This will never see a court room, the football program will throw money at Johnson, and call it a day. Especially since the strength coach in question is mentally irregular, that’s a proven fact, not even opinion.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Yes, if he knocked it out his hands, I hope he wins…but again, I hope some of you are thinking about what that means to the rest of us when in the gym.
If he wins, I won’t be spotting anyone else…ever.[/quote]
“The rest of us” aren’t paid coaches whose job includes spotting someone. If “the rest of us” were to act negligently while at work by not doing our job and this resulted in someone’s injury, we would be sued. I don’t know what really happened; I only know what the article says. But if the coach was spotting him and the bar hit the guy’s throat in part due to the coach not paying attention, I’d think Johnson has a very good case. [/quote]
We could do a simple thought experiment to further illuminate the potential responsibility and liability you could have for simply “spotting” someone.
Imagine someone asks you for a spot. They tell you they are going for a one rep max on the bench press. You agree that you will spot them. You both discuss whether he wants a lift off. He even tells you that he doesn’t want any assistance with the lift - that he either makes it, but if it stalls, he wants you to take it. He sets up, and says to you on “3”. 1, 2, 3 and you lift off and properly guide the bar for his descent to begin. As he lowers the weight…
Becky walks by in spandex and you’ve been wanting to do dirty things to Becky ever since she did straight legged deadlifts in a thong while standing on the bench.
You walk away to speak with her.
Bar slips, crushes lifter’s neck.
Do you think you’re responsible in any way?
Of course you are responsible. The only difference between the OP case and my extreme example above are the nuances of “negligence”. Sometimes, “negligence” is apparent and clear - someone rear ends you while you’re stopped at a red light. Clear negligence. Or, like my extreme example above, Buff Fartknocker walks away in the middle of your life to cozy up to Becky while you’re asphyxiated under the bar. Buff agreed to spot you, so he assumed a duty to do so with reasonable care. He did not exercise reasonable care, he instead walked away. Clear negligence. Those types of cases are no-brainers. It’s the less obvious cases that are more difficult to evaluate and understand.
In the case of a coach, he has responsibility to supervise, instruct and thus exercise a heightened standard of reasonable care than Buff in our example above. As a coach, he represents the University. If anything is occurring on University property that is unsafe, especially under an employee’s (coach) direct supervision, they have exposure to liability.
Some of the issues that will be examined are the decision to allow bench pressing outside the racks, whether the coach was attentive, if the kid used a “suicide grip” the coaches’ decision to allow that grip will be criticized, and whether the coach “spotted” the kid in any negligent manner - now, we all understand that such an accident is very difficult to prevent unless you’re literally holding the weight with the lifter (doing a bro-spot - "it’s all you bro).
But try explaining that to a jury that on one hand sees a coach that was supposed to be supervising this kid, after they listened to plaintiff’ experts give an opinion about the University’s and coach’s negligence and on the other side, you have this injured kid that was just lifting under a coach’s supervision, on University property.
Which way do you think that one goes???
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
and whether the coach “spotted” the kid in any negligent manner - now, we all understand that such an accident is very difficult to prevent unless you’re literally holding the weight with the lifter (doing a bro-spot - "it’s all you bro).
[/quote]
Spotting is done safely at powerlifting competitions all the time without resorting to the bro-spot. I would think that if a lifter announced it was a new PR, something similar to what is done at powerlifting meets is not out of the question. I have seen this done in gyms when the big guys lift.
My point is that there is a lot that a spotter can do to try and protect the lifter without interfering with the lift. So the fact that the S&C coach did not do these things is negligence to me.
[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
and whether the coach “spotted” the kid in any negligent manner - now, we all understand that such an accident is very difficult to prevent unless you’re literally holding the weight with the lifter (doing a bro-spot - "it’s all you bro).
[/quote]
Spotting is done safely at powerlifting competitions all the time without resorting to the bro-spot. I would think that if a lifter announced it was a new PR, something similar to what is done at powerlifting meets is not out of the question. I have seen this done in gyms when the big guys lift.
