Joe McCarthy

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]pushharder wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
pushharder wrote:
The thing is, the Venona Project vindicated McCarthy. The details were released in 1995.

Oh?

Which particular accusations were vindicated?

Many, oh so many of the commie agents he was scoffed at back in the day for accusing them…were indeed commie agents as proved by Verona cables.[/quote]

But which ones in particular?
My memory is that not one of his 57, or 81 or 247, or whatever number, of commies and traitors was ever indicted or otherwise confirmed.

So I checked my memory against the Wikipedia entries for Venona, and McCarthy

These are the specific names confirmed by the Venona Project (the veracity of which in itself has been questioned): Julius Rosenberg (but possibly not Ethel), Alger Hiss, Dexter White.

And here is the corresponding “list,” offered only when he could not produce the names of suspects:

“During the [Tydings Committee] hearings, McCarthy moved on from his original unnamed Lee list cases [which McCarthy had appropriated] and used the hearings to make charges against nine specific people: Dorothy Kenyon, Esther Brunauer, Haldore Hanson, Gustavo Duran, Owen Lattimore, Harlow Shapley, Frederick Schuman, John S. Service, and Philip Jessup. Some of them no longer worked for the State Department, or never had; all had previously been the subject of charges of varying worth and validity. Owen Lattimore became a particular focus of McCarthy’s, who at one point described him as a “top Russian spy.” Throughout the hearings, McCarthy employed colorful rhetoric, but produced no substantial evidence, to support his accusations.”

Now then, I do not have the Venona Project at my command, but do any of these 9 (count them) appear in it? Were McCarthy’s scurrilous charges at the Army hearings proven?

McCarthy was a liar, a manipulator, and if there was a kernel of truth anywhere in his Senate career, it only serves as an example that the best lies are told around something true.

For entertainment value, the best documentary–ever:

25

[quote]pushharder wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
pushharder wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
pushharder wrote:
The thing is, the Venona Project vindicated McCarthy. The details were released in 1995.

Oh?

Which particular accusations were vindicated?

Many, oh so many of the commie agents he was scoffed at back in the day for accusing them…were indeed commie agents as proved by Verona cables.

But which ones in particular?
My memory is that not one of his 57, or 81 or 247, or whatever number, of commies and traitors was ever indicted or otherwise confirmed.

So I checked my memory against the Wikipedia entries for Venona, and McCarthy

These are the specific names confirmed by the Venona Project (the veracity of which in itself has been questioned): Julius Rosenberg (but possibly not Ethel), Alger Hiss, Dexter White.

And here is the corresponding “list,” offered only when he could not produce the names of suspects:

“During the [Tydings Committee] hearings, McCarthy moved on from his original unnamed Lee list cases [which McCarthy had appropriated] and used the hearings to make charges against nine specific people: Dorothy Kenyon, Esther Brunauer, Haldore Hanson, Gustavo Duran, Owen Lattimore, Harlow Shapley, Frederick Schuman, John S. Service, and Philip Jessup. Some of them no longer worked for the State Department, or never had; all had previously been the subject of charges of varying worth and validity. Owen Lattimore became a particular focus of McCarthy’s, who at one point described him as a “top Russian spy.” Throughout the hearings, McCarthy employed colorful rhetoric, but produced no substantial evidence, to support his accusations.”

Now then, I do not have the Venona Project at my command, but do any of these 9 (count them) appear in it? Were McCarthy’s scurrilous charges at the Army hearings proven?

McCarthy was a liar, a manipulator, and if there was a kernel of truth anywhere in his Senate career, it only serves as an example that the best lies are told around something true.

For entertainment value, the best documentary–ever:

I’d have to go back and do the research again. My best judgment is the “liar, manipulator, etc.” accusations are a result of one of the most successful and sensational smear campaigns in American political history. You have been duped, Doc. And many others, so don’t feel bad.

I’ll go hunt around a bit for the evidence of the above.[/quote]

And who smeared whom in McCarthy’s shoddy grab for fame? Only a scoundrel of his proportion could bring him down: now I know you have never seen McCarthy destroy himself, with his own words and evasions, in front of the Army-McCarthy hearings.

One tends to forget that he had absolutely no clue as to the real spies and traitors in the US. Initially, he thought he needed notoriety, and would gain it by championing submarines (!), until the Wheeling speech caught fire. After that, he had to invent his “secret lists” of malefactors, prominent in his coat pocket, and he never provided evidence in confirmation of his accusations. Not one successful investigation or conviction, just careers ruined.

As for the charge of duped-ness, actually, I feel that I am in very good company indeed, and none of them dupes…Eisenhower, Marshall, Truman, Murrow, the Senate that condemned him. Leave out the judgment of history, thank you very much, i have retained my own, and long ago discarded the ideologic blinders.

27

[quote]pushharder wrote:
I’m not sure if Lattimore has yet been named in the Verona Project.

