[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
I’m not interested in interpreting the Qur’an for myself. I don’t find it to be an inspiring document. Quite the opposite, actually. I’m interested in how MUSLIMS interpret it. [/quote]
And yet, you dismiss everything “MUSLIMS” tell you as lies.
I just read the post you made on the Kosovo thread and it’s, hand down, the more bigoted I’ve seen. It’s people like you who give religion a bad name and foster conflicts. You make generalizations that my kid nephew wouldn’t fall for.
[quote]And yet, you dismiss everything “MUSLIMS” tell you as lies.
I just read the post you made on the Kosovo thread and it’s, hand down, the more bigoted I’ve seen. It’s people like you who give religion a bad name and foster conflicts. You make generalizations that my kid nephew wouldn’t fall for.
I’m done with you, “dude”.[/quote]
I doubt you’ll fail to respond to me if I keep addressing you.
I don’t think Muslims only tell me lies. I think Osama bin Ladin and Sayyid Qutb are telling the truth about Islam, as are the other Muslims who declare jihad in the way of Allah.
Since I’m “fostering conflict,” perhaps you can tell me how a reasonable person would respond to an open-ended declaration of war against them for their beliefs - such a declaration as Surahs 9:5, 9:29 etc? Am I fostering conflict by pointing it out to my fellow infidels? Where is the bigotry in bringing to light various Islamic doctrines? Are Muslims themselves bigots when they expound these doctrines to their faithful in the same manner?
[quote]Joe D. wrote:
What about groups such as the Muslim brotherhood that preach a more, bloodthirsty, view of the faith? [/quote]]
What about them?
Where’s your acquaintance from? Is he a British convert? An Indonesian-born Muslim?
If he’s Jordanian or Lebanese, you may understand why he has issues with Israelis.
Well, Arabs are of Semitic heritage themselves. And, statistically speaking, a Muslim is most likely to be Arab. So, you might want to review your terminology.
And no. What you are talking about is not part of either the Quran nor the Mohamedian tradition. Regardless, there are indeed plenty of Imams who preach hatred towards Israel. And given that most Israelis are Jewish, an amalgam ensues.
Here’s a crew that did a thorough job at debunking that myth.
No. A Kafir (plural: Kuffar) is someone who was presented with the Islamic message and refused it.
I thought it wasn’t necessary to present people with Islam anymore:
[quote]
Muslim 19.4292
Ibn ‘Aun reported: I wrote to Nafi’ inquiring from him whether it was necessary to extend (to the disbelievers) an invitation to accept (Islam) before m". ing them in fight. He wrote (in reply) to me that it was necessary in the early days of Islam. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned others. On that very day, he captured Juwairiya bint al-Harith. Nafi’ said that this tradition was related to him by Abdullah b. Umar who (himself) was among the raiding troops.[/quote]
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
I’m not interested in interpreting the Qur’an for myself. I don’t find it to be an inspiring document. Quite the opposite, actually. I’m interested in how MUSLIMS interpret it. [/quote]
Then maybe you should start a thread asking how Muslims and their families interpret the message of Islam.
[quote]Joe D. wrote:
If people want to belive Islam is peaceful and loving, all power to you. I respect that you want to live peaceful lives.
What about groups such as the Muslim brotherhood that preach a more, bloodthirsty, view of the faith?
[/quote]
People who follow them do so because they feel their way of life or their culture is under attack. If they weren’t threatened, they wouldn’t care. You can see this in the different groups methods and principles, their enemies are determined by politics and economic reasons, not really the Qur’an.
The US, Australia, etc were racist towards the Japanese during WWII. It’s for this same reason that Jews are so hated among Arabs right now, Arab nations are in conflict with Israel.
Incidentally, many more Arabs than is probably given credit for on this forum make the distinction between Zionists and Jews.
Edit; oh yeah, and not only are Arabs Semites, but we make up the bulk of Semites, so if you would stop referring to Arabs as anti-Semites that would be great.
[quote]
Edit; oh yeah, and not only are Arabs Semites, but we make up the bulk of Semites, so if you would stop referring to Arabs as anti-Semites that would be great.[/quote]
I didn’t mean to offend your Arab sensibilities. I was just using the term “anti-semite” in the Western sense of it. We’re not used to having a bunch of Arabs living in the West so it will take time to adjust.
That said, since Egypt and Jordan and Syria are the only countries bordering Israel, and since Jordan is 85% Palestinian, and Syria ruled by an Alawite dictator, why to the rest of the Arab countries have a problem with Israel? Have the Jews violated their dhimma by forming their own nation?
Since the gates of ijtihad are closed, I need to look only at how classical jurists interpret the Qur’an, correct? They are authoritative, are they not? Or is Ibn Taymiyya no longer en vogue?
Joe, Mohammad on his death bed did order that all Jews and Christians in the Arabian penninsula be exterminated. You can find a lot of information from former muslims here. http://www.islam-watch.org/index.html
Edit; oh yeah, and not only are Arabs Semites, but we make up the bulk of Semites, so if you would stop referring to Arabs as anti-Semites that would be great.
I didn’t mean to offend your Arab sensibilities. I was just using the term “anti-semite” in the Western sense of it. We’re not used to having a bunch of Arabs living in the West so it will take time to adjust.
