I just remembered you wrote that you tried Superdrol once in a previous thread.
Superdrol is a relatively new oral designer steroid and very harsh on your body. It is nothing like normal orals that have been approved for use medically in the past. Personally I will never touch it because I react rather badly to orals in general. Regular users here won’t even recommend using it for more than 3 weeks.
Perhaps your views may be influenced by this experience.[/quote]
Actually tried a couple different ph’s back in the day. I have zero lingering health problems from those, though there was some hair thinning the last time around.
Since all the juice monkeys here are getting incredibly defensive, talking shit and calling me stupid, I’ll say it like this: connecting the dots between steroids and health problems doesn’t take a genius intellect. Hell, Mike Mattarazzo just died and blatantly admitted his health problems were caused solely by the drugs. When you hear hoof prints, think horses, not zebras.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Yes, low levels of BF (3%-4%) seem dangerous logically (Idk if that’s true or not), but isn’t 10% a healthier bf% than 15%-20%? Wouldn’t less BF actually increase (in theory) longevity and equally as important, imo, quality of life?
[/quote]
Actually, based on longevity studies, people in the 15% range live longer. [/quote]
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I just thought the analogy was a bit of a stretch just because there are health benefits to certain compounds where as there isn’t with cigarettes. [/quote]
Smoking cigarettes is strongly correlated with a lower risk of Parkinson’s disease, FYI. [/quote]
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Wow, at this train wreck. I’ve always found it a little ironic too that there are super health conscious guys who compete at that level. It’s kind of like being a smoker who is all into healthy eating. I’m sure it does them good, and it may even be more worth their while with their other habits, but it’s still weird to talk about healthy living with a cigarette dangling out of your mouth.[/quote]
I’m not so sure the analogy fits. Smoking pretty much causes cancer, we know this, PED use is more of an open case isn’t it? There are legitimate medical uses for various compounds also used as PEDs. That is not the case for cigarettes (except nicotine I suppose). [/quote]
PED use is still in its relative infancy, so there hasn’t been a ton of studies done on their long term safety (that I’m aware of). But, through anecdotal evidence, context clues and just plain listening to all of the older bb’ers outright state that the drugs ruined their health, we can come to the logical conclusion that, at that level, steroids are bad for you. How many ex bb’ers have died in the last five years from heart and/or kidney problems? [/quote]
Idk, I mean on one hand, yes, I think anecdotal evidence does suggest PED use can be detrimental to health. However, in a lot of cases I think PEDs become the scapegoat for other issues so I disagree that the logical conclusion is that steroids are bad for you.
A guy has an underlying heart issue, is on roids, and dies. It’s the steroids that get blamed even when proof is anecdote in most case because, you’re right, there aren’t a lot of studies (that I’m aware of). From what I understand there are moral / ethical issues with the study of PEDs. I don’t see it, but that’s what I’ve read.
The fact is TRT is a legitimate use for certain compounds that are already being used recreationally. I’m talking more in general here at this point. If a 30 year old 230lbs guy that eats relativity healthy (not ripped), trains regularly (still has strength goals), and genuinely has their shit together decides to use steroids to get to a more ideal physique for himself (think 10%-11% BF) and finally deadlift 600lbs I don’t see an inherent danger to that. Yes, low levels of BF (3%-4%) seem dangerous logically (Idk if that’s true or not), but isn’t 10% a healthier bf% than 15%-20%? Wouldn’t less BF actually increase (in theory) longevity and equally as important, imo, quality of life?
I just don’t think it’s quite as black and white as some would make it seem where as smoking is pretty black and white. [/quote]
I see what you’re saying, but (using heart problems as an example), there would have to be some strange cosmic phenomenon that draws people with underlying heart problems to bodybuilding. I’m sure carrying around all that weight, the insane amounts of food and lack of other general activity play into it as well. [/quote]
True, but an underlying issue can easily be misdiagnosed or not diagnosed at all.
