Jehovah's Witness Q & A

Brother_Chris · December 27, 2010, 9:19pm

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
I believe hell is always self-imposed. It is always the result of vain imaginings. It is the result of morbid thinking.

If God is All, Omnipotent, Loving, then where is this hell? If God is for us, who is against us? Christ has swallowed up all sin in His glory for us. Either you believe this, or you believe in hell.[/quote]

Think about the first punishment. You have 2 perfect people starting out, Adam and Eve. They have no desire to sin, and God gives them one simple rule. Don’t eat from the tree. What does he say will happen if they do? Does he say that they are going to burn in a hell? Does he say they are going to spend eternity “spiritually separated” from God? If God was going to do something like that he would have said it right there in Genesis. So what does He tell them?

Genesis 2:17

“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

The punishment was very clear. They will die if they eat from the tree. And that is what happened.
[/quote]

So basically according to the JW beliefs the worst that can happen to us is that we cease to exist? Thats a neutral punishment because there is no joy nor torment. [/quote]

Yes exactly. Why would God want us to suffer for eternity?[/quote]

He doesn’t. That is why Jesus came. To die for our sins. He took our place by accepting God’s full wrath. However for one to be saved by the Lord one must believe and accept his sacrifice, being born again of the spirit.[/quote]

Interesting point you bring up, “born again of his spirit”. Do you feel it is something that we can achieve or do you think it is something that God bestows upon us? I don’t want to get too off topic. First off, I am going to continue to address the hellfire doctrine, as that is the first question that you asked.
[/quote]

I feel that is something that occurs when we earnestly believe and seek out Christ. I know many people who go to church and partake in communion who then get drunk and go to strip clubs on the weekend. These people (who will remain nameless) are not born again and are not saved, because though they “claim” that Christ is their savior, they do not live the life Christ wants. So to me it is a natural phenomenon when one truly accepts Christ as their savior.[/quote]

Post this in the CQ&A thread.

ZEB · December 28, 2010, 12:04am

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
I believe hell is always self-imposed. It is always the result of vain imaginings. It is the result of morbid thinking.

If God is All, Omnipotent, Loving, then where is this hell? If God is for us, who is against us? Christ has swallowed up all sin in His glory for us. Either you believe this, or you believe in hell.[/quote]

Think about the first punishment. You have 2 perfect people starting out, Adam and Eve. They have no desire to sin, and God gives them one simple rule. Don’t eat from the tree. What does he say will happen if they do? Does he say that they are going to burn in a hell? Does he say they are going to spend eternity “spiritually separated” from God? If God was going to do something like that he would have said it right there in Genesis. So what does He tell them?

Genesis 2:17

“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

The punishment was very clear. They will die if they eat from the tree. And that is what happened.
[/quote]

So basically according to the JW beliefs the worst that can happen to us is that we cease to exist? Thats a neutral punishment because there is no joy nor torment. [/quote]

Yes exactly. Why would God want us to suffer for eternity?[/quote]

That’s why he sent his one and only son Jesus Christ to die in our place.

ZEB · December 28, 2010, 12:09am

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
This passage talks all about hell and how a rich man was sent there and was in torment. So as far as hell being in the Bible it’s there. And anyone who say it’s not is laboring under a very serious false impression.

There are multiple options of meanings behind that passage:

It is a glimpse into a real “hell” with tormenting.
It is figurative speech.

I will discuss why it is the second option tomorrow. Really quite simple.

But if you feel that it is a real hell, it would have to somehow harmonize with scriptures that show that we just go to the ground. You would also have to explain somehow, how Jesus went to hell.[/quote]

This passage doesn’t talk about Hell at all, it talks about Purgatory.[/quote]

Sorry where does it say purgatory?
[/quote]

Did say it says purgatory, says it talks about it.[/quote]

The scripture clearly states “Hades” and it also defines it as “a place of torment”. Are you saying that purgatory is in fact Hades and is a place of torment?
[/quote]

This is the JW’s thread, and I don’t want to hi-jack it. If you want to post that question in the Catholics Q&A I’ll answer it.[/quote]

No I’m good man - The only reason I went down this road was that you made a point to comment on the scripture that I posted which clearly describes hades and punishment. Which was an answer to Honest Lifter.

Tiribulus · December 28, 2010, 12:39am

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:

I feel that is something that occurs when we earnestly believe and seek out Christ. I know many people who go to church and partake in communion who then get drunk and go to strip clubs on the weekend. These people (who will remain nameless) are not born again and are not saved, because though they “claim” that Christ is their savior, they do not live the life Christ wants. So to me it is a natural phenomenon when one truly accepts Christ as their savior.[/quote]
What is your scriptural backing for that idea?[/quote] 1st John 3:4-10 NASB The voices and tenses in the Greek are very significant here.