My point is that there is a lot that a spotter can do to try and protect the lifter without interfering with the lift. So the fact that the S&C coach did not do these things is negligence to me.[/quote]
Well, although we may seem to reach the same conclusion (the coach was negligent), you are getting there with flawed logic. These accidents DO occur at powerlifting competitions. Yes, with one person lifting off (and then moving out of the way) and, with two guys at either side, I have seen the bar drop and hit competitors in their chest and neck - during a competition, with TWO spotters on each side.
I have also seen lifters get utterly crushed during the squat, in spite of SEVERAL spotters being present. I myself was spotting at a competition when a lifter took 750lb along with himself AND the monolift damn near into the first row of spectators.
Now, I don’t know enough about this case to say the coach was negligent. However, I do see some problems, and I illuminated those. But to say the accident could have been prevented because they are prevented at powerlifting competitions is false.
I do think the ONLY way to prevent these accidents is to bench and squat in the CAGE.
[quote]Nards wrote:
I remember reading somewhere that 5 people die from bench pressing each year. I don’t know if that’s accurate or if it’s only for the US etc. etc. but I know it makes me cautious. If I go close to my current 3 rep max I only do it with a spotter.[/quote]
A 16 yr old boy died in Wisconsin recently from benching in his basement with 185 lbs. His mom found him with the bar pinned to his neck. They lived about 30 minutes from me. Sad story.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
and whether the coach “spotted” the kid in any negligent manner - now, we all understand that such an accident is very difficult to prevent unless you’re literally holding the weight with the lifter (doing a bro-spot - "it’s all you bro).
[/quote]
Spotting is done safely at powerlifting competitions all the time without resorting to the bro-spot. I would think that if a lifter announced it was a new PR, something similar to what is done at powerlifting meets is not out of the question. I have seen this done in gyms when the big guys lift.
My point is that there is a lot that a spotter can do to try and protect the lifter without interfering with the lift. So the fact that the S&C coach did not do these things is negligence to me.[/quote]
Well, although we may seem to reach the same conclusion (the coach was negligent), you are getting there with flawed logic. These accidents DO occur at powerlifting competitions. Yes, with one person lifting off (and then moving out of the way) and, with two guys at either side, I have seen the bar drop and hit competitors in their chest and neck - during a competition, with TWO spotters on each side.
I have also seen lifters get utterly crushed during the squat, in spite of SEVERAL spotters being present. I myself was spotting at a competition when a lifter took 750lb along with himself AND the monolift damn near into the first row of spectators.
Now, I don’t know enough about this case to say the coach was negligent. However, I do see some problems, and I illuminated those. But to say the accident could have been prevented because they are prevented at powerlifting competitions is false.
I do think the ONLY way to prevent these accidents is to bench and squat in the CAGE.[/quote]
I stand corrected and I agree with using the cage.
[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
and whether the coach “spotted” the kid in any negligent manner - now, we all understand that such an accident is very difficult to prevent unless you’re literally holding the weight with the lifter (doing a bro-spot - "it’s all you bro).
[/quote]
Spotting is done safely at powerlifting competitions all the time without resorting to the bro-spot. I would think that if a lifter announced it was a new PR, something similar to what is done at powerlifting meets is not out of the question. I have seen this done in gyms when the big guys lift.
My point is that there is a lot that a spotter can do to try and protect the lifter without interfering with the lift. So the fact that the S&C coach did not do these things is negligence to me.[/quote]
Well, although we may seem to reach the same conclusion (the coach was negligent), you are getting there with flawed logic. These accidents DO occur at powerlifting competitions. Yes, with one person lifting off (and then moving out of the way) and, with two guys at either side, I have seen the bar drop and hit competitors in their chest and neck - during a competition, with TWO spotters on each side.
I have also seen lifters get utterly crushed during the squat, in spite of SEVERAL spotters being present. I myself was spotting at a competition when a lifter took 750lb along with himself AND the monolift damn near into the first row of spectators.
