Jehovah's Witness Q & A

[quote]Vonamberg wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
And while I’m at it I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask you exactly when the world will end. I know that as a new cult member I am probably not privy to all of that good stuff, but thought I’d ask anyway.

Since JW predicted the end of the world five times (1914, 1918, 1925, 1942 and 1975) and were obviously wrong each time I think I need to defend that nonsense. So what do I say to those evil doubter’s (they’re mostly girl scouts) who say that JW have been wrong about these things?

Okay I think that’s all for now.

Nooooo…wait…what about the false prophecies that have come out of the JW? Like the prediction of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob being resurrected and living on the earth by 1925? Hmm…I don’t know what I’ll say when they ask me about that. And also the 1000 year reign of Christ that was supposed to have started in 1975. What about that one? I just want to make sure I have the right answer so I don’t make anyone in the cult look bad - You know me…I’m a team player :slight_smile:

Okay I want to make sure I get this right:

God is not omnipotent

Michael was the first created being

Jesus Christ is only an angel

There is no heaven or hell we just disappear

Don’t celebrate Christmas, or Easter.

Don’t serve in the military

And whatever the heck you do DO NOT BUY GIRL SCOUT COOKIES!

I got it—I’ll be good at this.

Oh one final thing, what’s the view on Satan I don’t want to blow this one.

[/quote]
Since all men are imperfect and I wasnt alive when those things went on I cant tell you. [/quote]

You can’t tell me about all those “prophecies” that went wrong? That seems like a dodge to me my man. It seems like if they were really connected to God that they’d be correct instead of looking like the idiots that they were.

Come on now when you go knocking on doors to get your quota someone might ask you about those false prophets of yours - Seems to me you better have a good answer.

[quote]Vonamberg wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:
No, I am mocking the false prophets of your organization who claimed to have received prophetic revelation from God but these prophesies never came true. [/quote]
Feel free we can only wait and see[/quote]

Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

[quote]Vonamberg wrote:
No Im not trying to insult you but my bible is in modern english not archaic english.
[/quote]

Yes, and that is why I posted the verses again when I had my other Bible. And, it is not archaic English, it is called Ole English. And, we’re lucky we have it in English because of the arbitrariness of the English language, Latin and Greek are better Biblical and Ecclesiastical languages.

Okay, I agree 100% with you, worshiping anything besides God is adultery and idolatry. Now, because of the arbitrary meaning of worship (that reserved for God, so anything worshipped is a god) we have to frame it in a different way to understand if Christians worship the Crucifix. Take it to the heart of the matter, do Christians think the Crucifix is a god and do they do treat the Crucifix as a god, specifically do they worship it, adore it, bow down to it, serve it, or burn incense to it (pray to it)?

No, I do not know a Christian who thinks the Crucifix is a god, and I do not know a Christian who worships it, adores it, bows down to it, serve it, or burn incense to it.

(Matthew 24:36) â??Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.

Like I said no one on earth knows when these things will take place. Anyone can shout out a date but they will be wrong because no one knows. All those that were trusting in 1975 left after it didnt happen disillusioned. Why? because they choose to rely on a date instead of Jehovah. Oh and btw I have searched thru the articles in 1974 and 1975 and no where did the governing body say 1975 was the date. What they did say is they didnt know. So it was certain members that were relying on the date not them. Oh I did find 1975 was the 6000 year of human rule.

Here is a scripture that details what Im waiting for…

(1 Thessalonians 5:1-5) Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, YOU need nothing to be written to YOU. 2Â For YOU yourselves know quite well that Jehovahâ??s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. 3Â Whenever it is that they are saying: â??Peace and security!â?? then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape. 4Â But YOU, brothers, YOU are not in darkness, so that that day should overtake YOU as it would thieves, 5Â for YOU are all sons of light and sons of day. We belong neither to night nor to darkness.

Stated,

"In my bible the word form cites two scriptures.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

Heb 1:3 3Ã? He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places

So his form is a spirit creature. That has nothing to do with whether Jesus was god or not."

“Form” (Gk. morphe) means “shape, outward appearance.” The term is used in classical Greek to describe the external appearance and form, nature, or condition in which a person appears.

