Jihad In the Hadith

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message507955/pg1

Jesus was a Pleiadian.

“At about 10 A.D.; the last Pleiadian leader called Plejas left Earth for good, because Pleiadians finally achieved peace back home in the Pleiades. They felt it was time for humans to evolve on their own. Before leaving Earth, the Pleiadians left a spiritual leader called Jmmanuel, who later was known as Jesus. Jmmanuel was a very evolved soul, whose father was Gabriel of the Pleiades system and Mary who was of Lyran descent.”

[/quote]

Wow, ancient astronaut stuff! Cool. Interesting stuff: I read the history of the ancient Chinese gods, and back in their ancient past, different gods showed them how to do different things. Example: one taught warfare, one taught artwork, one taught writing, ect.

I just finished reading The Book of Enoch from the Apocrypha and it says a similar thing about devils teaching mankind different things sort of like the example above from Chinese mythology.

You would never know this from reading The Bible because it was not chosen as one of the divinely inspired books.

Now what if the devils from The Book of Enoch, and the gods from the ancient Chinese myths were acually . . .

Ancient Spacemen?

I don’t believe it, but it’s funny how the myths mirror one another.

82

[quote]Sifu wrote:
When the Christian bible was being assembled there was a school of thought that said the old tstament did not belong in it. Being as it was the old religion of the Jews. The only purpose the old testament serves is to show the messed up mentality that Jesus had to contend with.

So muslims do have a point saying that the bible is altered. The Gnostic bible contained over seventy gospels, the most important of which is the gospel of Mary Magdalene who was Jesus foremost disciple. The reason why Mary Magdalene was Jesus foremost disciple is because she was the one who truly understood the more esoteric aspects of Jesus’ teaching which were all about peace.

Those passages the Beowolf quoted show that Mohammad took his ideas not only form Jesus and the new testament but also from the old testament. That is why I feel that islam represents a giant step backwards away from what Jesus was teaching. [/quote]

I could quote passages where Jesus specifically states that he did not come to earth to refute any Old Testament laws. He says in the words of two books that he is here to add to the covenant, not replace it. But those can be ignored (and usually are).

Regardless, ever read Revelations? There are plenty of disgusting passages in the New Testament.

Yes, Jesus was a pacifist. Jesus’s historical existence is also in serious question, where as Mohammed’s is not.

And again, Islam has most certainly taken a giant step back. However, it is my opinion that Islam itself is not the problem. It’s the conditions of the nations in which Islam exists that are the problem. Fix the nations and you’ll fix the interpretation of the Koran.

Christianity mostly certainly is a proper parallel. It originally had a very strict, literal interpretation, and as civilization set in, people loosened their interpretations up a bit (except in the American South).

I know plenty of Muslims who don’t believe Mohamed is or was the “perfect Muslim”. To many, he is simply a man who heard the words of Allah, and wrote em down.

To pretend that the “interpretation” of Islam you’ve heard spouted by radical imams being broadcasted on youtube and CNN is somehow representative of all of Islam is as stupid as assuming Al Sharpton speaks for all black people.

83

Actually, he said he came to fulfill the Law:

Mainstream Christian though has long maintained that Jesus fulfilled the typological purpose of Israel, thus the Levitical civil laws were fulfilled and there is no longer a need for them.

Can you name any that mandate open-ended warfare against unbelievers for their disbelief?

If that’s the case, what is the mainstream Islamic understanding of jihad that has been co-opted by extremists? Who are some representative Islamic jurists I might read to understand this view better?

84

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Yes, Jesus was a pacifist. [/quote]

Ding! Ding! Ding! And to be a Christian is to be Christ like. Though I’m not sure it’s safe to say using violence as a last resort to defend the weak is sinful. But yes, it’s obvious that Jesus (and don’t forget the apostles) practiced non-violence to spread the message.

So, while you do bring up the Old testament, you forget to mention that Christ himself fullfills the law. He completes it. And like you admit, it’s a non-violent walk of faith to be truly Christ-like (I.E. Christian.) Note also, Christians aren’t called to Abraham-like, Moses-like, or even King David-like. We’re aiming higher than that.

Unfortunately, to emulate Mohammed? Not so peaceful. When you can find something talking about Christ and his Apostles having hundreds beheaded in a trench, I’ll listen.

85

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Yes, Jesus was a pacifist.

Ding! Ding! Ding! And to be a Christian is to be Christ like. Though I’m not sure it’s safe to say using violence as a last resort to defend the weak is sinful. But yes, it’s obvious that Jesus (and don’t forget the apostles) practiced non-violence to spread the message.