Now, I don’t know enough about this case to say the coach was negligent. However, I do see some problems, and I illuminated those. But to say the accident could have been prevented because they are prevented at powerlifting competitions is false.
I do think the ONLY way to prevent these accidents is to bench and squat in the CAGE.[/quote]
I stand corrected and I agree with using the cage.[/quote]
I’m honestly bewildered that they don’t use it. It takes NOTHING from the lift and only adds safety. When I set up for a bench in the cage, my chest is expanded, my back arched - if I can make the lift, the bar never touches the safety bars. If I miss, chest inflation and arch gone, the bar will rest safely on the safety bars and I can shimmy from under - I can’t tell you how many times that has occurred in my garage 
LOL Even if it drops suddenly, without warning, and strikes my chest, it would only be a glancing blow and would never touch my neck, and never case serious injury.
I just don’t get it.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
and whether the coach “spotted” the kid in any negligent manner - now, we all understand that such an accident is very difficult to prevent unless you’re literally holding the weight with the lifter (doing a bro-spot - "it’s all you bro).
[/quote]
Spotting is done safely at powerlifting competitions all the time without resorting to the bro-spot. I would think that if a lifter announced it was a new PR, something similar to what is done at powerlifting meets is not out of the question. I have seen this done in gyms when the big guys lift.
My point is that there is a lot that a spotter can do to try and protect the lifter without interfering with the lift. So the fact that the S&C coach did not do these things is negligence to me.[/quote]
Well, although we may seem to reach the same conclusion (the coach was negligent), you are getting there with flawed logic. These accidents DO occur at powerlifting competitions. Yes, with one person lifting off (and then moving out of the way) and, with two guys at either side, I have seen the bar drop and hit competitors in their chest and neck - during a competition, with TWO spotters on each side.
I have also seen lifters get utterly crushed during the squat, in spite of SEVERAL spotters being present. I myself was spotting at a competition when a lifter took 750lb along with himself AND the monolift damn near into the first row of spectators.
Now, I don’t know enough about this case to say the coach was negligent. However, I do see some problems, and I illuminated those. But to say the accident could have been prevented because they are prevented at powerlifting competitions is false.
I do think the ONLY way to prevent these accidents is to bench and squat in the CAGE.[/quote]
I stand corrected and I agree with using the cage.[/quote]
I’m honestly bewildered that they don’t use it. It takes NOTHING from the lift and only adds safety. When I set up for a bench in the cage, my chest is expanded, my back arched - if I can make the lift, the bar never touches the safety bars. If I miss, chest inflation and arch gone, the bar will rest safely on the safety bars and I can shimmy from under - I can’t tell you how many times that has occurred in my garage LOL Even if it drops suddenly, without warning, and strikes my chest, it would only be a glancing blow and would never touch my neck, and never case serious injury.
I just don’t get it. [/quote]
I imagine gyms do not use them because of expense. At my gym there is a oly platform and cage in one corner. When my in-laws got a tour the trainer told them that that was my (referring to me) corner. Cages are the way to go, except for oly lifts.
[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
and whether the coach “spotted” the kid in any negligent manner - now, we all understand that such an accident is very difficult to prevent unless you’re literally holding the weight with the lifter (doing a bro-spot - "it’s all you bro).
[/quote]
Spotting is done safely at powerlifting competitions all the time without resorting to the bro-spot. I would think that if a lifter announced it was a new PR, something similar to what is done at powerlifting meets is not out of the question. I have seen this done in gyms when the big guys lift.
My point is that there is a lot that a spotter can do to try and protect the lifter without interfering with the lift. So the fact that the S&C coach did not do these things is negligence to me.[/quote]
Well, although we may seem to reach the same conclusion (the coach was negligent), you are getting there with flawed logic. These accidents DO occur at powerlifting competitions. Yes, with one person lifting off (and then moving out of the way) and, with two guys at either side, I have seen the bar drop and hit competitors in their chest and neck - during a competition, with TWO spotters on each side.
