That is NOT self defense. It was cowardly and inhuman.[/quote]

It was war. Grow up and get over it.

Millions of lives were saved because of those bombs.

Ask the Chinese. Ask the Koreans. Ask the Phillipinoes. The Japanese were not an innocent party by any stretch of the imagination.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
orion wrote:

Dear Grandson of the Folks of Who Started This War, OK, you’re President Roosevelt and Winston Churchill rolled up into one. It’s July 1944. What do you do?

Nothing.

Let the war commence as it does.

Neither the bombing of German nor of Japanese civilians did any good.

I would have dropped the bomb, but not for the reasons the carpet bombings with incendiary devices were used.

Doing nothing is not an answer to how to prosecute a war. You came on here in a full-blown moral bluster about how not to wage war. I gave you the opportunity to tell us how you would wage one.

Wars don’t just “commence” on their own. Military commanders draw up plans and execute them. I placed you in the position of Allied CiC, for the sake of debate, and asked how you would have drawn up and carried out a plan to defeat the Nazi thugs. Your answer is to hem-haw around with a little drool leaking out of your mouth and slur out a “Nothing.”

Gee fuckin wiz. [/quote]

Yup, not spending resources on bombings targets that achieve nothing and kill civilians is too fucking complicated.

No wonder the American century is over.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
orion wrote:
Chushin wrote:
orion wrote:

Attacking places like Tokyo with millions of people and wood and paper houses with fire bombs did little to soften their resolve, …

Surely you’re referring to the military / govt leaders and not the Japanese people?

And if that’s the case, your statement says more about those leaders’ attitudes toward their people than the effectiveness of the bombing. The same thing was seen even after the 2 A-bombings: it took a tie-breaking vote by the Emperor to finally reach surrender.

Incidentally, not that it’s particulary relevant here, but I’ve had some older Japanese tell me that they were “happy” when the war ended and the occupation occured, since life was much better under the occupation than it was under the Japanese military leadership.

Of course it says something about the German and Japanese leadership, but I guess it was already known then who and what exactly they were.

It makes these bombings even worse for the civilian population had not way of influencing their leaders.

That is not at all true. Brutal dictators have been foiled before by people refusing to obey them. ie the Kiel mutiny.

The German Revolution (German: Novemberrevolution) was the politically-driven civil conflict in Germany at the end of World War I. The period lasted from November 1918 until the formal establishment of the Weimar Republic in August 1919. The roots of the revolution can be found in the social tensions of the German Empire, its undemocratic constitution and the unwillingness or inability of its leaders to reform. The revolution was triggered by the policy of the Supreme Command and the decision of the Naval Command in the face of defeat to deliver one last battle to the British Royal Navy. The sailor?s revolt which then ensued in the naval ports of Wilhelmshaven and Kiel spread across the whole country within days and led to the proclamation of a republic on 9 November 1918 and shortly thereafter to the abdication of Kaiser Wilhelm II.
[/quote]

Leading to the “Dolchstoßlegende” and WWII?

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
So where would you have dropped the bombs?

Or is it that you would rather we have continued conventional warfare?

Or is it that you believe the US should have withdrawn all forces and allowed the Japanese to rebuild and re-attack?

I would have not threatened the Japanese (long before Perl Harbor happened) and then they wouldn’t have felt the need to attack the US to begin with.

It’s like people want to forget that US foreign policy was to blame in this matter. I am not apologizing for the wrong that was done to the US…but I am also not letting US foreign policy off the hook either. [/quote]

You are absolutely nuts. The Japanese invaded China in 1933 and were brutally massacreing the Chinese for years. The U.S. response was to put trade sanctions on the Japanese.

[quote]
Besides, at least the Japanese had the decency to only target a military base. Other than that everything that transpired afterwards was all in the name of saving face. It was a complete waste of life and resources.[/quote]

Wow! This is otherworldly. Even before Pearl Harbor the Japanese were well known to have committed war crimes and atrocities against civilians. ie In China the Japanese air force used the red cross on the roofs of hospitals as a bomb aiming point. But now you are going to applaud their decency? You are a trolling nutcase.

[quote]orion wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
orion wrote:
While I do think that to drop the bomb was a quick way to end the war and therefore the general suffering, the carpet bombings in Europe and Japan were taken from the British colonial playbook where they would simply destroy a village from the air to let it be a warning to others.

This policy specifically targeted civilians in order to break their spirit, shock and awe if you will.

Or in other words terrorism and yes, a war crime.

Attacking places like Tokyo with millions of people and wood and paper houses with fire bombs did little to soften their resolve, it did create a flaming inferno though that let hundred of thousands of people die an unimaginably painful death.

To be fair though it was Churchill who introduced that little gem into WWII.

Rank nonsense, once again.

Perhaps Austrian schools skip the Battle of Britain.

Coventry, VI, VII…

Yadayadayada, completely missing the point as usual -

because we already know that the Nazis and the Japanese military committed war crimes.