[quote]4-Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5-You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6-No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7-Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8-the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9-No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10-By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. >>>[/quote]They who live polite peaceful lives with sin and carnality have yet to meet the God of whom the seraphim proclaim “HOLY HOLY HOLY IS THE LORD OF HOSTS!!! THE WHOLE EARTH IS FULL OF HIS GLORY!!!”. He has not changed since the year that King Uzziah died.

ZEB · December 28, 2010, 12:43am

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

First, what did it say it took to get to hell? All the rich man was guilty of was being wealthy, wearing nice clothes, and eating good food. Is that was the scriptures tell us is the case? Also, notice that the only reason that it gives why the begger had a favorable position is because he was poor.[/quote]

This is not at all true. You left out Luke 19, 20 & 21 which set up the reason that the rich man went to hell (a place of torment). The verses state that the beggar laid at the rich mans gate longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. The obvious implication is that the rich man could have easily acted to help the beggar but let him lay there and suffer. For that he was cast into hell after a lifetime of opulence and seemingly ignoring those who were in pain. This is further backed up by other scripture which implores us to do good without tiring for at the proper time we shall reap. And if we don’t help? We suffer in torment! Anyway, as you can see the rich man was guilty of far more than just being rich.

Yes, completely.

Yes, in fact quite the contrary. I used to wrestle and had to cut weight. And I recall just rinsing my mouth out was sheer delight. The tiny bit of water that I didn’t even swallow tasted like sugar. No lie! And while difficult cutting weight and wrestling are no where near the heat and torment that the rich man felt. I can well believe that even a thimble of water would have been a great gift to that man.

[quote]nd finally, notice where Lazarus was. He was in heaven with Abraham. Now, is that possible? Look at what Col 1:18 tell us:

“And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.”

The heavenly hope had not yet been opened up to men. Until Jesus died as a ransom, that gift or reward was not opened up to man.
[/quote]

You’re wrong again, none of that means that Abraham didn’t eventually get to heaven. It just means that he did not ascend until Christ died. Also, there are other schools of thought that believe that certain great religious leaders such as Mosses and many others (prior to Christ’s death)ascended to heaven immediately. Either way there is good reason to believe that the beggar was indeed in heaven.

honest_lifter · December 28, 2010, 3:27am

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

First, what did it say it took to get to hell? All the rich man was guilty of was being wealthy, wearing nice clothes, and eating good food. Is that was the scriptures tell us is the case? Also, notice that the only reason that it gives why the begger had a favorable position is because he was poor.[/quote]

This is not at all true. You left out Luke 19, 20 & 21 which set up the reason that the rich man went to hell (a place of torment). The verses state that the beggar laid at the rich mans gate longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. The obvious implication is that the rich man could have easily acted to help the beggar but let him lay there and suffer. For that he was cast into hell after a lifetime of opulence and seemingly ignoring those who were in pain. This is further backed up by other scripture which implores us to do good without tiring for at the proper time we shall reap. And if we don’t help? We suffer in torment! Anyway, as you can see the rich man was guilty of far more than just being rich. [/quote]

Three scriptures come to mind:

1 Thess 4:11

Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you,

2 Thess 3:10,12

For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat.
We command such people and urge them in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and work to earn their own living.

Why was the begger sitting there asking for food from those that had it? Work for your own food is what the Bible says; the rich man not giving away food is not a sin.

Yes, completely.

Yes, in fact quite the contrary. I used to wrestle and had to cut weight. And I recall just rinsing my mouth out was sheer delight. The tiny bit of water that I didn’t even swallow tasted like sugar. No lie! And while difficult cutting weight and wrestling are no where near the heat and torment that the rich man felt. I can well believe that even a thimble of water would have been a great gift to that man. [/quote]

it was a drop of water. It wasn’t a thimble. Also, how did the drop make it there? water is a physical thing. do you believe that there are physical bodies in heaven and hell that consume water?

[quote]nd finally, notice where Lazarus was. He was in heaven with Abraham. Now, is that possible? Look at what Col 1:18 tell us:

“And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.”