That said, since Egypt and Jordan and Syria are the only countries bordering Israel, and since Jordan is 85% Palestinian, and Syria ruled by an Alawite dictator, why to the rest of the Arab countries have a problem with Israel? Have the Jews violated their dhimma by forming their own nation? [/quote]
I wasn’t really offended, it’s just anti-Semite is a very negative phrase that some people use to demonise Arab.
By the way, Lebanon also borders Israel. And the offense is not that they formed their own nation. If the British has given the Jews part of the British Isles to call their own rather than Palestine, no one in the Middle East would give a damn. They care because their is a certain amount of solidarity among Arabs and Muslims. Atrocities committed against your own race always sting more, and are less abstract than when they occur to a people who do not identify with as well.
I’m an atheist, and have no idea what any of that means. However, I do know what my many Muslim family members and friends interpret Islam, which as you said yourself is more important than a literal interpretation. In case you want to know, they interpret it as a religion that is completely peaceful unless attacked, in which case its members should stand together and defend each other.
[quote]I wasn’t really offended, it’s just anti-Semite is a very negative phrase that some people use to demonise Arab.
By the way, Lebanon also borders Israel. And the offense is not that they formed their own nation. If the British has given the Jews part of the British Isles to call their own rather than Palestine, no one in the Middle East would give a damn. They care because their is a certain amount of solidarity among Arabs and Muslims. Atrocities committed against your own race always sting more, and are less abstract than when they occur to a people who do not identify with as well.[/quote]
Wait a minute, how did Palestinians become Arabs, or if they always were Arabs, how did they end up in the Levant? How did Egyptians become Arabs, for that matter? I don’t seem to recall any pharoahs named “Mohammed” or “Abdullah”. Alexander the Great and Ptolemy certainly weren’t Arabs either.
Are they Sunni or Shia? If Sunni, what school of jurisprudence do they hold to? What are the authoritative rulings from that school on jihad?
I wasn't really offended, it's just anti-Semite is a very negative phrase that some people use to demonise Arab.
By the way, Lebanon also borders Israel. And the offense is not that they formed their own nation. If the British has given the Jews part of the British Isles to call their own rather than Palestine, no one in the Middle East would give a damn. They care because their is a certain amount of solidarity among Arabs and Muslims. Atrocities committed against your own race always sting more, and are less abstract than when they occur to a people who do not identify with as well.
Wait a minute, how did Palestinians become Arabs, or if they always were Arabs, how did they end up in the Levant? How did Egyptians become Arabs, for that matter?
[/quote]
Yes, I do consider Palestinian’s Arabs, and as I understand it Egyptians are sort of equally related to Arabs and North African races. However, I note I said Arabs and Muslims. Regardless of details of genomic origins, I was speaking of being culturally the same people.
Don’t let this discourage you from describing any details you think I’ve missed, I do find the topic interesting.
[quote]
I'm an atheist, and have no idea what any of that means. However, I do know what my many Muslim family members and friends interpret Islam, which as you said yourself is more important than a literal interpretation. In case you want to know, they interpret it as a religion that is completely peaceful unless attacked, in which case its members should stand together and defend each other.
Are they Sunni or Shia? If Sunni, what school of jurisprudence do they hold to? What are the authoritative rulings from that school on jihad?[/quote]
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Joe, Mohammad on his death bed did order that all Jews and Christians in the Arabian penninsula be exterminated. [/quote]
Which hole did you pull that from? Your own?
Walk me through the logic; is that the best guarded secret of all times and all Muslims are in cahoots to keep “you” from knowing that?
I personally don’t understand how the message of a man who allegedly exterminates innocents can, not only survive 15 centuries, but be the fastest growing religion with over 1.2 billion adepts.
Indeed. Mohamed was merely a man (albeit a remarkable one).
Jesus’ birth in itself was a miracle and his life, according to the Islamic tradition, was void of all sins.
Lixy,
This intrigues me. Why on earth would Muslims want to emphasize the importance of a “mere man” over that of a “miraculously-born and free-of-sin” being?
That hardly seems to make any sense…[/quote]
I’m not sure I get the question. Mohamed himself emphasized that, and had he not, it would still be obvious to the casual observer. Muslims don’t have to emphasize anything.
Prophets are supposed to deliver the divine message, not overshadow God and become objects of veneration themselves. You can understand why a “miraculously-born and free-of-sin” may seem more appealing and convenient for some than The elusive God in the sky. Mohamed insisted early on that he’s just there to correct the abuse that Jesus’ message suffered. The central and recurring theme in the Quran being that God is One and only, and that the trinity is blasphemy. The fear of being idolized never left Mohamed. It is the reason he was adamant on destroying all pictorial or sculptural representation of him in his lifetime.
It always cracks me up when some idiot claims Mohamed was megalo or hellbent on power and material things (you guessed it, I mean Zap!). Do you know anyone fitting that description who actively destroys ALL pictures and statues of himself?
If I misunderstood the question, rephrase it then.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
2. C’mon. You don’t find it ironic that the Koran says “peace be upon him” and then continues on to talk about how he sneaks up on kills people? It may not be some great insight, but it IS ironic. [/quote]