Jihad In the Hadith

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
63

Ahh. So you’re probably from Iraq or the oil producing part of Saudi? I know there are some Shia tribes in Yemen also.

The Shia have developed two schools of jurisprudence themselves. If your family understands jihad differently than these Islamists, more power to them. It is certainly a minority interpretation, especially amongst Sunnis.

Actually, Christianity is the fastest growing religion because of the African and Chinese church and much of the rest of the global south.

To answer your question, it’s quite simple. If you have to pay jizyah to keep your life under Islamic rule, there is a definite monetary and social benefit to be gained from converting. You no longer have to give an arbitrary amount of your income to the Caliph, neither do you have to shave the front part of your head, wear special clothing, ride only a donkey (instead of a horse), provide lodging for Muslims for at least three days,…

Why is it that the number of Muslims in the world gets inflated by roughly 100 million every six months or so?

64

[quote]Chushin wrote:
I may have mispoken, as I don’t know exactly where the quote being discussed came from, or for that matter, the names of all the Islamic holy texts. [/quote]

“Mispoken” would imply that you presented half of what was expected. You probably mean “misspoken.” *

And just so we’re clear, there is, always have been, and always will be one and only Islamic Holy Text: The Quran.

So asking a question is now “attitude”? What’s the matter with you? Feeling the heat from Okinawa?

Don’t read too much into posts. I’ve read the Quran more times than I can count, but it doesn’t mean I know it by heart. I was seriously asking what passage referred to Mohamed in those terms as I couldn’t think of any of the top of my head. It is a lengthy Text, you know.

I am not offended that you make gratuitous wisecracks and take cheap shots at my faith, but when I ask an honest question you accuse me of “adding in the attitude”. This is insane!

  • That’s well-deserved attitude!
66

[quote]Chushin wrote:
This intrigues me. Why on earth would Muslims want to emphasize the importance of a “mere man” over that of a “miraculously-born and free-of-sin” being?
[/quote]

Muslims see Jesus as a prophet, not as the Messiah. If they thought he was the Messiah, they would be Christians.

67

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
They’re Shia.

Ahh. So you’re probably from Iraq or the oil producing part of Saudi? I know there are some Shia tribes in Yemen also.

The Shia have developed two schools of jurisprudence themselves. If your family understands jihad differently than these Islamists, more power to them. It is certainly a minority interpretation, especially amongst Sunnis.
[/quote]

Actually, I’m from Lebanon. I can’t speak for Sunnies, and I know it’s become cliche to talk about the peaceful majority but I think you’ll find a lot more Shia at least interpret jihad in this manner than are often given credit for. Even in areas where this is not the case provide them with security and liberty and you they’ll start interpreting it this way as well, I assure you.

68

[quote]hedo wrote:
lixy wrote:
hedo wrote:
5. Reformation

What part of essentially don’t you understand?

I understand that “essentially” you are a douchebag and remain befuddled. I understand your Cyber Jihad is a lost cause on T-Nation. Kind of like AQ in Iraq.

Do you understand that?

[/quote]

Ditto.
And I add:

  1. The Enlightenment.
69

[quote]Chushin wrote:
Lixy,

Not that you care at all, but I’m very dissapointed that you have taken this attitude.

Almost always you have more knowledge and experience with Islam than anyone here, which makes for some less than balanced discussion.

But now that someone seems to have some ability to meet you on even footing, you refuse to debate him? If he’s wrong, please SHOW us that.

I was looking forward to hearing both sides of the argument, and likely learning some things.

But it seems you have chosen to bail out?[/quote]

How do you propose I deal with someone who throws “you’re lying” in my face?

How can I possibly argue with a person who admittedly is “not interested in interpreting the Qur’an” and is “interested in how MUSLIMS interpret it”, and at the same time call them liars for offering their interpretation?

How am I supposed to talk to someone who calls the prophet Mohamed a Jew-hater?

How can you reason with someone who lumps all Albanians and say that they all “deserved to be kicked out of Kosovo for illegally immigrating there in the first place.”?

I personally don’t see any good coming out of this discussion. If you were looking forward to it, tough luck. I already blasphemed by saying that Jesus had shortcomings, and I am pretty certain I might have alienated some people here because of that. In normal circumstances, I wouldn’t censor myself or care that much about it, because I believe in a universal freedom of speech. But when the interlocutor calls me a liar, I’d rather do something else with my free time than walk into prophet-bashing territory for the sake of arguing with somebody who can’t even assume good faith.