Paul declares in Philippians 2:6 that Jesus Christ was in the “form of God” (morphe); that is, the true “form” of His preexistent, divine, majestic, and glorious nature (Jn. 17:5). Here “form” is not merely the external appearance or mode of existence by which He was observed by those around Him. Rather, morphe in this verse is the nature or character of something, with emphasis upon both the internal and external form.

The parallelism between “the form of God” and the “form of a servant” is important in understanding the meaning of morphe in Philippians 2:6-7. The en (“in”) does not mean that this form was somehow only an outer shell that was different from the essential nature of Christ. If this were true He would have been like an actor playing the part of someone who He was not. That Christ was in the “form of God” means that Christ’s essential nature was divine. In the Incarnation Jesus exchanged the “form of God” for the “form of a servant.” However, this does not suggest any change in the nature and essence of Jesus as God… It was in the process of becoming the God-man that He humiliated himself and took the form of a slave. The essence which appeared in the form of a servant remained the same. Jesus did not relinquish His deity, only its “form” of glory, power, and majesty. When He was transformed (metamorphoo) on the Mount of Transfiguration, His outward appearance changed to correspond with the internal glory and essence He always had.

As for your two quoted verses above, studies indicate that Gnostic heresy, which apparently had infected Christian assemblies, contained many unscriptural doctrines, but its main error was its depreciation of the person and work of Christ.

Paul first described Christ as “the image of the invisible God.” The Bible states in several locations that the essence or substance of God is invisible to human beings (Rom. 1:20; I Tim. 1:17; Heb. 11:27). It also states that no man can ever see God, an obvious reference to the Father, but that Christ has made the Father known (Jn. 1:18; 14:9).

“Image” expresses two crucial points. First, it suggests “representation, likeness.” Hebrews 1:3 reflects the same idea through another Greek term that was tranlated “exact representation” in the NIV. “Manifestation” is the second idea reflected in the term “image” (Jn. 1:18; 14:9). Paul also described Christ as “the firstborn of every creature.” “Firstborn” (prototokos) does not imply that Jesus is part of creation, a created being, but rather indicates His priority and sovereignty over all creation. “Firstborn” has the O.T. meaning: “first in position,” “heir,” or “supreme” (e.g., Ex. 4:22; Jer. 31:9; see also Ps. 89:27, where “firstborn” is used of David’s rulership, although he was not a firstborn son). Christ is the heir and ruler of all creation as the eternal only beggoten Son of God (cf. Col. 1:16-18; Heb. 1:1-2).

nm

[quote]Vonamberg wrote:
a lot of text…
[/quote]

So, a Priest-King around the time of Moses combined the gods into one god creating perhaps the first monotheistic religion in the world, Moses wrote about the monotheistic G-d, YWHW in the Torah. According to your fancy logic, Mose’s G-d had pagan origins.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are worshiping a pagan god. Is that true?

nm

[quote]Vonamberg wrote:
Speaking of the cross…

The book The Non-Christian Cross, by John Denham Parsons, states: â??There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross.� .� .� . it is not a little misleading upon the part of our teachers to translate the word stauros as â??crossâ?? when rendering the Greek documents of the Church into our native tongue, and to support that action by putting â??crossâ?? in our lexicons as the meaning of stauros without carefully explaining that that was at any rate not the primary meaning of the word in the days of the Apostles, did not become its primary signification till long afterwards, and became so then, if at all, only because, despite the absence of corroborative evidence, it was for some reason or other assumed that the particular stauros upon which Jesus was executed had that particular shape.â??â??London, 1896, pp. 23, 24.

The Cross

A tradition of the Church which our fathers have inherited, was the adoption of the words “cross” and “crucify”.

These words are nowhere to be found in the Greek of the New Testament. These words are mistranslations, a “later rendering”, of the Greek words stauros and stauroo. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says, "STAUROS denotes, primarily, an upright pole or stake … Both the noun and the verb stauroo, to fasten to a stake or pole, are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two-beamed cross.

The shape of the latter had its origin in ancient Chaldea (Babylon), and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) … By the middle of the 3rd century A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith.

