Johnson To Sue Spotter (USC)

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

[quote]biglifter wrote:

[quote]Ghost22 wrote:
The false grip, suicide grip, whateverthefuckyouwannacallit grip isn’t the issue.

Anyone with half a brain should be able to use the grip safely.

“As Yanchar placed the weight bar into the player’s hands, he was inattentive and negligent and hit the bar with his body before Johnson had a good grip on it, the lawsuit said.”

That, however, will fuck up anyone’s lift.
[/quote]

That makes for a weird mental image. I just can’t see how a spotter could bump it off their body, unless he either does handoffs like a power clean or was so far over the bench that teabag was imminent.[/quote]

I could see it if the bar was just off the rack and the spotter turned and hit it with his hip/butt/belly. If the bar moved forward once hit it suggests that the bar would have been still over the guy’s head.

If this happened before he had “a good grip” then isn’t the debate over grip irrelevant?

Then again, it sounds as if the whole thing was not set up well, sounds like the player was an inexperienced lifter and the coach was not coaching. How often do y’all unrack a weight before you have a set grip? The last time I remember ever having to check my grip was when my spotter pulled the bar up too high during the unrack and shifted the bar in my hands. I reracked the weight and corrected the spotter (and stopped using them, using the power cage instead).[/quote]

I’m with you. You would just figure S&C coach + collegiate athlete could figure out the the quantum physics that is the bench press. And damn, I cannot stomach those BP accident videos. Freak me right the fuck out.

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
There is no applicable use of a suicide grip in football, I cannot think of a single position of the field or situation that comes up where is is usable.

The problem is lack of recognizing risk to reward. When you feel the need to stand on a Bosu Ball squatting with your eyes closed while having tennis balls thrown at you, you should reconsider something. Rather than work on things like maximal strength, starting strength, and explosive strength, you have some Paul Chek-like idiot who suggests stupid shit like this. [/quote]

Max? Didn’t you play for USC? Did they have you using the suicide grip?[/quote]

Yes I played for SC in the 90’s, and no I have used a suicide grip. Even if they asked me to, I would not have used it. I saw some guys using it, thinking of the FAIL that was to eventually come. [/quote]

What position did you play?
[/quote]

Center

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

Yeah. I only managed litigation for 20 years, attended hundreds of trials, successfully settled and evaluated 10’s of 1000’s of claims but I guess you know better. What did you say you did for a living again?[/quote]

That’s a pretty good comeback brah, you still got mad basketball skillz?

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
There is no applicable use of a suicide grip in football, I cannot think of a single position of the field or situation that comes up where is is usable.

The problem is lack of recognizing risk to reward. When you feel the need to stand on a Bosu Ball squatting with your eyes closed while having tennis balls thrown at you, you should reconsider something. Rather than work on things like maximal strength, starting strength, and explosive strength, you have some Paul Chek-like idiot who suggests stupid shit like this. [/quote]

Max? Didn’t you play for USC? Did they have you using the suicide grip?[/quote]

Yes I played for SC in the 90’s, and no I have used a suicide grip. Even if they asked me to, I would not have used it. I saw some guys using it, thinking of the FAIL that was to eventually come. [/quote]

What position did you play?
[/quote]

Center[/quote]

That must be sweet to have USC as your Alma mater. Do you still attend games and root for the boys?

[quote]Blaze_108 wrote:
I thought there was a video of this on youtube? Or am I thinking of some other case of false grip failing?

Edit:
I’m thinking of this video:

[/quote]

that was absolutely terrible! I’m glad I already went to the gym today.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
There is no applicable use of a suicide grip in football, I cannot think of a single position of the field or situation that comes up where is is usable.

The problem is lack of recognizing risk to reward. When you feel the need to stand on a Bosu Ball squatting with your eyes closed while having tennis balls thrown at you, you should reconsider something. Rather than work on things like maximal strength, starting strength, and explosive strength, you have some Paul Chek-like idiot who suggests stupid shit like this. [/quote]

Max? Didn’t you play for USC? Did they have you using the suicide grip?[/quote]

Yes I played for SC in the 90’s, and no I have used a suicide grip. Even if they asked me to, I would not have used it. I saw some guys using it, thinking of the FAIL that was to eventually come. [/quote]

What position did you play?
[/quote]

Center[/quote]

Todd McNair is a friend of mine. He got scapegoated out of there in my opinion.

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

Yeah. I only managed litigation for 20 years, attended hundreds of trials, successfully settled and evaluated 10’s of 1000’s of claims but I guess you know better. What did you say you did for a living again?[/quote]

That’s a pretty good comeback brah, you still got mad basketball skillz?[/quote]

I haven’t played basketball in 17 years. I managed claims within the last 8 months. It was the best “comeback” I could manage to someone that thinks a “contract” applies.

Hey BG…just curious.

Do large fitness chains generally have language guarding against lawsuits such as these?

Who would be more at fault in a commercial gym setting, the individual doing the spotting or the actual facility? Would it be different if the individual was an employee, if so is that employee automatically protected by the gyms insurance?

I am aware that alot of gyms do not allow Dbs over a certain amount because of instances like these.