Here’s the first clue to tell that the “Dude” don’t know squat about Islam: The guy claims that the doors of ijtihad are closed. Essentially, that’s a wildcard that he’ll invoke everytime I say something that contradicts his “view”. Or maybe I should make it clearer for you. Ijtihad is the process of making a legal decision by independent interpretation of the legal sources, the Qur’an and the Sunnah. Critical thinking, linguistic abilities and education in general is a central component of the message of Mohamed. He didn’t want, Islam to fall into a Church-like system, after his death, where one guy dressed in gold preaches and the others follow. PRCalDude claims that some “guy dressed in gold”, not only has the ability to tell me what to believe, but has gone as far as write it down and forbade all future interpretation. That is absolute rubbish and is in contradiction with the tenets of Islam. When I wake up in the morning, I profess the unicity and divinity of God and that Mohamed is his prophet, not my local mosque’s imam, not the self-appointed amir al-mu’mineen (Arab monachs have a tendency to take and fight over the title of “commendatory of believers”), not some Persian scholar who lived a millenia ago, not al-Zawahiri nor any other man.

PRCalDude isn’t interested in dialoging. Else, the least he could have is extend the “good faith” courtesy olive branch I presented him with twice. He is not interested in anything but demonize Islam, its prophet and its adepts. I consider myself a reasonable fellow, and would never adopt a faith that condones gratuitous violence, hatred or any of the other crap he’s spewing.

There aren’t many choices here:

  • Either I’m utterly and completely clueless about my religion,

  • Or I am aware that Islam is about violence and hatred but am lying to y’all (for some reason),

  • Or PRCalDude is doing what Al-Qaeda and their ilk thrive on: take verses out of context and twist them to advance an agenda.

You pick.

70

[quote]pat wrote:
Beowolf wrote:

Now wait… someone will say we’re not talking about Christianity, we’re talking about Islam.

If Islam is inherently evil, so is Christianity. Get over it.

That’s all old testament and hence, Judaism.[/quote]

With respect, Pat, that is pickings from a text redacted before 500 BC, for various obscure political reasons, lost on us now. Judaism did not end there, just as Christianity most certainly did not end there.
As for Islam…?

71

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Chushin wrote:
This intrigues me. Why on earth would Muslims want to emphasize the importance of a “mere man” over that of a “miraculously-born and free-of-sin” being?

Muslims see Jesus as a prophet, not as the Messiah. If they thought he was the Messiah, they would be Christians.[/quote]

Boy, are you guys ignorant!

Jesus is called the Messiah in the Quran.

73

Actually, there’s 4 different schools of Sunni jurisprudence, and yes, the gates of ijtihad are closed since roughly 13-1400 AD. You know full well that any interpretation you make is yours alone and doesn’t carry any authority amongst the rest of Islamic juridical traditions that closed the book on the issue of jihad a long time ago. Ibn Taymiyya, a 14th century Hanbali jurist (and favorite of Osama bin Laden), stated:

As late as 1991, Al-Azhar University, the highest authority of Shafi’i jurisprudence, declared the 'Umdat al-Salik (available in English as The Reliance of the Traveller) to conform to the practice and faith of the orthodox Sunni community. It devotes “lesser jihad” as war against non-Muslims to establish religion:

So instead of playing “bamboozle the kuffar”, why don’t you spend time convincing the four schools of Sunni jurisprudence to redefine jihad to be spiritual only, so that lesser jihad ceases to be a lofty goal of Muslims everywhere?

[quote]Jesus is called the Messiah in the Quran.
[/quote]

Yes, but as you well know, Jesus is defined completely differently in Islam. Christians believe Jesus is God come in the flesh. Muslims say this is shirk, the worst of sins - ascribing a son to Allah. Shirk is a reason to wage jihad.

74

[quote]lixy wrote:

PRCalDude isn’t interested in dialoging. Else, the least he could have is extend the “good faith” courtesy olive branch I presented him with twice. He is not interested in anything but demonize Islam, its prophet and its adepts. I consider myself a reasonable fellow, and would never adopt a faith that condones gratuitous violence, hatred or any of the other crap he’s spewing.[/quote]

More fantastic irony.

I read it twice just to make sure Lixy was the author.

75

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
lixy wrote:

PRCalDude isn’t interested in dialoging. Else, the least he could have is extend the “good faith” courtesy olive branch I presented him with twice. He is not interested in anything but demonize Islam, its prophet and its adepts. I consider myself a reasonable fellow, and would never adopt a faith that condones gratuitous violence, hatred or any of the other crap he’s spewing.

More fantastic irony.

I read it twice just to make sure Lixy was the author.

[/quote]

Irony is what we see; self-serving lies is what Lixy does.

76

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
lixy wrote:

PRCalDude isn’t interested in dialoging. Else, the least he could have is extend the “good faith” courtesy olive branch I presented him with twice. He is not interested in anything but demonize Islam, its prophet and its adepts. I consider myself a reasonable fellow, and would never adopt a faith that condones gratuitous violence, hatred or any of the other crap he’s spewing.

More fantastic irony.

I read it twice just to make sure Lixy was the author. [/quote]

Adopting Zap’s one-liners, I see.

