[quote]lixy wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Dude, learn something about the beliefs of Christianity before making this statement.
Says the guys who lectures others on what Muslims believe or don’t believe.
Will2P asked why Muslims do not emulate Jesus. I explained it to him. It has nothing to do with what Christians, Jews or Scientologist believe.
According to Christians, Jesus was the “Lamb of God”. Any idea what that means? He did not commit suicide. He died to take away the sins of the world.
Yeah, I know. Although I don’t necessarily agree with the challenge to causality. How does someone dying 20 centuries ago take away contemporary sins? Maybe you could clear that up.
And as far as emulating Jesus or not emulating Jesus…I think the whole “He died for my sins” is a cop out. If you do not follow his example and at least try to live like he did, then what’s the point of the rest of his life (other than him dying)?
Dunno. What I do know, is that most people would not want to emulate someone who lets himself get crucified without any resistance.
One more thing I could never wrap my head around is how one could emulate a divinity. Care to help?[/quote]
Ok, fair enough.
As far as help goes, you probably need to talk to someone with more insight than I have on this.
A person who would let himself get crucified without any resistance is a martyr, same as someone who lets himself get blown to bits.
I am glad I read this thread. PRCalDude has schooled lixy to the point that lixy is reduced to whining and quitting.
As one who knows nothing more about Islam than it is the common thread running through most of the trouble in the middle east - I have to say that PRCal came across as more knowledgeable about the religion than anyone in this thread.
Lixy is a liar. She is dishonest in her debating, and when shoved up against the wall when her faith comes into the battle, all of a sudden it is mean.
You misunderstand. I made no claim that muslims worship Mohammed as God. But, he is the ideal man.[/quote]
Did you skip half my post?
Jesus = Ideal in Christianity
Mohamed =/= Jesus
To live as Allah wills them to is the ideal of Muslims. No where in the Koran does it state that Muslims should emulate fully the life of the Prophet. Or, at least, it doesn’t say that in any part I’ve studied. Direct your Koran-textual questions at Lixy, I suppose.
Mohamed was simply the tool Allah used to write the Koran. Period.
It also seems like everyone is forgetting that the golden age of Islam included one of the most tolerant Empires in human history. Certainly much more tolerant than Christian Byzantium or Russia.
You misunderstand. I made no claim that muslims worship Mohammed as God. But, he is the ideal man.
Did you skip half my post?
Jesus = Ideal in Christianity
Mohamed =/= Jesus
To live as Allah wills them to is the ideal of Muslims. No where in the Koran does it state that Muslims should emulate fully the life of the Prophet. Or, at least, it doesn’t say that in any part I’ve studied. Direct your Koran-textual questions at Lixy, I suppose.
Mohamed was simply the tool Allah used to write the Koran. Period.
It also seems like everyone is forgetting that the golden age of Islam included one of the most tolerant Empires in human history. Certainly much more tolerant than Christian Byzantium or Russia.[/quote]
You don’t know enough about the subject matter to make a contribution to the debate. You have been schooled on your lack of knowledge, yet you feel compelled to continue.
I know you hate it when I do this, but - this is one of those times again where you need to sit down and be quiet.
And if this thread is any indication of lixy’s knowledge, I’d not be asking her any tough questions - she has a tendancy to fold up, and start pouting.
Speaking of the Koran, do you know what “Abrogation” means?
Err. No. He most is not viewed as just a tool.
[quote]
It also seems like everyone is forgetting that the golden age of Islam included one of the most tolerant Empires in human history. Certainly much more tolerant than Christian Byzantium or Russia.[/quote]
Volume 4, Book 53, Number 386; Narrated Jubair bin Haiya: Umar {the second Caliph} sent the Muslims to the great countries to fight the pagans. ? When we reached the land of the enemy, the representative of Khosrau {Persia} came out with forty-thousand warriors, and an interpreter got up saying, “Let one of you talk to me!” Al-Mughira replied, ? "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya (i.e. tribute); and our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: "Whoever amongst us is killed (i.e. martyred), shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever amongst us remain alive, shall become your master
Beowolf, if Jesus was such an advocate of the old testament why did the preists at the temple have him crucified for heresy?
In the old testament the punishment for adultary was stoning. Jesus took a stand against stoning. So there Jesus did make a break with the old testament.
Mohammad on the other hand felt that there was nothing like a good old fashioned stoning to make one feel closer to god and brought it back. To this day stoning is an important part of islam, it is even part of the five pillars of islam.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Beowolf, if Jesus was such an advocate of the old testament why did the preists at the temple have him crucified for heresy?
In the old testament the punishment for adultary was stoning. Jesus took a stand against stoning. So there Jesus did make a break with the old testament.
Mohammad on the other hand felt that there was nothing like a good old fashioned stoning to make one feel closer to god and brought it back. To this day stoning is an important part of islam, it is even part of the five pillars of islam. [/quote]
The five pillars of Islam are shahadah [belief in God and Muhammed as messenger], salah [prayer], zakat [charity], sawn [fasting in Ramadan] and hajj [the pilgrimage]. No stoning in the five pillars.
[quote]Beowolf wrote:
It also seems like everyone is forgetting that the golden age of Islam included one of the most tolerant Empires in human history. Certainly much more tolerant than Christian Byzantium or Russia.[/quote]
Not tolernat if you were African, Asian, Turkish, Indian or Christian, I suppose.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Beowolf, if Jesus was such an advocate of the old testament why did the preists at the temple have him crucified for heresy?