He was not publicly named by McCarthy but rather leaked by liberal newsman and McCarthy enemy Drew Pearson. Buckley and Bozell in McCarthy and His Enemies, page 54, quoted the Feb. 20, 1950 Congressional Record where a unanimous Senate Committee found Lattimore a “conscious, articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy.”

Arthur Herman, in McCarthy, quoted Lattimore yapping about Stalin’s show trials as “That sounds like democracy to me.”

Louis Budenz, a leader of the Communist Party USA and editor of The Daily Worker, named Lattimore as a Soviet agent. Many other Budenz-named agents were confirmed by the Venona Project. Haynes and Klehr, Venona: Decoding Soviet Espionage in America, 2002, pg. 218.[/quote]

Nope, not Lattimore, not Budenz on that list.

(Lattimore was already known to the subcommittee chaired by Tydings. The point made in the wiki quote on the Tydings Committee: McCarthy had no names or proof, he simply borrowed from a list by one Robert E. Lee. He did name any original names, because he had none; he just used ones known to the committee in order to disguise his lack of real suspects.)

30

[quote]pushharder wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:

As for the charge of duped-ness, actually, I feel that I am in very good company indeed, and none of them dupes…Eisenhower, Marshall, Truman, Murrow, the Senate that condemned him. Leave out the judgment of history, thank you very much, i have retained my own, and long ago discarded the ideologic blinders.

Marshall? You want to use Marshall as a reference? Georgie was incompetent idiot. Shame on you, Doc.

I don’t think much of Truman in this sphere either. The most overrated president of the 20th century besides FDR.[/quote]

Well, I guess you must have higher standards than I— but, Oh, I don’t care for much of Marshall either.

31

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Doc, Venona kinda ruins your rosy little view that McCarthy was the bad guy. It is devastating to the liberals of the 40s and 50s.[/quote]

Well, yes!
And it drives my friends nuts when I point out that, yes, according to the decrypted transcripts, the SDS was on Moscow’s payroll, and Alger Hiss was guilty, and…

But none of that makes McCarthy true, correct, diligent and honest. Does Venona produce silk hose from some swine nether anatomy?

32

[quote]tom63 wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
What the hell are you talking about?

The GOP is out of power.

And you would do well to stay abreast of current events - elected Demcorats are the ones lambasting critics of the health care plan as “un-American” and who were recently collecting information on anyone spreading “fishy” disinformation.

You want a bona fide McCarthy comparison, you got one - you just picked the wrong party.

He seems to not understand this stuff.[/quote]

The Democrats have the majority, but the Republicans are using tactics of Fear, Death Squads, Obama is an illegal alien, He is Muslim, They put Hitlerâ??s mustache on Obama’s picture. They say " He is a socialist". All these lies and I have not dug very deep. Tell me the lies that the Democrats are using to create fear, to gain an unfair advantage over the Republicans

33

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
tom63 wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
What the hell are you talking about?

The GOP is out of power.

And you would do well to stay abreast of current events - elected Demcorats are the ones lambasting critics of the health care plan as “un-American” and who were recently collecting information on anyone spreading “fishy” disinformation.

You want a bona fide McCarthy comparison, you got one - you just picked the wrong party.

He seems to not understand this stuff.

The Democrats have the majority, but the Republicans are using tactics of Fear, Death Squads, Obama is an illegal alien, He is Muslim, They put Hitlerâ??s mustache on Obama’s picture. They say " He is a socialist". All these lies and I have not dug very deep. Tell me the lies that the Democrats are using to create fear, to gain an unfair advantage over the Republicans
[/quote]

How about fuzzy math?

How about calling critiscm unAmerican?

How about promising more than they can deliver?

How about claiming anyone against their plan doesn’t want reform?

How about all the videos about incrementalism toward a single payer?

Not to mention obama isn’t trying to get this plan based on fact, but on his personal goodwill.

34

[quote]Unaware wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
tom63 wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
What the hell are you talking about?

The GOP is out of power.

And you would do well to stay abreast of current events - elected Demcorats are the ones lambasting critics of the health care plan as “un-American” and who were recently collecting information on anyone spreading “fishy” disinformation.

You want a bona fide McCarthy comparison, you got one - you just picked the wrong party.

He seems to not understand this stuff.

The Democrats have the majority, but the Republicans are using tactics of Fear, Death Squads, Obama is an illegal alien, He is Muslim, They put HitlerÃ?¢??s mustache on Obama’s picture. They say " He is a socialist". All these lies and I have not dug very deep. Tell me the lies that the Democrats are using to create fear, to gain an unfair advantage over the Republicans

How about fuzzy math?

How about calling critiscm unAmerican?

How about promising more than they can deliver?

How about claiming anyone against their plan doesn’t want reform?

How about all the videos about incrementalism toward a single payer?

Not to mention obama isn’t trying to get this plan based on fact, but on his personal goodwill.[/quote]

All of those things scare the shit out of me , holy shit fuzzy math has killed millions of people and enslaved millions more , Oh my god you mean some one said un-American , How many died from that one, And Obama working on good will, I do not know but I hear that is very dangerous. There is not one scare tactic that you have mentioned

35

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Unaware wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
tom63 wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
What the hell are you talking about?

