By the way, Jehovah’s Witnesses use the Bible as THE authority on their doctrine. If you have some issue with it, use scriptures that show that our line of reasoning is wrong. Examples like the rich man being in a place of torment is a great one, because it is a Biblical passage.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
I believe hell is always self-imposed. It is always the result of vain imaginings. It is the result of morbid thinking.
If God is All, Omnipotent, Loving, then where is this hell? If God is for us, who is against us? Christ has swallowed up all sin in His glory for us. Either you believe this, or you believe in hell.[/quote]
Think about the first punishment. You have 2 perfect people starting out, Adam and Eve. They have no desire to sin, and God gives them one simple rule. Don’t eat from the tree. What does he say will happen if they do? Does he say that they are going to burn in a hell? Does he say they are going to spend eternity “spiritually separated” from God? If God was going to do something like that he would have said it right there in Genesis. So what does He tell them?
Genesis 2:17
“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
The punishment was very clear. They will die if they eat from the tree. And that is what happened.
[/quote]
So…Adam and Eve died when they ate the fruit?[/quote]
They did die after they ate the fruit, correct.
[/quote]
Died, after or when?
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
This passage talks all about hell and how a rich man was sent there and was in torment. So as far as hell being in the Bible it’s there. And anyone who say it’s not is laboring under a very serious false impression.
There are multiple options of meanings behind that passage:
- It is a glimpse into a real “hell” with tormenting.
- It is figurative speech.
I will discuss why it is the second option tomorrow. Really quite simple.
But if you feel that it is a real hell, it would have to somehow harmonize with scriptures that show that we just go to the ground. You would also have to explain somehow, how Jesus went to hell.[/quote]
This passage doesn’t talk about Hell at all, it talks about Purgatory.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
This passage talks all about hell and how a rich man was sent there and was in torment. So as far as hell being in the Bible it’s there. And anyone who say it’s not is laboring under a very serious false impression.
There are multiple options of meanings behind that passage:
- It is a glimpse into a real “hell” with tormenting.
- It is figurative speech.
I will discuss why it is the second option tomorrow. Really quite simple.
But if you feel that it is a real hell, it would have to somehow harmonize with scriptures that show that we just go to the ground. You would also have to explain somehow, how Jesus went to hell.[/quote]
This passage doesn’t talk about Hell at all, it talks about Purgatory.[/quote]
Sorry where does it say purgatory?
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
By the way, Jehovah’s Witnesses use the Bible as THE authority on their doctrine. If you have some issue with it, use scriptures that show that our line of reasoning is wrong. Examples like the rich man being in a place of torment is a great one, because it is a Biblical passage.[/quote]
Strange that someone would use something that came from Catholic authority, as their authority, instead of just going to the source of the authority. 
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
This passage talks all about hell and how a rich man was sent there and was in torment. So as far as hell being in the Bible it’s there. And anyone who say it’s not is laboring under a very serious false impression.
There are multiple options of meanings behind that passage:
- It is a glimpse into a real “hell” with tormenting.
- It is figurative speech.
I will discuss why it is the second option tomorrow. Really quite simple.
But if you feel that it is a real hell, it would have to somehow harmonize with scriptures that show that we just go to the ground. You would also have to explain somehow, how Jesus went to hell.[/quote]
This passage doesn’t talk about Hell at all, it talks about Purgatory.[/quote]
Sorry where does it say purgatory?
[/quote]
Did say it says purgatory, says it talks about it.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
By the way, Jehovah’s Witnesses use the Bible as THE authority on their doctrine. If you have some issue with it, use scriptures that show that our line of reasoning is wrong. Examples like the rich man being in a place of torment is a great one, because it is a Biblical passage.[/quote]
Strange that someone would use something that came from Catholic authority, as their authority, instead of just going to the source of the authority. :P[/quote]
You still don’t accept what I said about the trinity even though you have no way of refuting it using the scriptures. We don’t rely on any tradition, we rely on the Bible. The downside to tradition is, if it is wrong, it is very hard to go against it, and usually impossible to remain part of the same religion. Kind of like going down with the ship I guess.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
I believe hell is always self-imposed. It is always the result of vain imaginings. It is the result of morbid thinking.
If God is All, Omnipotent, Loving, then where is this hell? If God is for us, who is against us? Christ has swallowed up all sin in His glory for us. Either you believe this, or you believe in hell.[/quote]
Think about the first punishment. You have 2 perfect people starting out, Adam and Eve. They have no desire to sin, and God gives them one simple rule. Don’t eat from the tree. What does he say will happen if they do? Does he say that they are going to burn in a hell? Does he say they are going to spend eternity “spiritually separated” from God? If God was going to do something like that he would have said it right there in Genesis. So what does He tell them?