[quote]
Using the smoking example, I view TRT akin to “social smoking”. Having two cigs while drinking twice a month is probably not doing much damage, at least irreversibly. Smoking two packs a day though is gonna catch up to you real quick. I’m obviously using a ton of creative liberty in these comparisons.[/quote]
Lol, ya I suppose. I still see it a bit differently, but at the end of the day we don’t disagree on the big picture.
I just remembered you wrote that you tried Superdrol once in a previous thread.
Superdrol is a relatively new oral designer steroid and very harsh on your body. It is nothing like normal orals that have been approved for use medically in the past. Personally I will never touch it because I react rather badly to orals in general. Regular users here won’t even recommend using it for more than 3 weeks.
Perhaps your views may be influenced by this experience.[/quote]
Actually tried a couple different ph’s back in the day. I have zero lingering health problems from those, though there was some hair thinning the last time around.
Since all the juice monkeys here are getting incredibly defensive, talking shit and calling me stupid, I’ll say it like this: connecting the dots between steroids and health problems doesn’t take a genius intellect. Hell, Mike Mattarazzo just died and blatantly admitted his health problems were caused solely by the drugs. When you hear hoof prints, think horses, not zebras.[/quote]
I’ve got nothing against Mike Mattarazzo (I don’t even know who that is except through Google), but how the heck does he know his health issue were due solely to drugs?
Anyway, look at his quotes on Wikipedia:
“Oh, God, where do I begin? I’d have to say that everything that led to my heart problem began the minute I started getting serious about competitive bodybuilding. In order to get bigger, I’d eat five, six, seven pounds of red meat a day, no vegetables. And I’d stay away from fruits because of their sugar.”
“Worst were the chemicals. I have so many memories of being alone in a hotel room the week, five days or two days before a contest, and doing unspeakable things to my bodyâ??steroids, growth hormones, diureticsâ??anything and everything that we as bodybuilders do to achieve a certain look.”
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I’ve got nothing against Mike Mattarazzo (I don’t even know who that is except through Google), but how the heck does he know his health issue were due solely to drugs?
[/quote]
I just remembered you wrote that you tried Superdrol once in a previous thread.
Superdrol is a relatively new oral designer steroid and very harsh on your body. It is nothing like normal orals that have been approved for use medically in the past. Personally I will never touch it because I react rather badly to orals in general. Regular users here won’t even recommend using it for more than 3 weeks.
Perhaps your views may be influenced by this experience.[/quote]
Actually tried a couple different ph’s back in the day. I have zero lingering health problems from those, though there was some hair thinning the last time around.
Since all the juice monkeys here are getting incredibly defensive, talking shit and calling me stupid, I’ll say it like this: connecting the dots between steroids and health problems doesn’t take a genius intellect. Hell, Mike Mattarazzo just died and blatantly admitted his health problems were caused solely by the drugs. When you hear hoof prints, think horses, not zebras.[/quote]
I’ve got nothing against Mike Mattarazzo (I don’t even know who that is except through Google), but how the heck does he know his health issue were due solely to drugs?
Anyway, look at his quotes on Wikipedia:
“Oh, God, where do I begin? I’d have to say that everything that led to my heart problem began the minute I started getting serious about competitive bodybuilding. In order to get bigger, I’d eat five, six, seven pounds of red meat a day, no vegetables. And I’d stay away from fruits because of their sugar.”
“Worst were the chemicals. I have so many memories of being alone in a hotel room the week, five days or two days before a contest, and doing unspeakable things to my bodyÃ?¢??steroids, growth hormones, diureticsÃ?¢??anything and everything that we as bodybuilders do to achieve a certain look.”
He’s obviously one of many extreme examples. [/quote]
Exactly. This is also why I’m trying to tell people that, to understand the big picture, you would have to be someone with a lot of experience with these kind of drugs and have intimate knowledge of HOW they are used/abused by users like Mike. And have knowledge on their LIFESTYLE such as eating habits.