The heavenly hope had not yet been opened up to men. Until Jesus died as a ransom, that gift or reward was not opened up to man.
[/quote]

You’re wrong again, none of that means that Abraham didn’t eventually get to heaven. It just means that he did not ascend until Christ died. Also, there are other schools of thought that believe that certain great religious leaders such as Mosses and many others (prior to Christ’s death)ascended to heaven immediately. Either way there is good reason to believe that the beggar was indeed in heaven.
[/quote]

I am wrong again?? Christ was giving the example, which means he wasn’t dead, which means that Abraham wasn’t in heaven. So now you are saying that this is a look into the future as well? What scripture shows that Moses was in heaven before Jesus? Why would the begger be in heaven?? Again, Jesus was still alive, the heaven hope wasn’t opened up yet. You have that big hurdle to get over.

honest_lifter · December 28, 2010, 3:36am

Jesus words:

Matthew 11:11

I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Clear point that John the Baptist was not in heaven, and Jesus considered him the greatest man on earth, born of women.

ZEB · December 28, 2010, 4:21am

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
ZEB wrote:

First, what did it say it took to get to hell? All the rich man was guilty of was being wealthy, wearing nice clothes, and eating good food. Is that was the scriptures tell us is the case? Also, notice that the only reason that it gives why the begger had a favorable position is because he was poor.This is not at all true. You left out Luke 19, 20 & 21 which set up the reason that the rich man went to hell (a place of torment). The verses state that the beggar laid at the rich mans gate longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. The obvious implication is that the rich man could have easily acted to help the beggar but let him lay there and suffer. For that he was cast into hell after a lifetime of opulence and seemingly ignoring those who were in pain. This is further backed up by other scripture which implores us to do good without tiring for at the proper time we shall reap. And if we don’t help? We suffer in torment! Anyway, as you can see the rich man was guilty of far more than just being rich.
Three scriptures come to mind:

1 Thess 4:11

Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you,

2 Thess 3:10,12

For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat.
We command such people and urge them in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and work to earn their own living.

Why was the begger sitting there asking for food from those that had it? Work for your own food is what the Bible says; the rich man not giving away food is not a sin.[/quote]

Nonsense - The Bible is rife with passages that encourage us to help the poor, disabled or somehow disadvantaged. Read James for starters. In addition to that there are even more passages which clearly state that the wealthy are to do good deeds and not ignore “the cry of the poor.”

[quote]Yes, in fact quite the contrary. I used to wrestle and had to cut weight. And I recall just rinsing my mouth out was sheer delight. The tiny bit of water that I didn’t even swallow tasted like sugar. No lie! And while difficult cutting weight and wrestling are no where near the heat and torment that the rich man felt. I can well believe that even a thimble of water would have been a great gift to that man.

it was a drop of water. It wasn’t a thimble. [/quote]

Do you think that there’s a nickles worth of difference?

Huh? We are talking about a man who is mad with pain and torment from being in the hell you don’t think exists. He’s simply crying out man.

[quote]nd finally, notice where Lazarus was. He was in heaven with Abraham. Now, is that possible? Look at what Col 1:18 tell us:

“And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.”

The heavenly hope had not yet been opened up to men. Until Jesus died as a ransom, that gift or reward was not opened up to man.

You’re wrong again, none of that means that Abraham didn’t eventually get to heaven. It just means that he did not ascend until Christ died. Also, there are other schools of thought that believe that certain great religious leaders such as Mosses and many others (prior to Christ’s death)ascended to heaven immediately. Either way there is good reason to believe that the beggar was indeed in heaven.

I am wrong again?? Christ was giving the example, which means he wasn’t dead, which means that Abraham wasn’t in heaven. So now you are saying that this is a look into the future as well?

What scripture shows that Moses was in heaven before Jesus?[/quote]

Remember Matthew 17:1,2 &3 ?

"After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

A little later on after Peter offers to put up shelters for all three of them we have this passage which clearly indicates they came from heaven and were going back there as well:

While he was still speaking, a brighht cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the the cloud said, "this is my son, whom I love; with him Iam well pleased. Listen to him!

After that the scripture indicates that they were all gone. Now you have Jesus the son, God the father and Moses and Elijah all pretty much together.

Moses and Elijah obviously came from heaven when they were talking to Jesus. Further clarified by Gods own voice!

No, I don’t have any hurdle to get over. I just open up the Bible and read. Then I take it for exactly what it says. There were people in heaven prior to Christ dying. As I tried to explain in an earlier post.

Anyway I have no standard to live up to except what’s in the Bible. If you are in a religion that pushes you in one particular direction you should ask why? What’s the big deal anyway? If it says it in the Bible why can’t that be good enough? Why do you have to dance around these things?

Sorry I don’t get it. Did you grow up a GW? Where did you get involved with this group?