Genesis 2:17
“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
The punishment was very clear. They will die if they eat from the tree. And that is what happened.
[/quote]
This is perfect scripture for me because it says…do not eat of the tree of good and evil. Meaning God created everything perfect…do not think evil has a part in God’s perfect creation. Because once you entertain the concept of evil (hell), you will die. Evil, hell, sickness, sin…do not touch any of these morbid synomyms, because if you do, you’re gonna pay the price.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
By the way, Jehovah’s Witnesses use the Bible as THE authority on their doctrine. If you have some issue with it, use scriptures that show that our line of reasoning is wrong. Examples like the rich man being in a place of torment is a great one, because it is a Biblical passage.[/quote]
I’ve already addressed that. There are many, many references to “torment” and “weeping and gnashing of teeth”. Ah, I’m sure you’ll rationalize those away. But, I just can’t wait to read how so I’m game - Go ahead. No wait, let me guess they’re “weeping” for joy because there is no hell. And they are gnashing their teeth because there is so much sugar in the after life that they have tooth decay? Why are we even discussing these phrases which describe hell? Why isn’t there clear scripture to indicate there is no torment? It’s quite the opposite.
It pains me to see an otherwise bright guy like you fall for this stuff.
Weeping and Gnashing mentioned 7 times in the NT.
Not to mention the references to pain and suffering. Now if we just disappear, why all of the references?
Also, here’s one for you. If we do not exist anymore why isn’t it clearly stated? Something like if you do not go to heaven you will cease to exist. How about that? Why do we have to do this dance around all of these words that implicate “pain” if you really do simply cease to exist?
Come on man.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
This passage talks all about hell and how a rich man was sent there and was in torment. So as far as hell being in the Bible it’s there. And anyone who say it’s not is laboring under a very serious false impression.
There are multiple options of meanings behind that passage:
- It is a glimpse into a real “hell” with tormenting.
- It is figurative speech.
I will discuss why it is the second option tomorrow. Really quite simple.
But if you feel that it is a real hell, it would have to somehow harmonize with scriptures that show that we just go to the ground. You would also have to explain somehow, how Jesus went to hell.[/quote]
This passage doesn’t talk about Hell at all, it talks about Purgatory.[/quote]
Sorry where does it say purgatory?
[/quote]
Did say it says purgatory, says it talks about it.[/quote]
The scripture clearly states “Hades” and it also defines it as “a place of torment”. Are you saying that purgatory is in fact Hades and is a place of torment?
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
I believe hell is always self-imposed. It is always the result of vain imaginings. It is the result of morbid thinking.
If God is All, Omnipotent, Loving, then where is this hell? If God is for us, who is against us? Christ has swallowed up all sin in His glory for us. Either you believe this, or you believe in hell.[/quote]
Think about the first punishment. You have 2 perfect people starting out, Adam and Eve. They have no desire to sin, and God gives them one simple rule. Don’t eat from the tree. What does he say will happen if they do? Does he say that they are going to burn in a hell? Does he say they are going to spend eternity “spiritually separated” from God? If God was going to do something like that he would have said it right there in Genesis. So what does He tell them?
Genesis 2:17
“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
The punishment was very clear. They will die if they eat from the tree. And that is what happened.
[/quote]
So basically according to the JW beliefs the worst that can happen to us is that we cease to exist? Thats a neutral punishment because there is no joy nor torment.
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
I believe hell is always self-imposed. It is always the result of vain imaginings. It is the result of morbid thinking.
If God is All, Omnipotent, Loving, then where is this hell? If God is for us, who is against us? Christ has swallowed up all sin in His glory for us. Either you believe this, or you believe in hell.[/quote]
Think about the first punishment. You have 2 perfect people starting out, Adam and Eve. They have no desire to sin, and God gives them one simple rule. Don’t eat from the tree. What does he say will happen if they do? Does he say that they are going to burn in a hell? Does he say they are going to spend eternity “spiritually separated” from God? If God was going to do something like that he would have said it right there in Genesis. So what does He tell them?
Genesis 2:17
“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
The punishment was very clear. They will die if they eat from the tree. And that is what happened.
[/quote]
This is perfect scripture for me because it says…do not eat of the tree of good and evil. Meaning God created everything perfect…do not think evil has a part in God’s perfect creation. Because once you entertain the concept of evil (hell), you will die. Evil, hell, sickness, sin…do not touch any of these morbid synomyms, because if you do, you’re gonna pay the price.
[/quote]
So are you saying these things don’t exist?
[quote]forbes wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
I believe hell is always self-imposed. It is always the result of vain imaginings. It is the result of morbid thinking.