The pharmacology of each compound is different. Side effects are different and directly relate to quantity and duration of use. Different people react differently.
For example, the only medical literature I could find relating oral steroids to potentially severe health problems involved designer steroids/prohormones.
In contrast, most commonly used oral steroids like dbol have been used on subjects in studies at double the dose some bodybuilders take for a 6-8 week time period without many adverse effects. Anadrol, one of the harshest orals, has been used over 4 months on aids patients at moderate “bodybuilder” doses.
However, if someone got really fucked up on Superdrol, which is rarely used and generally not recommended nor used by seasoned users, the headline would still read “Bodybuilder Gets Fucked up on Steroids”.
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Hell, Mike Mattarazzo just died and blatantly admitted his health problems were caused solely by the drugs. [/quote]
This is bad logic. What Mattarazzo did was blame his health problems on drugs (and obviously from his quotes other things as well, not solely drugs). Difference between blaming and admitting. If I get cancer and ‘admit’ that the reason I got cancer was talking on cell phones and sitting too close to computer monitors, that doesn’t actually make it a fact that those caused my cancer, as much as some people would like that to be the case.
As others have said, he doesn’t actually know that to be true. And you continue to pretty much lump all drugs into the ‘drugs bin’ without discretion. I consider that to be a mistake. Big difference in toxicity between, say, injectable testosterone and oral trenbolone. HUGE difference.
And comparing TRT to social smoking is ridiculous, no matter how many liberties you feel you’re taking there. Might as well say a desk is the same thing as a forklift… you know, I’m just taking some liberties.
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Hell, Mike Mattarazzo just died and blatantly admitted his health problems were caused solely by the drugs. [/quote]
This is bad logic. What Mattarazzo did was blame his health problems on drugs (and obviously from his quotes other things as well, not solely drugs). Difference between blaming and admitting. If I get cancer and ‘admit’ that the reason I got cancer was talking on cell phones and sitting too close to computer monitors, that doesn’t actually make it a fact that those caused my cancer, as much as some people would like that to be the case.
As others have said, he doesn’t actually know that to be true. And you continue to pretty much lump all drugs into the ‘drugs bin’ without discretion. I consider that to be a mistake. Big difference in toxicity between, say, injectable testosterone and oral trenbolone. HUGE difference.
And comparing TRT to social smoking is ridiculous, no matter how many liberties you feel you’re taking there. Might as well say a desk is the same thing as a forklift… you know, I’m just taking some liberties.
[/quote]
Matta blames steroids, but also admitted his diet was far from healthy. I think he said he never ate fruits or vegetables.
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Hell, Mike Mattarazzo just died and blatantly admitted his health problems were caused solely by the drugs. [/quote]
This is bad logic. What Mattarazzo did was blame his health problems on drugs (and obviously from his quotes other things as well, not solely drugs). Difference between blaming and admitting. If I get cancer and ‘admit’ that the reason I got cancer was talking on cell phones and sitting too close to computer monitors, that doesn’t actually make it a fact that those caused my cancer, as much as some people would like that to be the case.
As others have said, he doesn’t actually know that to be true. And you continue to pretty much lump all drugs into the ‘drugs bin’ without discretion. I consider that to be a mistake. Big difference in toxicity between, say, injectable testosterone and oral trenbolone. HUGE difference.
And comparing TRT to social smoking is ridiculous, no matter how many liberties you feel you’re taking there. Might as well say a desk is the same thing as a forklift… you know, I’m just taking some liberties.
[/quote]
Matta blames steroids, but also admitted his diet was far from healthy. I think he said he never ate fruits or vegetables.
[/quote]
I think the point WF is making though, is that millions upon millions of people don’t eat fruits or veggies, eat primarily red meat(specifically high omega-6 red meat), and don’t do cardio, and yet the general population doesn’t die before 50 of heart problems as often as former professional BBers from the last ~20 years(obviously it happens, especially in the obese, and while that population is rising drastically, it’s still not the majority, while the above diet is still most certainly the majority).