ZEB · December 28, 2010, 4:14am

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Jesus words:

Matthew 11:11

I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Clear point that John the Baptist was not in heaven, and Jesus considered him the greatest man on earth, born of women.
[/quote]

You are confused my friend. At the time that this was said John the Baptist was NOT in heaven because he was still alive and nearing the end of his ministry. And the message here is that all who have gone to heaven already are greater than John the Baptist, as he has not yet died and gone to heaven. This is more a scripture about the greatness of heaven and the occupants thereof than anything else.

honest_lifter · December 28, 2010, 4:40am

First, stop telling me to “stop it”. Your points aren’t solid.

"Nonsense - The Bible is rife with passages that encourage us to help the poor, disabled or somehow disadvantaged. Read James for starters. In addition to that there are even more passages which clearly state that the wealthy are to do good deeds and not ignore “the cry of the poor.” Come on stop it really. "

You are correct, but show me where it says that we are “sinning” if we don’t give money or food to the poor? Jesus said those that don’t work shouldn’t get food. That is the point. Was the rich man sinning. Yes, he could have helped, and should have helped, but was it a sin not to?

“No, I don’t have any hurdle to get over. I just open up the Bible and read. Then I take it for exactly what it says. There were people in heaven prior to Christ dying. As I tried to explain in an earlier post.”

How are people in heaven?

John 3:13

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven–the Son of Man.

Jesus specifically said that no one had gone to heaven, why do you insist that Moses and Elijah, and for that matter, the begger, were in heaven?

Please also address my scriptures about the condition of the dead that I brought up earlier.

Bottom line, if this were real, it would contradict other verses in the Bible.

honest_lifter · December 28, 2010, 1:22pm

Also, what are the Greek and Hebrew words for hell, if anyone would like to answer?

ZEB · December 28, 2010, 3:00pm

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
First, stop telling me to “stop it”.[/quote]

You’re right, sorry about that. It’s just difficult to read some of the things you’ve posted. I don’t understand why you just can’t accept what is written. Why does there have to be this twisting and turning? Who began the GW movement and why? Perhaps you should be looking into this. And if there is a devil (do you guys believe in one?) don’t you think he’d want you to NOT believe that there is a hell? Think about it.

They are not my points - I merely quote the scripture and that is solid as a rock my friend.

You tell me if it’s a sin. Here is a very wealthy man who is wealthy enough to have actual gates in front of his house, rare in those days. And we have a beggar who is not only poor, but also sick. And I think therein lies the answer. The rich man is not just turning his back on the poor, someone asking him for help. He’s also turned his back on someone who is very sick and in need of attention. Has this person earned (remember this was prior to Christ) his way into heaven by acting like this?

Proverbs 21:13 "Whoever shuts his ears to the cry of the poor will also cry himself and not be heard.

In this verse it doesn’t say where they will cry and not be heard. In the case of the rich man it appears to be hell. This man has sinned against God himself as we can see in the following passages:

Matthew 35:37, 38, 39, 40 Then the righteous will answer him 'Lord when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you? The King (God) will reply 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of min, you did for me.

[quote]Jesus specifically said that no one had gone to heaven, why do you insist that Moses and Elijah, and for that matter, the begger, were in heaven?
[/quote]

Then please explain the passage where the Bible clearly states that Peter and two other apostles watched as Jesus spoke with Moses and Elijah. And then they also heard God speak. Then suddenly Moses and Elijah were gone. This is about 900 years AFTER Moses had died. Where did Moses come from to speak to Jesus if not from heaven? His body would have decayed by then. Why do you fight against the scriptures? Isn’t the word of God more important than any one religion? I have no axe to grind. I merely quote God’s word.

ZEB · December 28, 2010, 3:25pm

Also, what did Jesus come to “Save” us from? Was it to save us from not existing? Really? Do you really think that Hitler for example just vanished after he took his own life? Really? Just heaven huh?

Tell me where are some of the rebellious angels being held as we speak?

2 Peter 2:4 for God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgement.

And…

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Hell is mentioned over 60 times in the OT and about 50 or so in the NT. I know you want to argue over definitions, and I can do that too. One particular homosexual on this site once told me that since the word “homosexual” did not exist back then they were not talking about him. But of course there were other words for homosexual “malakos”. Some religions and some people play word games with the Bible but it can all be traced it’s not that difficult. But I digress. Ask yourself this, whatever it (hell) is called there is much pain there as stated and restated many times in the Bible - and it happens after death. What would you like to call it? Whatever you call it - it’s not good! It happens in the afterlife, it’s torment, anguish gnashing of teeth and it all happens in that place that is not heaven.

You’re a smart guy why don’t you just release whatever it is that keeps you away from just reading the scriptures for what they say?

honest_lifter · December 28, 2010, 3:33pm