If God is All, Omnipotent, Loving, then where is this hell? If God is for us, who is against us? Christ has swallowed up all sin in His glory for us. Either you believe this, or you believe in hell.[/quote]
Think about the first punishment. You have 2 perfect people starting out, Adam and Eve. They have no desire to sin, and God gives them one simple rule. Don’t eat from the tree. What does he say will happen if they do? Does he say that they are going to burn in a hell? Does he say they are going to spend eternity “spiritually separated” from God? If God was going to do something like that he would have said it right there in Genesis. So what does He tell them?
Genesis 2:17
“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
The punishment was very clear. They will die if they eat from the tree. And that is what happened.
[/quote]
So basically according to the JW beliefs the worst that can happen to us is that we cease to exist? Thats a neutral punishment because there is no joy nor torment. [/quote]
Yes exactly. Why would God want us to suffer for eternity?
[quote]forbes wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
I believe hell is always self-imposed. It is always the result of vain imaginings. It is the result of morbid thinking.
If God is All, Omnipotent, Loving, then where is this hell? If God is for us, who is against us? Christ has swallowed up all sin in His glory for us. Either you believe this, or you believe in hell.[/quote]
Think about the first punishment. You have 2 perfect people starting out, Adam and Eve. They have no desire to sin, and God gives them one simple rule. Don’t eat from the tree. What does he say will happen if they do? Does he say that they are going to burn in a hell? Does he say they are going to spend eternity “spiritually separated” from God? If God was going to do something like that he would have said it right there in Genesis. So what does He tell them?
Genesis 2:17
“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
The punishment was very clear. They will die if they eat from the tree. And that is what happened.
[/quote]
This is perfect scripture for me because it says…do not eat of the tree of good and evil. Meaning God created everything perfect…do not think evil has a part in God’s perfect creation. Because once you entertain the concept of evil (hell), you will die. Evil, hell, sickness, sin…do not touch any of these morbid synomyms, because if you do, you’re gonna pay the price.
[/quote]
So are you saying these things don’t exist?[/quote]
I’m saying it doesn’t exist to God and His Creation. God is too pure to see it. Of course, some humans think, act, and look for morbidity all the time. They have free will and can knock themselves out. Evil and hell will be very real to them. But I think we can agree that there is no evil or hell in the Kingdom of God. (I hope!). P.S. I’m not a JW and don’t profess to speak for them. I’m not even sure what their position on the issue is.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]forbes wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
I believe hell is always self-imposed. It is always the result of vain imaginings. It is the result of morbid thinking.
If God is All, Omnipotent, Loving, then where is this hell? If God is for us, who is against us? Christ has swallowed up all sin in His glory for us. Either you believe this, or you believe in hell.[/quote]
Think about the first punishment. You have 2 perfect people starting out, Adam and Eve. They have no desire to sin, and God gives them one simple rule. Don’t eat from the tree. What does he say will happen if they do? Does he say that they are going to burn in a hell? Does he say they are going to spend eternity “spiritually separated” from God? If God was going to do something like that he would have said it right there in Genesis. So what does He tell them?
Genesis 2:17
“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
The punishment was very clear. They will die if they eat from the tree. And that is what happened.
[/quote]
So basically according to the JW beliefs the worst that can happen to us is that we cease to exist? Thats a neutral punishment because there is no joy nor torment. [/quote]
Yes exactly. Why would God want us to suffer for eternity?[/quote]
He doesn’t. That is why Jesus came. To die for our sins. He took our place by accepting God’s full wrath. However for one to be saved by the Lord one must believe and accept his sacrifice, being born again of the spirit.
[quote]forbes wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]forbes wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
I believe hell is always self-imposed. It is always the result of vain imaginings. It is the result of morbid thinking.
If God is All, Omnipotent, Loving, then where is this hell? If God is for us, who is against us? Christ has swallowed up all sin in His glory for us. Either you believe this, or you believe in hell.[/quote]
Think about the first punishment. You have 2 perfect people starting out, Adam and Eve. They have no desire to sin, and God gives them one simple rule. Don’t eat from the tree. What does he say will happen if they do? Does he say that they are going to burn in a hell? Does he say they are going to spend eternity “spiritually separated” from God? If God was going to do something like that he would have said it right there in Genesis. So what does He tell them?
Genesis 2:17
“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
The punishment was very clear. They will die if they eat from the tree. And that is what happened.
[/quote]
So basically according to the JW beliefs the worst that can happen to us is that we cease to exist? Thats a neutral punishment because there is no joy nor torment. [/quote]
Yes exactly. Why would God want us to suffer for eternity?[/quote]
He doesn’t. That is why Jesus came. To die for our sins. He took our place by accepting God’s full wrath. However for one to be saved by the Lord one must believe and accept his sacrifice, being born again of the spirit.[/quote]
Interesting point you bring up, “born again of his spirit”. Do you feel it is something that we can achieve or do you think it is something that God bestows upon us? I don’t want to get too off topic. First off, I am going to continue to address the hellfire doctrine, as that is the first question that you asked.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]forbes wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]forbes wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
I believe hell is always self-imposed. It is always the result of vain imaginings. It is the result of morbid thinking.