We’ve also removed a lot of context here, WF is basically just saying that ‘the BBing lifestyle at that level isn’t really healthy in general, even among those that seem ‘reserved’ in their use,’ and we have a decent pile of anecdotal evidence to suggest this. He has agreed that taking measures to prolong your life as best you can like Meadows and others preach is absolutely the best approach, but there’s still a note of irony to taking far beyond medical dosages of Testosterone, as well as using GH and insulin and other substances, while condemning another user to death before 40.
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Hell, Mike Mattarazzo just died and blatantly admitted his health problems were caused solely by the drugs. [/quote]
This is bad logic. What Mattarazzo did was blame his health problems on drugs (and obviously from his quotes other things as well, not solely drugs). Difference between blaming and admitting. If I get cancer and ‘admit’ that the reason I got cancer was talking on cell phones and sitting too close to computer monitors, that doesn’t actually make it a fact that those caused my cancer, as much as some people would like that to be the case.
As others have said, he doesn’t actually know that to be true. And you continue to pretty much lump all drugs into the ‘drugs bin’ without discretion. I consider that to be a mistake. Big difference in toxicity between, say, injectable testosterone and oral trenbolone. HUGE difference.
And comparing TRT to social smoking is ridiculous, no matter how many liberties you feel you’re taking there. Might as well say a desk is the same thing as a forklift… you know, I’m just taking some liberties.
[/quote]
Matta blames steroids, but also admitted his diet was far from healthy. I think he said he never ate fruits or vegetables.
[/quote]
I think the point WF is making though, is that millions upon millions of people don’t eat fruits or veggies, eat primarily red meat(specifically high omega-6 red meat), and don’t do cardio, and yet the general population doesn’t die before 50 of heart problems as often as former professional BBers from the last ~20 years(obviously it happens, especially in the obese, and while that population is rising drastically, it’s still not the majority, while the above diet is still most certainly the majority).
We’ve also removed a lot of context here, WF is basically just saying that ‘the BBing lifestyle at that level isn’t really healthy in general, even among those that seem ‘reserved’ in their use,’ and we have a decent pile of anecdotal evidence to suggest this. He has agreed that taking measures to prolong your life as best you can like Meadows and others preach is absolutely the best approach, but there’s still a note of irony to taking far beyond medical dosages of Testosterone, as well as using GH and insulin and other substances, while condemning another user to death before 40.
[/quote]
I really want to pick this apart, but there’s so much garbage in here it’s not even worth it.
red04, you’re talking about a very small sample size that competes in an extreme sport and trying to compare that to the average person. Doesn’t that seem, idk, short sighted? What are you even basing the above observation on?
Using the smoking example, I view TRT akin to “social smoking”. [/quote]
I wouldn’t even use that analogy. TRT is for a medical condition: hypogonadism. I’ve been hypogonadal since 22 and under the care of a doctor all along. [/quote]
Lmao at that logic. Smoking effects other people as well as yourself. Trt effects no one but yourself and in many cases these are all positive.
[/quote]
OH, NO? What about roid rage. dun…dun…dun[/quote]
Hahah ya if you have ‘‘roid rage’’ youre probably just a dick anyway. Id expect a lot of people with lower natural test would be more angry and grumpy than someone on trt.
[/quote]
Was no one paying attention when I finished that statement with “I’m obviously taking a lot of creative liberties with these comparisons”? Jesus, the collective reading comprehension around here has taken a sharp nosedive. [/quote]
If the analogy is false in the first place and you know it why even post it? makes no sense
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Hell, Mike Mattarazzo just died and blatantly admitted his health problems were caused solely by the drugs. [/quote]
This is bad logic. What Mattarazzo did was blame his health problems on drugs (and obviously from his quotes other things as well, not solely drugs). Difference between blaming and admitting. If I get cancer and ‘admit’ that the reason I got cancer was talking on cell phones and sitting too close to computer monitors, that doesn’t actually make it a fact that those caused my cancer, as much as some people would like that to be the case.