I have also seen lifters get utterly crushed during the squat, in spite of SEVERAL spotters being present. I myself was spotting at a competition when a lifter took 750lb along with himself AND the monolift damn near into the first row of spectators.
Now, I don’t know enough about this case to say the coach was negligent. However, I do see some problems, and I illuminated those. But to say the accident could have been prevented because they are prevented at powerlifting competitions is false.
I do think the ONLY way to prevent these accidents is to bench and squat in the CAGE.[/quote]
I stand corrected and I agree with using the cage.[/quote]
I’m honestly bewildered that they don’t use it. It takes NOTHING from the lift and only adds safety. When I set up for a bench in the cage, my chest is expanded, my back arched - if I can make the lift, the bar never touches the safety bars. If I miss, chest inflation and arch gone, the bar will rest safely on the safety bars and I can shimmy from under - I can’t tell you how many times that has occurred in my garage LOL Even if it drops suddenly, without warning, and strikes my chest, it would only be a glancing blow and would never touch my neck, and never case serious injury.
I just don’t get it. [/quote]
I imagine gyms do not use them because of expense. At my gym there is a oly platform and cage in one corner. When my in-laws got a tour the trainer told them that that was my (referring to me) corner. Cages are the way to go, except for oly lifts.[/quote]
Not sure if it’s expense or just not recognizing the risk and the fact that the risk is very small (but the outcome can be terrible). It’s just not something that happens often enough in a typical gym setting to be on their radar. And Oly lifting is a sport rarely practiced in a commercial gym and Oly lifting certainly has risks, but those risks are risks of the activity - not of any safety shortcomings. You can’t spot a snatch and you cannot save someone from a missed lift in Oly lifting. It’s just the risk of sport there.
Hey BG,
I’ve been reading up on smith machine accident, did you know the guy is still competing?
naturalbodybuilding.com/results/universe2005.html
Bad ass.
I’m all for some dumbass thst does stupid crap to get nothing , but if you are being spotted by a strength coach, using what I consider sn unsafe grip, ( not allowed in competition btw), and he makes a mistake, I don’t see the school and coach can maintain they’re not at fault.
I have a monolift and a westside power cage with one inch increments. We can set the safety pins every inch for maximum safety and use chains on the monolift. Most gyms I see with monolifts also feature these chains.
Why take a risk? Lifting heavy stuff has it’s risks, so be safe. You’ll push harder knowing you can do do with protection.
[quote]Ghost22 wrote:
The false grip, suicide grip, whateverthefuckyouwannacallit grip isn’t the issue.
Anyone with half a brain should be able to use the grip safely.
“As Yanchar placed the weight bar into the player’s hands, he was inattentive and negligent and hit the bar with his body before Johnson had a good grip on it, the lawsuit said.”
That, however, will fuck up anyone’s lift.
[/quote]
That is one side of the story, not necessarily the truth. A traditional grip might have prevented the accident.
The suicide grip is definitely a problem.
Are you defending it because you use it? If so, why?
[quote]Big Banana wrote:
[quote]Ghost22 wrote:
The false grip, suicide grip, whateverthefuckyouwannacallit grip isn’t the issue.
Anyone with half a brain should be able to use the grip safely.
“As Yanchar placed the weight bar into the player’s hands, he was inattentive and negligent and hit the bar with his body before Johnson had a good grip on it, the lawsuit said.”
That, however, will fuck up anyone’s lift.
[/quote]
That is one side of the story, not necessarily the truth. A traditional grip might have prevented the accident.
The suicide grip is definitely a problem.
Are you defending it because you use it? If so, why?[/quote]
I’l admit to using this grip but I never go over 105kg on the bench. I wont put my trust in a spotter as I dont feel comfortable spotting people going heavy myself and dont believe there is a great deal a single spotter can do if you drop the bar going heavy anyway.
eg I passed a 60kg dumbell to a guy the other night (he got the first up ok) and spotted him chest pressing but what could I do if he dropped one, there aint no way im catching a 60k db from that angle. I know db pressing is safer and off topic but jus sayin!