So, while you do bring up the Old testament, you forget to mention that Christ himself fullfills the law. He completes it. And like you admit, it’s a non-violent walk of faith to be truly Christ-like (I.E. Christian.) Note also, Christians aren’t called to Abraham-like, Moses-like, or even King David-like. We’re aiming higher than that.

Unfortunately, to emulate Mohammed? Not so peaceful. When you can find something talking about Christ and his Apostles having hundreds beheaded in a trench, I’ll listen.[/quote]

I’ve met a lot of Muslims. Not one agrees that to be Muslim is to “Mohamed-like”. They all agree that to be Muslim is to follow to word of the Koran as best you can (just as Christians follow the bible; not to the letter (except in the US South) and allegorically) and to follow the five pillars. Mohammed, UNLIKE Jesus, is not what Islam worships.

Jesus is to Christianity what ALLAH is to Islam.

86

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Yes, Jesus was a pacifist.

Ding! Ding! Ding! And to be a Christian is to be Christ like. Though I’m not sure it’s safe to say using violence as a last resort to defend the weak is sinful. But yes, it’s obvious that Jesus (and don’t forget the apostles) practiced non-violence to spread the message.

So, while you do bring up the Old testament, you forget to mention that Christ himself fullfills the law. He completes it. And like you admit, it’s a non-violent walk of faith to be truly Christ-like (I.E. Christian.) Note also, Christians aren’t called to Abraham-like, Moses-like, or even King David-like. We’re aiming higher than that.

Unfortunately, to emulate Mohammed? Not so peaceful. When you can find something talking about Christ and his Apostles having hundreds beheaded in a trench, I’ll listen.

I’ve met a lot of Muslims. Not one agrees that to be Muslim is to “Mohamed-like”. They all agree that to be Muslim is to follow to word of the Koran as best you can (just as Christians follow the bible; not to the letter (except in the US South) and allegorically) and to follow the five pillars. Mohammed, UNLIKE Jesus, is not what Islam worships.

Jesus is to Christianity what ALLAH is to Islam.
[/quote]

Just curious to those who are better read in Islam, wouldn’t Jesus be more of a role model since he is considered without sin etc?

Edit; more of a role model than Mohammed I mean

88

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Yes, Jesus was a pacifist.

Ding! Ding! Ding! And to be a Christian is to be Christ like. Though I’m not sure it’s safe to say using violence as a last resort to defend the weak is sinful. But yes, it’s obvious that Jesus (and don’t forget the apostles) practiced non-violence to spread the message.

So, while you do bring up the Old testament, you forget to mention that Christ himself fullfills the law. He completes it. And like you admit, it’s a non-violent walk of faith to be truly Christ-like (I.E. Christian.) Note also, Christians aren’t called to Abraham-like, Moses-like, or even King David-like. We’re aiming higher than that.

Unfortunately, to emulate Mohammed? Not so peaceful. When you can find something talking about Christ and his Apostles having hundreds beheaded in a trench, I’ll listen.

I’ve met a lot of Muslims. Not one agrees that to be Muslim is to “Mohamed-like”. They all agree that to be Muslim is to follow to word of the Koran as best you can (just as Christians follow the bible; not to the letter (except in the US South) and allegorically) and to follow the five pillars. Mohammed, UNLIKE Jesus, is not what Islam worships.

Jesus is to Christianity what ALLAH is to Islam.
[/quote]

Christianity is not a works-based religion. To be sure, there are commands in the Old and New Testaments, but at its core, Christianity is something to be believed. We believe in what Christ has done. The Gospels leave no doubt of this, as they all climax with Jesus’ death on the cross for the sins of many. You speak as someone with no familiarity with the Bible at all.

You mentioned the five pillars of Islam. Jihad is one of those pillars. If I am to believe that jihad is not a violent struggle against disbelievers, I would require proof that demonstrates that at least some of the Sunni juridical traditions affirm a peaceful jihad (i.e. inner spiritual struggle) ALONE.

89

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
You mentioned the five pillars of Islam. Jihad is one of those pillars. If I am to believe that jihad is not a violent struggle against disbelievers, I would require proof that demonstrates that at least some of the Sunni juridical traditions affirm a peaceful jihad (i.e. inner spiritual struggle) ALONE. [/quote]

Jihad is not one of the five Sunni pillars. The five pillars are shahadah [belief in Allah and Muhammad as his messenger], salah [prayer], zakat [charity], sawm [fasting during Ramadan], and hajj [the pilgrimage].

90

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
…
[/quote]

Bravo!

91

[quote]will to power wrote:
Just curious to those who are better read in Islam, wouldn’t Jesus be more of a role model since he is considered without sin etc?