The GOP is out of power.

And you would do well to stay abreast of current events - elected Demcorats are the ones lambasting critics of the health care plan as “un-American” and who were recently collecting information on anyone spreading “fishy” disinformation.

You want a bona fide McCarthy comparison, you got one - you just picked the wrong party.

He seems to not understand this stuff.

The Democrats have the majority, but the Republicans are using tactics of Fear, Death Squads, Obama is an illegal alien, He is Muslim, They put HitlerÃ???Ã??Ã?¢??s mustache on Obama’s picture. They say " He is a socialist". All these lies and I have not dug very deep. Tell me the lies that the Democrats are using to create fear, to gain an unfair advantage over the Republicans

How about fuzzy math?

How about calling critiscm unAmerican?

How about promising more than they can deliver?

How about claiming anyone against their plan doesn’t want reform?

How about all the videos about incrementalism toward a single payer?

Not to mention obama isn’t trying to get this plan based on fact, but on his personal goodwill.

All of those things scare the shit out of me , holy shit fuzzy math has killed millions of people and enslaved millions more , Oh my god you mean some one said un-American , How many died from that one, And Obama working on good will, I do not know but I hear that is very dangerous. There is not one scare tactic that you have mentioned[/quote]

Your response makes no sense. On the basis of above what harm has calling obama an illegal alien or muslim done? How many people died because someone mentioned “death squads”?

The things I mentioned don’t scare you becuase you do not understand economics. You only see what is seen, not what is unseen.

Fuzzy math used by the government is one of the biggest threats to American Prosperity.

Do you want a health care bill passed because its a good bill thats going to fix the problem, or because people like obama and will do what he says? If the bill is really going to help why doesn’t he argue on the facts, with numbers, with how the policy will impact the current system? Why does he choose to use the just trust me argument?

And you’re right they aren’t scare tactics, they’re worse, they’re ignorance tactics. They use what people don’t understand and exploit it.

P.S.: What about them trying to ram it through congress before August becuase if we didn’t we would be putting America’s future in jeapordy. Thats not a scare tactic?

36

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
tom63 wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
What the hell are you talking about?

The GOP is out of power.

And you would do well to stay abreast of current events - elected Demcorats are the ones lambasting critics of the health care plan as “un-American” and who were recently collecting information on anyone spreading “fishy” disinformation.

You want a bona fide McCarthy comparison, you got one - you just picked the wrong party.

He seems to not understand this stuff.

The Democrats have the majority, but the Republicans are using tactics of Fear, Death Squads, Obama is an illegal alien, He is Muslim, They put Hitlerâ??s mustache on Obama’s picture. They say " He is a socialist". All these lies and I have not dug very deep. Tell me the lies that the Democrats are using to create fear, to gain an unfair advantage over the Republicans
[/quote]

Didn’t seem to bug you the past 2 or 3 years…

37

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
tom63 wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
What the hell are you talking about?

The GOP is out of power.

And you would do well to stay abreast of current events - elected Demcorats are the ones lambasting critics of the health care plan as “un-American” and who were recently collecting information on anyone spreading “fishy” disinformation.

You want a bona fide McCarthy comparison, you got one - you just picked the wrong party.

He seems to not understand this stuff.

The Democrats have the majority, but the Republicans are using tactics of Fear, Death Squads, Obama is an illegal alien, He is Muslim, They put HitlerÃ?¢??s mustache on Obama’s picture. They say " He is a socialist". All these lies and I have not dug very deep. Tell me the lies that the Democrats are using to create fear, to gain an unfair advantage over the Republicans

Didn’t seem to bug you the past 2 or 3 years…[/quote]

The past 8 years of reductio ad Hitlerum by the Left have definitely shifted the goal posts of acceptable political discourse in this country.

38

Can we at least all agree that any and all Hitler/Nazi comparisons have hereby been rendered meaningless?

39

[quote]TBT4ver wrote:
Can we at least all agree that any and all Hitler/Nazi comparisons have hereby been rendered meaningless?[/quote]

Nope. Not until someone I support wins. Then, it should be off limits. Well, at least for his term(s).

40

[quote]TBT4ver wrote:
Can we at least all agree that any and all Hitler/Nazi comparisons have hereby been rendered meaningless?[/quote]

Actually, the left is more Nazi like. Hitler was not a conservative, he was a socialist. What the left promotes is socialism. therefore left= Nazis more than right equals Nazis.

The problem is the left equates being a big meanie pants with Nazism. so Republican = big meanie pants who wants to kill minorities, enslave women, hang homos, and eat the poor = Nazis.

Even though their practices more closely resemble or are socialism. Check out the Nazi gun control law and our gun control law of 1968. Read the side by side translations. and you will find our left copied a Nazi law almost verbatim.