In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross piece lowered, was adopted .

Dr. Bullinger, in the Companion Bible, appx. 162, states, “crosses were used as symbols of the Babylonian Sun-god … It should be stated that Constantine was a Sun-god worshipper … The evidence is thus complete, that the Lord was put to death upon an upright stake, and not on two pieces of timber placed at any angle.”

Rev. Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons, pp. 197-205, frankly calls the cross “this Pagan symbol … the Tau, the sign of the cross, the indisputable sign of Tammuz, the false Messiah … the mystic Tau of the Cladeans (Babylonians) and Egyptians - the true original form of the letter T the initial of the name of Tammuz … the Babylonian cross was the recognised emblem of Tammuz.”

In the Encyclopaedia Britannica, 11th edition, vol. 14, p. 273, we read, “In the Egyption churches the cross was a pagan symbol of life borrowed by the Christians and interpreted in the pagan manner.” Jacob Grimm, in his Deutsche Mythologie, says that the Teutonic (Germanic) tribes had their idol Thor, symbolised by a hammer, while the Roman Christians had their crux (cross). It was thus somewhat easier for the Teutons to accept the Roman Cross.

Greek dictionaries, lexicons and other study books also declare the primary meaning of stauros to be an upright pale, pole or stake. The secondary meaning of “cross” is admitted by them to be a “later” rendering. At least two of them do not even mention “cross”, and only render the meaning as “pole or stake”.

In spite of this strong evidence and proof that the word stauros should have been translated “stake”, and the verb stauroo to have been translated “impale”, almost all the common versions of the Scriptures persist with the Latin Vulgate’s crux (cross), a fallacious “later” rendering of the Greek stauros. Why then was the “cross” (crux) brought into the Faith?

Again, historical evidence points to Constantine as the one who had the major share in uniting Sun-worship and the Messianic Faith. Constantine’s famous vision of “the cross superimposed on the sun”, in the year 312, is usually cited. Writers, ignorant of the fact that the cross was not to be found in the New Testament Scriptures, put much emphasis on this vision as the onset of the so-called “conversion” of Constantine. But, unless Constantine had been misguided by the Gnostic Manichean half-Christians, who indeed used the cross in their hybrid religion, this vision of the cross superimposed on the sun could only be the same old cosmic religion, the astrological religion of Babylon. The fact remains: that which Constantine saw, is nowhere to be found in Scripture.

We read in the book of Johannes Geffcken, The Last Days of Greco-Roman Paganism, p.319, “that even after 314 A.D. the coins of Constantine show an even-armed cross as a symbol for the Sun-god.” Many scholars have doubted the “conversion” of Constantine because of the wicked deeds that he did afterwards, and because of the fact that he only requested to be baptized on his death-bed many years later, in the year 337. So, if the vision of the cross impressed him, and was used as a rallying symbol, it could not have been in honour of YahushÃ?ºa, because Constantine continued paying homage to the Sun-deity and to one of the Sun-deity’s symbols, the cross.

This continuation of Sun-worship by Constantine is of by his persistent use of images of the Sun-deity on his coins that were issued by him up to the year 323. Secondly, the fact of his motivation to issue his Sunday-keeping edict in the year 321, which was not done in honour of YahushÃ?ºa, but was done because of the “venerable day of the Sun”, as the edict read, is proof of this continued allegiance to Sol Invictus. We shall expand on this later.

Where did the cross come from, then? J.C. Cooper, An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols, p. 45, aptly summarises it, “Cross - A universal symbol from the most remote times; it is the cosmic symbol par excellence.” Other authorities also call it a sun-symbol, a Babylonian sun-symbol, an astrological Babylonian-Assyrian and heathen run-symbol, also in the form of an encircled cross referred to as a “solar wheel”, and many other varieties of crosses. Also, “the cross represents the Tree of Life”, the age-old fertility symbol, combining the vertical male and horizontal female principles, especially in Egypt, either as an ordinary cross, or better known in the form of the crux ansata, the Egyptian ankh (sometimes called the Tau cross), which had been carried over into our modern-day symbol of the female, well known in biology.