Edit; more of a role model than Mohammed I mean[/quote]

Well, you can’t really ask people to emulate somebody who’s chilling out in the Heavens. The Quran speaks of Jesus extensively, but it still was nowhere near a detailed account. Sure, they could have relied on what other people have written about him, but who’s to say that what reached them from that (let’s face it, comparatively obscure) era was not altered or that those scribs were not politically-motivated? Mohamed was right there in front of the fresh Muslims’ eyes.

The essence behind Islam is achieving a balance between the earthly and the spiritual. Obviously, shooting to emulate Jesus can lead to some excesses. If you step in the gym hoping to achieve Superman-like strength you might be seriously disappointed. In fact, most people would not even give it a try. And the ones that do might end up overworking their body and get severe joint problems in their 20s. And of course, passively surrendering yourself to crucification when you did nothing wrong is not in the best interest of Humanity. If everyone emulated that example, the Earth will be exclusively inhabited by bullies.

Excess in prayer was condemned by Mohamed (as was excess in any of the sensual or material things) because human nature will eventually catch up on you.

92

[quote]lixy wrote:
Well, you can’t really ask people to emulate somebody who’s chilling out in the Heavens. The Quran speaks of Jesus extensively, but it still was nowhere near a detailed account. Sure, they could have relied on what other people have written about him, but who’s to say that what reached them from that (let’s face it, comparatively obscure) era was not altered or that those scribs were not politically-motivated? Mohamed was right there in front of the fresh Muslims’ eyes.

The essence behind Islam is achieving a balance between the earthly and the spiritual. Obviously, shooting to emulate Jesus can lead to some excesses. If you step in the gym hoping to achieve Superman-like strength you might be seriously disappointed. In fact, most people would not even give it a try. And the ones that do might end up overworking their body and get severe joint problems in their 20s. And of course, passively surrendering yourself to crucification when you did nothing wrong is not in the best interest of Humanity. If everyone emulated that example, the Earth will be exclusively inhabited by bullies.

Excess in prayer was condemned by Mohamed (as was excess in any of the sensual or material things) because human nature will eventually catch up on you.
[/quote]

Thanks

93

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Yes, Jesus was a pacifist.

Ding! Ding! Ding! And to be a Christian is to be Christ like. Though I’m not sure it’s safe to say using violence as a last resort to defend the weak is sinful. But yes, it’s obvious that Jesus (and don’t forget the apostles) practiced non-violence to spread the message.

So, while you do bring up the Old testament, you forget to mention that Christ himself fullfills the law. He completes it. And like you admit, it’s a non-violent walk of faith to be truly Christ-like (I.E. Christian.) Note also, Christians aren’t called to Abraham-like, Moses-like, or even King David-like. We’re aiming higher than that.

Unfortunately, to emulate Mohammed? Not so peaceful. When you can find something talking about Christ and his Apostles having hundreds beheaded in a trench, I’ll listen.

I’ve met a lot of Muslims. Not one agrees that to be Muslim is to “Mohamed-like”. They all agree that to be Muslim is to follow to word of the Koran as best you can (just as Christians follow the bible; not to the letter (except in the US South) and allegorically) and to follow the five pillars. Mohammed, UNLIKE Jesus, is not what Islam worships.

Jesus is to Christianity what ALLAH is to Islam.
[/quote]

You misunderstand. I made no claim that muslims worship Mohammed as God. But, he is the ideal man.

94

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Yes, Jesus was a pacifist.

Ding! Ding! Ding! And to be a Christian is to be Christ like. Though I’m not sure it’s safe to say using violence as a last resort to defend the weak is sinful. But yes, it’s obvious that Jesus (and don’t forget the apostles) practiced non-violence to spread the message.

So, while you do bring up the Old testament, you forget to mention that Christ himself fullfills the law. He completes it. And like you admit, it’s a non-violent walk of faith to be truly Christ-like (I.E. Christian.) Note also, Christians aren’t called to Abraham-like, Moses-like, or even King David-like. We’re aiming higher than that.

Unfortunately, to emulate Mohammed? Not so peaceful. When you can find something talking about Christ and his Apostles having hundreds beheaded in a trench, I’ll listen.

I’ve met a lot of Muslims. Not one agrees that to be Muslim is to “Mohamed-like”. They all agree that to be Muslim is to follow to word of the Koran as best you can (just as Christians follow the bible; not to the letter (except in the US South) and allegorically) and to follow the five pillars. Mohammed, UNLIKE Jesus, is not what Islam worships.

Jesus is to Christianity what ALLAH is to Islam.
[/quote]

In fact Jesus is to his mother Mary what the Qu´ran is to Mohammed.

Both Mary and Mohammed were vessels for the word of God.