I wonder if the coach recommended the suicide grip

[quote]MattyXL wrote:
Hey BG…just curious.

Do large fitness chains generally have language guarding against lawsuits such as these?

Who would be more at fault in a commercial gym setting, the individual doing the spotting or the actual facility? Would it be different if the individual was an employee, if so is that employee automatically protected by the gyms insurance?

I am aware that alot of gyms do not allow Dbs over a certain amount because of instances like these.[/quote]

Well, in a gym, there is usually contractual language letting the customer know that the gym will not be liable for any injuries. Simply put, any athletic endeavor comes with a risk of injury and you cannot hold someone responsible for losses due to that inherent risk.

That said, such language does not protect a gym owner from its negligence. Negligence would be along the lines of failing to inspect and maintain equipment to keep it in good working order, failing to keep the common areas free of tripping and slipping hazards, etc.

As for spotting, we all know it’s something done casually. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t come with responsibility. As someone working out at a gym, you are under no legal duty to “spot” someone, but once you assume this, you need to use reasonable care. If you do not use reasonable care, and someone is injured, in my opinion you’re at risk. Now, in real practice, we don’t see these scenarios because (1) they don’t happen frequently and, (2) the average citizen does not have enough assets to make a lawsuit against them attractive - in industry parlance, they don’t usually have “deep pockets”. And when a lawyer is taking on a speculative case, he wants deep pockets, which usually means large corporations and/or plenty of insurance coverage.

I can’t see a gym being responsible for another gym member’s negligence, but there could be exposure if the gym was aware of unsafe practices occurring and did nothing to stop it. For instance, if some jackass is trying to squat on a balance ball while another jerk off is anchoring the resistance bands LOL, and the gym is aware of it, they might have a problem. Generally though, they’d have a greater risk for some idiot injuring another patron. But in general, a gym should discourage any unsafe practice.

Employees, while acting in the course and scope of their employment only, are covered under an employer’s insurance policy. “Course and scope” is key. If the gym had a policy that forbids its staff from “spotting” customers, and they did anyway, the company, and the insurance company could argue the employee was not acting within the course and scope of his employment and that he is not covered. Practically speaking however, this is not a big risk, because no lawyer wants to target an employee with no assets and, the gym could still have risk for negligent supervision of its employees. The coverage aspect relative to an employee is usually more a nuance of technical insurance coverage practice moreso than it is a practical consideration for who pays what.

If it were me, I wouldn’t let my employees spot customers. There would be a similar risk for allowing employees to “train” customers who were not certified trainers or otherwise qualified. I’d probably let the lifter “assume the risk” of the activity and keep the employees out of it. A more extreme approach would be to, like you said, limit the exposure to danger by limiting the weights and what you will allow. We all hear the horror stories of some gyms that will not allow overhead lifting and such. Well, they are attempting to keep their exposure to any liability at a minimum.

I think the happy balance is insisting that certain lifts occur within the cage, and providing adequate cages. Squat or bench until you’re content, but do it in the cage would be my policy.

In all seriousness, it wouldn’t take much to get an expert to testify that the practice of benching is dangerous, that allowing customers to “spot” other customers is potentially dangerous and that the danger can be avoided by providing power racks or, by prohibiting it altogether.

I know it sounds extreme, but that’s where this bullshit usually always starts. Why else do you think we have all the warnings we do on the simple ladder? Because somewhere, some idiot placed it on uneven ground, and fell and broke his neck. We could literally replace the ladder example I just gave for the bench accident here and people would still shake their heads in disbelief. But the reality is, we generally have to protect the stupid and careless from themselves and each other :slight_smile: LOL

[quote]pushmepullme wrote:
FWIW, and I haven’t bothered reading the articles, but frequently insurance companies bring suit in the name of the insured. So instead of a jury seeing Big Bad Insurer v. Jones, they see Smith v. Jones.[/quote]

Are you referring to a subrogation action? I’ve never seen that in a personal injury case. What you do see is the insurance carrier (in this case, probably the health insurance carrier that paid his medical bills) assert a lien against any recovery in the personal injury claim or suit. I’ve seen your example in property damages cases, but again, that’s purely a subrogation action, granted under the terms of the policy, wherein the carrier has the right to step into the shoes of the insured to recover money paid to the insured.

I’ve mentioned this in prior thread similar to this that 10 years back, I negotiated a 9 million dollar settlement to a 28 year old law school student / hobby bodybuilder who was paralyzed from a squatting accident in the smith machine. There were 3 layers of insurance involved, up to $20 million in coverage; one primary policy and two excess policies reinsured by a treaty of other insurers. Long story short, I had 13 million in authority to settle the case on the eve of trial Projections of a verdict against our insured were at about $18 million. The guy was squatting in the smith machine and his knee blew out. He was only squatting 315 or so. Because there was no bottom safety stop device on this particular smith machine, he went down, and the bar went down and crushed him on his neck. Quadriplegic.

This happened at Gold’s Venice.