[quote]Big Banana wrote:
[quote]Ghost22 wrote:
The false grip, suicide grip, whateverthefuckyouwannacallit grip isn’t the issue.
Anyone with half a brain should be able to use the grip safely.
“As Yanchar placed the weight bar into the player’s hands, he was inattentive and negligent and hit the bar with his body before Johnson had a good grip on it, the lawsuit said.”
That, however, will fuck up anyone’s lift.
[/quote]
That is one side of the story, not necessarily the truth. A traditional grip might have prevented the accident.
The suicide grip is definitely a problem.
Are you defending it because you use it? If so, why?[/quote]
Just to be clear, if all the false grip debate originated from my early post, I said it was pure speculation he used a false grip. I’ve yet to hear any proof this was the case. I just wouldn’t be suprised if it turned out to be true. The few nasty bench accidents I’ve seen all happened with false grips.
If they get that strength coach to explain why he would use such a grip for a running back who never uses such a hand position in football, it could get interesting.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Hey BG,
I’ve been reading up on smith machine accident, did you know the guy is still competing?
naturalbodybuilding.com/results/universe2005.html
Bad ass.[/quote]
I’m not sure if I ever saw pictures of him. Do you have links to send me? I’d love to read them. Good for him. I’m really happy to see him fighting if that’s him. It’s one of the few times I felt okay paying out that much money. We had good defenses to the claim but the manufacturer of that Smith machine only had $1m in coverage. We had $20m total. If we got tagged even a little bit for liability, we’d eat the whole verdict under the State’s Joint & Several Liability doctrine. Tough case all the way around. I settled that case at 2 a.m. eastern time. Plaintiff and his attorneys were in CA. I saved $5 million in authority. I was a hero for a day. At the end of the week, I got my usual and customary paycheck. And that’s why I hate working for other people
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
If they get that strength coach to explain why he would use such a grip for a running back who never uses such a hand position in football, it could get interesting. [/quote]
I’m very curious about your drawing comparison to his alleged grip and any football crossover. I’ve always understood that the bench press was pretty meaningless in terms of transferring to football skills and mechanics on the field. Why such attention to his grip for you?
FWIW, as for the false grip, I think the accident could have just as easily occurred with a regular grip. We’ve seen enough of both that we can’t draw conclusions concerning the dangers of any particular grip. Sometimes the bar slips. Period. And that’s what spotters are for.
Raj, that’s him. Harold Bostick. I’m happy to see him fighting for a regular life. I’m going to reach out to him.
Memories are getting better now. Apparently I was better than I thought. I paid 7.3 M assuming that is accurate. This was quite some time ago. Here’s the press release. Apparently they proceeded to trial against the manufacturer and received quite a sizable verdict. Feels good to know I made a good professional decision. We would have been responsible for that verdict in its entirety if we tried the case and the jury assigned even 1% liability to Gold’s. Here’s the release:
Los Angeles Jury Awards $16 Million To Quadriplegic Man
Monday July 28, 12:51 pm ET
LOS ANGELES, July 28 /PRNewswire/ – A Los Angeles Superior Court awarded Harold Leon Bostick $16,274,966.00 in a jury verdict against Flex Equipment Company, Inc. located in Murietta, California, for manufacturing a dangerous and defective exercise machine which crushed Mr. Bostick’s spinal cord. Defendant Flex Equipment admitted to removing safety stops which would have prevented Mr. Bostick’s injury because of fears that leaving the safety devices on would have reduced sales. The trial lasted 23 court days and the jury deliberated 4 days. The jury found that Flex acted with malice and oppression and a punitive damage phase was scheduled to begin today, Monday, July 28, 2003 at 9:00 a.m. in department 17 in Los Angeles Superior Court, Central District, Hon. Judge Robert H. O’Brien presiding. Another defendant in the case, Gold’s Gym Holding Corp., settled out of the case for $7.3 million just before the case was sent to the jury.