As others have said, he doesn’t actually know that to be true. And you continue to pretty much lump all drugs into the ‘drugs bin’ without discretion. I consider that to be a mistake. Big difference in toxicity between, say, injectable testosterone and oral trenbolone. HUGE difference.
And comparing TRT to social smoking is ridiculous, no matter how many liberties you feel you’re taking there. Might as well say a desk is the same thing as a forklift… you know, I’m just taking some liberties.
[/quote]
Matta blames steroids, but also admitted his diet was far from healthy. I think he said he never ate fruits or vegetables.
[/quote]
I think the point WF is making though, is that millions upon millions of people don’t eat fruits or veggies, eat primarily red meat(specifically high omega-6 red meat), and don’t do cardio, and yet the general population doesn’t die before 50 of heart problems as often as former professional BBers from the last ~20 years(obviously it happens, especially in the obese, and while that population is rising drastically, it’s still not the majority, while the above diet is still most certainly the majority).
We’ve also removed a lot of context here, WF is basically just saying that ‘the BBing lifestyle at that level isn’t really healthy in general, even among those that seem ‘reserved’ in their use,’ and we have a decent pile of anecdotal evidence to suggest this. He has agreed that taking measures to prolong your life as best you can like Meadows and others preach is absolutely the best approach, but there’s still a note of irony to taking far beyond medical dosages of Testosterone, as well as using GH and insulin and other substances, while condemning another user to death before 40.
[/quote]
Lol at that whole first paragraph of response…there are tons of people dying from those very things before 50 please step into a hospital some time
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
red04, you’re talking about a very small sample size that competes in an extreme sport and trying to compare that to the average person. Doesn’t that seem, idk, short sighted? What are you even basing the above observation on? [/quote]
Well, the discussion began about two members of the very small sample size of competitors in said extreme sport though, correct?
Which observation are you questioning? I’d guess the one about BBers dying before 50 on average at a rate greater than the general populous? Yes I don’t have any hard stats on that one, it’s possible I’m wrong, I’m not trying to assert anything as irrefutable proof, especially without citing anything.
However, even knowing that heart disease is THE leading killer in the west, it certainly feels like there are quite a number of guys from the recent era of the BB game that are dying quite young, while heart disease still waits until later ages to kill MOST of its victims that aren’t walking billboards of the other markers(obesity being the obvious thing here, which I mentioned).
Maybe this isn’t what WF was getting at and I’m misrepresenting him, but I feel like that’s what he was getting at, and it was taken as much more of an insult/attack than it was meant to be. Dude is just saying that this may not be the healthiest hobby in the world, especially when taken to the extreme(competition, playing the size game), so condemning another competitor to a pre-40 death bed comes off feeling awkward.
All this said I think Bostin Loyd is a joke and it pains me to see him grow as this weird kind of icon.
Yeah Loyd is a complete moron: by his own admission he’s already made his waist bigger from sloppy insulin use and thinks that building up tons of scar tissue in his arms from endless site injections adds to his ‘fullness’.
I also really struggle to see how he’s making 600,000 dollars a year
[quote]RampantBadger wrote:
Yeah Loyd is a complete moron: by his own admission he’s already made his waist bigger from sloppy insulin use and thinks that building up tons of scar tissue in his arms from endless site injections adds to his ‘fullness’.
I also really struggle to see how he’s making 600,000 dollars a year[/quote]
Really? I can think of a way, but it doesn’t involve training services.
[quote]RampantBadger wrote:
Yeah Loyd is a complete moron: by his own admission he’s already made his waist bigger from sloppy insulin use and thinks that building up tons of scar tissue in his arms from endless site injections adds to his ‘fullness’.
I also really struggle to see how he’s making 600,000 dollars a year[/quote]
Really? I can think of a way, but it doesn’t involve training services.[/quote]
Obviously something mucky like G4pay or steroid dealing but even if say hes making a 1/4 mill in both he still falls short