If God is All, Omnipotent, Loving, then where is this hell? If God is for us, who is against us? Christ has swallowed up all sin in His glory for us. Either you believe this, or you believe in hell.[/quote]
Think about the first punishment. You have 2 perfect people starting out, Adam and Eve. They have no desire to sin, and God gives them one simple rule. Don’t eat from the tree. What does he say will happen if they do? Does he say that they are going to burn in a hell? Does he say they are going to spend eternity “spiritually separated” from God? If God was going to do something like that he would have said it right there in Genesis. So what does He tell them?
Genesis 2:17
“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
The punishment was very clear. They will die if they eat from the tree. And that is what happened.
[/quote]
So basically according to the JW beliefs the worst that can happen to us is that we cease to exist? Thats a neutral punishment because there is no joy nor torment. [/quote]
Yes exactly. Why would God want us to suffer for eternity?[/quote]
He doesn’t. That is why Jesus came. To die for our sins. He took our place by accepting God’s full wrath. However for one to be saved by the Lord one must believe and accept his sacrifice, being born again of the spirit.[/quote]
Interesting point you bring up, “born again of his spirit”. Do you feel it is something that we can achieve or do you think it is something that God bestows upon us? I don’t want to get too off topic. First off, I am going to continue to address the hellfire doctrine, as that is the first question that you asked.
[/quote]
I feel that is something that occurs when we earnestly believe and seek out Christ. I know many people who go to church and partake in communion who then get drunk and go to strip clubs on the weekend. These people (who will remain nameless) are not born again and are not saved, because though they “claim” that Christ is their savior, they do not live the life Christ wants. So to me it is a natural phenomenon when one truly accepts Christ as their savior.
OK, first let’s address scriptures that talk about death:
Ec 3:19,20
“For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.”
Ec 9:5, 6
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.”
Ps 146:4
“When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them.”
So, these scriptures seem to point to us return to the earth and no longer having thought after death. So, then, how about Luke 16: 22-25:
"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ “But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.”
This seems to lead to a contradiction. That passage seems to point to a torment after death. However, let’s look at it a little closer to see if this is a parable or a recounting of actual events.
First, what did it say it took to get to hell? All the rich man was guilty of was being wealthy, wearing nice clothes, and eating good food. Is that was the scriptures tell us is the case? Also, notice that the only reason that it gives why the begger had a favorable position is because he was poor. Is that in harmony with the rest of the Bible? Now, notice the imagery: the rich man asks Abraham to send Lazarus to dip his finger in water so that he might cool the rich man’s tongue. Does that sound realistic? If a man was burning in a lake of fire, would one drop of water do anything to bring him relief? And finally, notice where Lazarus was. He was in heaven with Abraham. Now, is that possible? Look at what Col 1:18 tell us:
“And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.”
The heavenly hope had not yet been opened up to men. Until Jesus died as a ransom, that gift or reward was not opened up to man.
Now I will stop there, because there are bound to be questions, comments, and objections.
[quote]forbes wrote:
I feel that is something that occurs when we earnestly believe and seek out Christ. I know many people who go to church and partake in communion who then get drunk and go to strip clubs on the weekend. These people (who will remain nameless) are not born again and are not saved, because though they “claim” that Christ is their savior, they do not live the life Christ wants. So to me it is a natural phenomenon when one truly accepts Christ as their savior.[/quote]
What is your scriptural backing for that idea?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
This passage talks all about hell and how a rich man was sent there and was in torment. So as far as hell being in the Bible it’s there. And anyone who say it’s not is laboring under a very serious false impression.
There are multiple options of meanings behind that passage:
- It is a glimpse into a real “hell” with tormenting.
- It is figurative speech.
I will discuss why it is the second option tomorrow. Really quite simple.
But if you feel that it is a real hell, it would have to somehow harmonize with scriptures that show that we just go to the ground. You would also have to explain somehow, how Jesus went to hell.[/quote]
This passage doesn’t talk about Hell at all, it talks about Purgatory.[/quote]
Sorry where does it say purgatory?
[/quote]
Did say it says purgatory, says it talks about it.[/quote]
The scripture clearly states “Hades” and it also defines it as “a place of torment”. Are you saying that purgatory is in fact Hades and is a place of torment?
[/quote]
This is the JW’s thread, and I don’t want to hi-jack it. If you want to post that question in the Catholics Q&A I’ll answer it.