95

[quote]Chushin wrote:
…
[/quote]

You may not know it, but the first major foreign newspaper to reproduce the Jyllands-posten cartoons was the Egyptian. People shook their heads in discontent and that was it. Keep in mind that the publication came a day after the US bombings of Ramadi that killed 70 people. Fast forward a week, while Iran is under heavy criticism for daring to use their inalienable right to enrich uranium, Ahmadinejad makes his infamous speech where he references the Ayatollah’s words about the Israeli Zionist regime vanishing from the pages of history as the Soviets did. The general outrageous is instantaneous, and Washington rolls the drum of war while the causalities of the war on Iraq are a fresh wound in the whole Islamic world. Remember that the green dots you see on CNN’s coverage of the war on Iraq are depicted in their vivid red consequences in the Arab world.

If anyone had any doubt prior to that, it has now dissipated. The Muslim world is under attack by the West, be it with collective punishment, Tomahawks or the media…or at least, that’s how it was perceived. Keep in mind that all this is one month after Mubarak won the presidential elections yet again in a country that he kept under state of emergency for 28 years now. Needless to say that everybody knows the man would be toast without Washington injecting billions of dollar into his brutal police state.

For a couple of months, the only form of protest was a couple of thousand Muslims marched peacefully in Copenhagen asking from the press to have the common sense to not exacerbate the situation. Ambassadors from majority-Muslim countries request to meet with the Danish PM, with the latter refuses categorically. A decision he - understandably - will be heavily criticized for within the Danish diplomatic community. I don’t recall the number, but about a couple of dozens former Danish ambassadors smack him hard. The Council of Europe and a UN Special Rapporteur criticize the Danish government as well.

Worth noting that all this is happening while Sarkozy promises to karcherize the “scum” after a couple of boys (Zyed and Bouna, who else?) get electrocuted because the police was chasing them for délit de facies (the crime of looking different - most notably Arab!). Not to mention the everlasting trouble in the Occupied Territories.

Weeks later, and in that explosive climate, a cunning Egyptian politician close to the Wahabis decides to exploit the situation, using propaganda techniques. The cartoons become a focal point in Friday mosques’ prayers. When the war on Iraq were already largely seen as another crusade, those gratuitous insults against the last prophet are the last straw. All hell breaks loose, starting from the Pakistani hills and working their way down to the streets of Gaza and Beirut. Every political entity wants a piece of the cake, and starts using the case to further their own agenda.

The rest is history.

96

[quote]lixy wrote:
And of course, passively surrendering yourself to crucification when you did nothing wrong is not in the best interest of Humanity. [/quote]

Dude, learn something about the beliefs of Christianity before making this statement. According to Christians, Jesus was the “Lamb of God”. Any idea what that means? He did not commit suicide. He died to take away the sins of the world.

And as far as emulating Jesus or not emulating Jesus…I think the whole “He died for my sins” is a cop out. If you do not follow his example and at least try to live like he did, then what’s the point of the rest of his life (other than him dying)?

98

[quote] wrote:
BTW, you missed the question about Muslims emphasizing the mere motal over the miraculous, sin-free guy.
[/quote]

In the Bible, does Jesus ever claim to be sin-free, or the son of God, or any of this? Anyone know?

Where’s it say in the Bible that Mary was also born without sin?

If Jesus had brothers and sisters, would these people be born without sin also?

If not, what’s the point of Mary having no sin?

If God could just “make” Mary have no sin (she was not divinely concieved) couldn’t he just “make” everyone have no sin, without sending his son, ect…

99

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Dude, learn something about the beliefs of Christianity before making this statement. [/quote]

Says the guys who lectures others on what Muslims believe or don’t believe.

Will2P asked why Muslims do not emulate Jesus. I explained it to him. It has nothing to do with what Christians, Jews or Scientologist believe.

Yeah, I know. Although I don’t necessarily agree with the challenge to causality. How does someone dying 20 centuries ago take away contemporary sins? Maybe you could clear that up.

Dunno. What I do know, is that most people would not want to emulate someone who lets himself get crucified without any resistance.

One more thing I could never wrap my head around is how one could emulate a divinity. Care to help?

100

[quote]Chushin wrote:
And those STILL trying to kill the cartoonist? Just a small number of “lunatics?” [/quote]

You think?

Go to your local mosque and ask around. I’m serious here. Unless you bother to interact with Muslims, you will keep associating every Muslim with Gazans or whatever other violence hotbed is making the news that day.

I started that post by saying “I’m not sure I get the question.”

Given the time and effort I put into addressing your posts, the least I expect from you is to make your “question” less ambiguous.

I’m hoping that’s not too much to ask.