I will assume that you are referring to my incessant criticism of US foreign policy, its military presence on every corner of the globe, its renowned secret service meddling in the internal affairs of sovereign states and its infamous wars of aggression (which you may know as “pre-emptive” wars). I understand that I anger a lot of “patriotic” Americans. And the fact that military personnel is overrepresented on this site doesn’t help either.

There is a fundamental difference between me and that PRCalDude. My criticism of American policy is meant to make Americans realize how their actions are perceived by the people on the receiving end of said policy, in the hope that they use their (at least, theoretical) ability to influence the politicians through the ballot. As a matter of fact, a substantial portion of Americans seem to be engaging in that very thing, as demonstrated by the regular protest, massive disapproval of the system (is there any democracy in the world where the presidential approval rate is lower than that of your current president?) and enthusiastic (dare I say fervent?) support behind the candidates promising a break with the current policy.

The “Dude” on the other hand, bashes the god, Holy Text, prophet, and adepts of the second largest religious group on the planet. It can’t possibly be for no other reason than to spread hatred.

You don’t like me, and I can live with that. I know that the majority here would never see any irony in the post above. As for you, I do find your positions and some of your arguments challenging, and am also convinced that you debate in good faith. Those are more than enough good reasons to keep the discussion open. On a side note, I can’t for the life of me pinpoint what made you decide that I am not here in good faith. Did I ever call you a liar or anything of the sort?

77

[quote]lixy wrote:

Adopting Zap’s one-liners, I see.[/quote]

Nope, just making an observation that doesn’t require many words.

No, interestingly - that isn’t it. It isn’t your opinion - which is fairly typical left-wing wannabe radical - it is your inability to engage in good faith dialogue. Hence, the irony claim.

Nonsense - he is bringing a hard look into a topic, and you may not like what he says, but if you want to be able to bring that “hard look” into American foreign policy, he gets to do the same with a religion and culture that deserves a light shined into it without the guardrails of predictable political correctness.

Really? Want to put that to a vote?

It isn’t personal - poster after poster here comments on your lack of good faith - how you can’t and won’t meet arguments on the merits, how you flake out when you get pinned down, how you ignore rational conclusions when they don’t fit your ideological endpoint. You continue to recite facts that don’t hold water and push “arguments” that don’t even pass the smell test - and when you get called on them, you evaporate, or you start whining.

Bad faith, Lixy - you exemplify it on these threads. And when you complain that other people engage in it, you look like a self-serving idiot.

We’ve had many debates between us, and every one dissolves into you being completely immune to rational debate - and it has nothing to do with whether you agree with me or not. I don’t care about that. No, it is a matter of bad faith - if I debate on the merits, I expect you to as well. And you disappoint every time, because to be frank, you aren’t very good at it, and I suspect you aren’t used to being challenged. As such, when you do get challenged, you start parroting an ideological script.

And, you piously suggest you “have no idea what I am talking about w/r/t bad faith” - c’mon, Lixy. How many articles have you posted to support your point that you never read, only to have them not support your point after one of us does? You know it - and every time someone brings it up, you conveniently never address it.

It’s not your opinions I have a problem with - it is your inability to debate in good faith or really all that well (recall your bizarre forays into trying to lecture us all on “strawmen” when it was clear you had no idea what the hell you were talking about). It pervades your posts, and you always slink into immaturity when someone challenges you.

That makes you, essentially, no fun - and worthy of little respect.

78

This describes almost every Muslim I’ve had the bad fortune of “dialoguing” with, even the “moderates.”

The “moderates” will usually tell you what they personally believe and pass it off like it cares any weight in schools of Sunni and Shia jurisprudence. They tell a series of half-truths to “bamboozle the kuffar” knowing all along what mainstream Islam teaches.

79

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message507955/pg1

Jesus was a Pleiadian.

“At about 10 A.D.; the last Pleiadian leader called Plejas left Earth for good, because Pleiadians finally achieved peace back home in the Pleiades. They felt it was time for humans to evolve on their own. Before leaving Earth, the Pleiadians left a spiritual leader called Jmmanuel, who later was known as Jesus. Jmmanuel was a very evolved soul, whose father was Gabriel of the Pleiades system and Mary who was of Lyran descent.”

80

[quote]lixy wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Chushin wrote:
This intrigues me. Why on earth would Muslims want to emphasize the importance of a “mere man” over that of a “miraculously-born and free-of-sin” being?

Muslims see Jesus as a prophet, not as the Messiah. If they thought he was the Messiah, they would be Christians.

Boy, are you guys ignorant!

Jesus is called the Messiah in the Quran.

Messiah - Wikipedia [/quote]

Excuse freaking me, I’m not a muslim, Ok? Do you think that Christ died and rose for your sins? If not, then Christ wasn’t the messiah according to what Christians believe.