Attorneys Steven C. Smith and William D. Chapman of Smith, Chapman & Campbell located in Santa Ana, California, said that they are “elated that Mr. Bostick will be cared for the rest of his life. Manufacturers like Flex Equipment should understand that they have duties to take reasonable precautions for the safety of the equipment they manufacture.” The machine found to be dangerous and defective, and which caused Mr. Bostick’s quadriplegia, is still sitting in the Gold’s Gym, Venice Beach, California location, according to Chapman.
Mr. Bostick, then a first-year law student at Pepperdine University School of Law, was rendered a quadriplegic on January 4, 2001 when he was crushed while doing squats on a Smith machine at Gold’s Gym in Venice, California. Gold’s Gym, Venice is trademarked as the “Mecca of body building,” and was featured in the 1975 movie, “Pumping Iron,” starring Arnold Schwarzenegger and Lou Ferrigno. Movie stars and other celebrities are known to frequent the gym.
A Smith machine attaches the weight-lifting bar to a vertical track and can be latched off using a hook-and-peg system. Frank Smith, an expert in the case, testified that Flex Equipment is the only major U.S. manufacturer of Smith machines which still sells the machines without adjustable safety stops. The adjustable stops allow a user to set the ultimate stopping point for the weights.
The Smith machine in this case, manufactured by Flex Equipment, had previously been equipped with adjustable safety stops. Mark Nalley, the President of Flex, testified that in 1989 when he redesigned the machine, he was aware that a crushing spinal cord injury could result if the user lost control of the weight bar while doing exercises. Nalley testified that he decided to remove the safety stops because the adjustable stops were not being used and due to a concern over a loss of “range of motion” if the stops were used. Nalley testified that he replaced the adjustable safety stops with a “dead stop” 21" off the ground, which he believed would prevent a crushing injury if someone lost control of the bar.
Experts showed that the spine of the 6’4" male is 26" and had the stops been at 26 inches, Mr. Bostick’s catastrophic injuries would not have occurred. Flex’s experts did not defend the safety of the 21" stops, but testified that the 21" stop was necessary to allow a 4’10" woman to do a “full” squat with her buttocks on the ground; however, other expert testimony was that a 4’10" woman only needed to get the bar 27" off the ground to do a full squat.
This release was issued through The Xpress Press News Service, merging e- mail and satellite distribution technologies to reach business analysts and media outlets worldwide. For more information, visit http://www.XpressPress.com
I just sent his lawyer the following e-mail:
Dear Bill:
I don’t know if you remember me, but I was the analyst for United National that negotiated that settlement with you on behalf of Gold’s Gym, many years ago. We put the case to rest in the wee hours of the morning (NJ time) from our respective homes, on the eve of trial.
I’ve never forgotten Harold, and from time to time, I caution other people about the potential dangers of the Smith Machine. I still compete in powerlifting myself. The subject of catastrophic lifting injuries came up recently on an internet forum and I did some searching, and just discovered that the case, and the appeals, have dragged on until recently. I sincerely hope that Harold has received a measure of justice and financial security.
Someone sent me a picture of him competing in bodybuilding, in a wheelchair. I’m very happy to see him fighting to retain that part of him that was taken away on that terrible day. I’m also happy to see that he continued his education, earning advanced degrees along the way. While the rest of the world bitches and moans about not having enough time to stay healthy, and complaining about various aches and pains, a guy like Harold comes along with amazing courage and tenacity and let’s the rest of us know that we live with poor excuses for not getting off our collective asses. I salute him.
I’ve paid out 100’s of millions of dollars in my career, often very reluctantly, but I had little reluctance in Harold’s case - it was just a matter of price. It was one of the few times I felt like I did something good - for everyone involved. Please send him my regards and tell him that I admire his courage and tenacity.
I also enjoyed our negotiations. You’re a fine attorney and you and your firm did a heckuva job for him.
Warm regards,
Steve ****