A gym is responsible for it’s equipment and the equipment it allows into the gym. Other smith machines in the gym had the safety stop at the bottom. Along with all the allegations relative to the machine, there were a host of allegations regarding lack of supervision, training, etc., against the gym. All these allegations were supported by credible, qualified experts in the field.

I just provide the above to let you know I’m not making this shit up.

Your chances of ever getting sued for spotting anyone however are slim. You are unlikely to have enough assets first. Second, the case will still be difficult to prove - they will have to prove you were negligent in some manner. The mere happening of an accident is not negligence. In the video on this page, the average gym customer could not have stopped that bar from dropping on that kid. But it should illustrate to everyone here the dangers of benching - even with a spotter.

The more I think of it, if I ever find myself in a gym again, I’ll just bench in the cage.

^^ holy fuck that must suck.

I think it’s strange that we didn’t hear anything about the coach knocking the bar out of his hands when this accident actually happened. It sounds fishy to me, but then again there should be ample witnesses to testify one way or the other, and if what he says is true, I agree with his course of action.

As for the false-grip, it’s like everything else. If you don’t do it right (the guy in the video being an example), it’s extremely dangerous. However, a proper false-grip isn’t nearly as dangerous as people make it out to be.

Thanks BG that was the most thorough response I ever received.

I remember reading somewhere that 5 people die from bench pressing each year. I don’t know if that’s accurate or if it’s only for the US etc. etc. but I know it makes me cautious. If I go close to my current 3 rep max I only do it with a spotter.

Though I lift alone, I’ve always squatted and benched inside a power rack. Even more recently I ONLY do dumbbell work for chest.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Yes, if he knocked it out his hands, I hope he wins…but again, I hope some of you are thinking about what that means to the rest of us when in the gym.

If he wins, I won’t be spotting anyone else…ever.[/quote]

“The rest of us” aren’t paid coaches whose job includes spotting someone. If “the rest of us” were to act negligently while at work by not doing our job and this resulted in someone’s injury, we would be sued. I don’t know what really happened; I only know what the article says. But if the coach was spotting him and the bar hit the guy’s throat in part due to the coach not paying attention, I’d think Johnson has a very good case.

This topic interests me a lot . I did law degree way back and I am obviously regularly gym goer.

I have more extreme on safety than most of you here.

I agree wholeheartedly with Bodyguard’s comments . They were very informative and I am fairly sure he would be right. I am not sure of how much the trainee’s contributory negligence would effect damages . But that’s not really the issue.

A lot of these accidents could be prevented very easily and cheaply ( plus they are definitely foreseeable).

Even measures such as building spotter-bars into the benches (would help a lot) if they are arguing about space(which of course is a very weak argument). Think of what a weak position you are in putting the bar back.

To above OP yes it would be involuntary manslaughter (technically at least ) . Would seem unlikely though (unless they were truly negligent, possibly more so with a coach etc as BG states above. Another things that is noteworthy is that these type of claims are a guessing game (where big insurance companies guess best) as there will be very few actual cases. They will mostly settle.

Cases like this will improve gyms drastically in the future.

Loads of people use the Smith Machine without the spotter bars in the gym I go to. Even innocous things like weight trees are incredibly dangerous. All you would have to do is trip over all the weights that are left out. I have been in a few gyms and it was same there too.

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
There is no applicable use of a suicide grip in football, I cannot think of a single position of the field or situation that comes up where is is usable.

The problem is lack of recognizing risk to reward. When you feel the need to stand on a Bosu Ball squatting with your eyes closed while having tennis balls thrown at you, you should reconsider something. Rather than work on things like maximal strength, starting strength, and explosive strength, you have some Paul Chek-like idiot who suggests stupid shit like this. [/quote]

Max? Didn’t you play for USC? Did they have you using the suicide grip?[/quote]

Yes I played for SC in the 90’s, and no I have used a suicide grip. Even if they asked me to, I would not have used it. I saw some guys using it, thinking of the FAIL that was to eventually come. [/quote]

What position did you play?
[/quote]

Center[/quote]

That must be sweet to have USC as your Alma mater. Do you still attend games and root for the boys?
[/quote]

I only game I went to was the 2007 Rose Bowl Game, where USC beat Michigan. It was the only game I attended from the stands, where I was pretty shocked at what I saw. You had fans taunting each other, so much to the point that you thought they were playing themselves. It will probably be the last game I attend, since what happened in the parking lot after the game.

While walking back to my car, I wore a blue hoodie with a red USC t-shirt underneath, walking with my then girlfriend. A couple of frat guys from SC saw me with the blue hoody, and decided to talk shit to me. These kids were the typical frat idiot, 5’9, 150 lb, Abercrombie and Fitch kinda twerps. So they surround me talking shit, thinking I am a Michigan fan, and one of them decides to throw beer on me. It’s fucking ON now.

So I took off my hoodie showing my SC t-shirt, and went after the beer thrower. He ran away from me, how embarrassing is that? A guy who has the nerve to throw a beer on me runs away when I go after him. His buddies tried to calm me down, they were all stumbling drunk by then, and I called it a day.

I have had some get togethers with the boys, funny how all the fat linemen now are all thin, and the running backs/receivers/defensive backs/ and skill players are chubby.