That still does not, and did not, make the deliberate carpet bombing of civilian targets excusable.
[/quote]

It is not a matter of making excuses. Those bombings were justified because of the way the German and Japanese people behaved. They were undeniably the meanest, cruelest, people on the planet.

To win that war we had to do a lot more than just defeat your army. We had to beat the mean out of you. We had to beat the mean out of you so much that you fuckers would never, ever think to come back and start your shit again.

If even now, after all that, you krauts cannot accept that you needed to have all of your meanness beat out of you, then we didn’t do enough.

[quote]orion wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
I think the atomic bomb was probably the necessary move, as awful as it was. However, I’m sympathetic to the argumentthat terror bombing (which is the appropriate term for killing masses of civilians to try to break an opponent’s will) is a war crime. After all, LeMay said it himself, didn’t he?

Strategic bombing, trying to cripple their industries and production, is something else. But then again, it’s a fine line between the two, especially sixty years ago.

True, they bombed Geneva when they tried to bomb, I think, Frankfurt or Essen, and that is quite a bit off.
[/quote]

I never heard of that one. Care to provide some evidence?

[quote]pushharder wrote:
orion wrote:

Yup, not spending resources on bombings targets that achieve nothing and kill civilians is too fucking complicated…

When I see photos and newsreels of French, British and American flags waving over West Berlin in the summer of 1945 I have a hard time grasping this lack of achievement thing you mentioned.[/quote]

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc?

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Sifu wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
So where would you have dropped the bombs?

Or is it that you would rather we have continued conventional warfare?

Or is it that you believe the US should have withdrawn all forces and allowed the Japanese to rebuild and re-attack?

I would have not threatened the Japanese (long before Perl Harbor happened) and then they wouldn’t have felt the need to attack the US to begin with.

It’s like people want to forget that US foreign policy was to blame in this matter. I am not apologizing for the wrong that was done to the US…but I am also not letting US foreign policy off the hook either.

You are absolutely nuts. The Japanese invaded China in 1933 and were brutally massacreing the Chinese for years. The U.S. response was to put trade sanctions on the Japanese.

Besides, at least the Japanese had the decency to only target a military base. Other than that everything that transpired afterwards was all in the name of saving face. It was a complete waste of life and resources.

Wow! This is otherworldly. Even before Pearl Harbor the Japanese were well known to have committed war crimes and atrocities against civilians. ie In China the Japanese air force used the red cross on the roofs of hospitals as a bomb aiming point. But now you are going to applaud their decency? You are a trolling nutcase.

Sif, we’ve been through this numerous times before with this guy. He doesn’t know history; doesn’t understand it. He’s not even remotely qualified to comment on it. He’s the “eliteballa” of PWI and he’s lecturing on gaining mass.
[/quote]

You?

Never.

You lack the determination.

Ask Prof X.

Either you want it or you don´t.

You don´t.

Not when it hurts.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
orion wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
I think the atomic bomb was probably the necessary move, as awful as it was. However, I’m sympathetic to the argumentthat terror bombing (which is the appropriate term for killing masses of civilians to try to break an opponent’s will) is a war crime. After all, LeMay said it himself, didn’t he?

Strategic bombing, trying to cripple their industries and production, is something else. But then again, it’s a fine line between the two, especially sixty years ago.

True, they bombed Geneva when they tried to bomb, I think, Frankfurt or Essen, and that is quite a bit off.

I never heard of that one. Care to provide some evidence?[/quote]

It is from the biography of Margit von Mises.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
orion wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
orion wrote:
While I do think that to drop the bomb was a quick way to end the war and therefore the general suffering, the carpet bombings in Europe and Japan were taken from the British colonial playbook where they would simply destroy a village from the air to let it be a warning to others.

This policy specifically targeted civilians in order to break their spirit, shock and awe if you will.

Or in other words terrorism and yes, a war crime.

Attacking places like Tokyo with millions of people and wood and paper houses with fire bombs did little to soften their resolve, it did create a flaming inferno though that let hundred of thousands of people die an unimaginably painful death.

To be fair though it was Churchill who introduced that little gem into WWII.

Rank nonsense, once again.

Perhaps Austrian schools skip the Battle of Britain.

Coventry, VI, VII…

Yadayadayada, completely missing the point as usual -

because we already know that the Nazis and the Japanese military committed war crimes.

That still does not, and did not, make the deliberate carpet bombing of civilian targets excusable.

It is not a matter of making excuses. Those bombings were justified because of the way the German and Japanese people behaved. They were undeniably the meanest, cruelest, people on the planet.

To win that war we had to do a lot more than just defeat your army. We had to beat the mean out of you. We had to beat the mean out of you so much that you fuckers would never, ever think to come back and start your shit again.

If even now, after all that, you krauts cannot accept that you needed to have all of your meanness beat out of you, then we didn’t do enough.[/quote]

So even when it achieved nothing it was a-ok because the military in a totalitarian society did similar things.

So you behaving as if you were the Nazis was ok.

I get it.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Answer the question, Salzburg Kid.[/quote]

I did , and no matter how often I answer it you will still not like the answer.