In the old testament the punishment for adultary was stoning. Jesus took a stand against stoning. So there Jesus did make a break with the old testament.
Mohammad on the other hand felt that there was nothing like a good old fashioned stoning to make one feel closer to god and brought it back. To this day stoning is an important part of islam, it is even part of the five pillars of islam. [/quote]
If you want to see a stoning, just do a google video search. Key word: “Islamic Stoning” I have seen video some people being stoned by a mob. Not a pretty sight.
[quote]will to power wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
You mentioned the five pillars of Islam. Jihad is one of those pillars. If I am to believe that jihad is not a violent struggle against disbelievers, I would require proof that demonstrates that at least some of the Sunni juridical traditions affirm a peaceful jihad (i.e. inner spiritual struggle) ALONE.
Jihad is not one of the five Sunni pillars. The five pillars are shahadah [belief in Allah and Muhammad as his messenger], salah [prayer], zakat [charity], sawm [fasting during Ramadan], and hajj [the pilgrimage]. [/quote]
Whoops. My bad.
It is very important, though. The “Reliance of the Traveller,” the approved manual of Shafi’i fiqh, devotes quite a bit of space to it. Much of the zakat ends up in the hands of the mujahideen as well. I’ve read plenty of news articles detailing how one Islamic charity or another gets busted for funding terrorism.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
will to power wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
You mentioned the five pillars of Islam. Jihad is one of those pillars. If I am to believe that jihad is not a violent struggle against disbelievers, I would require proof that demonstrates that at least some of the Sunni juridical traditions affirm a peaceful jihad (i.e. inner spiritual struggle) ALONE.
Jihad is not one of the five Sunni pillars. The five pillars are shahadah [belief in Allah and Muhammad as his messenger], salah [prayer], zakat [charity], sawm [fasting during Ramadan], and hajj [the pilgrimage].
Whoops. My bad.
It is very important, though. The “Reliance of the Traveller,” the approved manual of Shafi’i fiqh, devotes quite a bit of space to it. Much of the zakat ends up in the hands of the mujahideen as well. I’ve read plenty of news articles detailing how one Islamic charity or another gets busted for funding terrorism.[/quote]
I would argue that terrorism is a perversion of the concept of military jihad. If you want, I’m sure I can find the relevant passages from the Qur’an to support that.
Christians have always believed that Jesus is God in the flesh. His death on the cross for our sins and resurrection for our justification holds no parallel with the life of Mohammed.
The fact that Muslims like lixy criticize Jesus allowing himself to be crucified, though he was innocent, should be very telling, especially after the significance of that crucifixion was understood. It tells us that the Muslims’ true god is power. Islam, after all, does mean “submission” - submit to the will of Allah and his Prophet, pay jizyah, or die.
There is are plenty of accounts of Jesus’ message being rejected. Jesus did not wage jihad however:
The Samaritans would not submit, you see? But Jesus never waged jihad because he was rejected.
Stoning of the Devil or stoning of the jamarat (Arabic: ramy al-jamar�?t) is part of the annual Islamic Hajj pilgrimage to the holy city of Mecca in Saudi Arabia.
Stoning of the Devil or stoning of the jamarat (Arabic: ramy al-jamar�?t) is part of the annual Islamic Hajj pilgrimage to the holy city of Mecca in Saudi Arabia.[/quote]
Ah, I didn’t realise that. However, it’s meant to represent the struggle with your own internal demons.
This has a more complete comparison of the actions of Mohammed vs. those of Jesus. The information on Mohammed’s actions are taken from the Hadith (Sahih Bukhari) and the Sirah (the biography of Mohammed by Ibn Ishaq), for the most part:
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Beowolf, if Jesus was such an advocate of the old testament why did the preists at the temple have him crucified for heresy?
In the old testament the punishment for adultary was stoning. Jesus took a stand against stoning. So there Jesus did make a break with the old testament.
Mohammad on the other hand felt that there was nothing like a good old fashioned stoning to make one feel closer to god and brought it back. To this day stoning is an important part of islam, it is even part of the five pillars of islam. [/quote]
He was a threat to the power of the old Rabbis. Simple as that.
And that is true, he did take a stand against stoning. I’ll just go ahead and concede the whole old v new testament thing. So I suppose Christians will stop bashing gays now, right? Thats old testament garbage… nothing to do with Christ…
Stoning… part of the five pillars… you’ve lost me.
And for the record, all of my info of the Muslim views of Mohamed are coming from my Muslim friends/classmates (of whom I have 7). The Persian view of him is different than the Egyptian view which is different from the Pakistani view which is different from the Indian view, but they ALL agree he was just a man who heard the voice of God. And they ALL agree that the point of Islam is NOT to emulate Mohamed.
And that is true, he did take a stand against stoning. I’ll just go ahead and concede the whole old v new testament thing. So I suppose Christians will stop bashing gays now, right? Thats old testament garbage… nothing to do with Christ…
[/quote]
This is the ultimate in your display of ignorance. I thought I told you to sit down and shut up. You ignore my advice, and prove your own bigotry.
At some point in your worthless life, you will listen to me.