As stated above, the indisputable sign of Tammuz, the mystic Tau of the Babylonians and Egyptians, was brought into the Church chiefly because of Constantine, and has since been adored with all the homage due only to the Most High.

The Protestants have for many years refrained from undue adoration of, or homage to the cross, especially in England at the time of the Puritans in the 16th - 17th centuries. But lately this un-Scriptural symbol has been increasingly accepted in Protestantism.

We have previously discussed “the weeping for Tammuz”, and the similarity between the Easter resurrection and the return or rising of Tammuz. Tammuz was the young incarnate Sun, the Sun-divinity incarnate. This same Sun-deity, known amongst the Babylonians as Tammuz, was identified with the Greek Adonis and with the Phoenician Adoni,96 all of them Sun-deities, being slain in winter, then being “wept for”, and their return being celebrated by a festivity in spring, while some had it in summer - according to the myths of pagan idolatry.

The evidence for its pagan origin is so convincing that The Catholic Encyclopedia admits that “the sign of the cross, represented in its simplest form by a crossing of two lines at right angles, greatly antedates, in both East and the West, the introduction of Christianity. It goes back to a very remote period of human civilization.” It then continues and revers to the Tau cross of the pagan Egyptians, "In later times the Egyptian Christians (Copts), attracted by its form, and perhaps by its symbolism, adopted it as the emblem of the cross."98 Further proof of its pagan origin is the recorded evidence of the Vestal Virgins of pagan Rome having the cross hanging on a necklace,99 and the Egyptians doing it too, as early as the 15th century B.C.E.100 The Buddhists, and

Ancient Egyptian Rot-n-no priests. Note the crosses on the robe, and hanging from their necks.

Numerous other sects of India, also used the sign of the cross as a mark on their followers’ heads. "The cross thus widely worshipped, or regarded as a ‘sacred emblem’, was the unequivocal symbol of Bacchus, the Babylonian Messiah, for he was represented with a head-band covered with crosses. "It was also the symbol of Jupiter Foederis in Rome.103 Furthermore, we read of the cross on top of the temple of Serapis,104 the Sun-deity of Alexandria.

This is Tammuz, whom the Greeks called Bacchus, with the crosses on his head-band.

After Constantine had the “vision of the cross”, he and his army promoted another variety of the cross, the Chi-Rho or Labarum or sometimes . This has subsequently been explained as representing the first letters of the name Christos, the being the Greek for “Ch” and the being the Greek for “r”. but again, this emblem had a pagan origin. The identical symbols were found as inscriptions on a rock, dating from the year ca. 2 500 B.C., being interpreted as “a combination of two Sun-symbols”, as the Ax or Hammer-symbol of the Sun- or Sky-deity, and the or as the ancient symbol of the Sun, both of these signs having a sensual or fertility meaning as well.

Another proof of its pagan origin is the identical found on a coin of Ptolemeus III from the year 247 - 222 B.C. A well-known encyclopaedia describes the Labarum (Chi-Rho) as, "The labarum was also an emblem of the Chaldean (Babylonian) sky-god and in Christianity it was adopted…"Emperor Constantine adopted this Labarum as the imperial ensign and thereby succeeded in "uniting both divisions of his troops, pagans and Christians, in a common worship … according to Suicer the word (labarum) came into use in the reign of Hadrian, and was probably adopted from one of the nations conquered by the Romans. "It must be remembered that Hadrian reigned in the years 76 - 138, that he was a pagan emperor, worshipped the Sun-deity Serapis when he visited Alexandria, and was vehemently anti-Judaistic, being responsible for the final near-destruction of Jerusalem in the year 130.

Another dictionary relates the following about the Chi-Rho, “However, the symbol was in use long before Christianity, and X (Chi) probably stood for Great Fire or Sun,and P (Rho) probably stood for Pater or Patah (Father). The word labarum (labarum) yields everlasting Father Sun.”

What is the “mark of the beast” of which we read in Rev 13:16-17, Rev 14:9-11, Rev 15:2, Rev 16:2, Rev 19:20 and Rev 20:4 - a mark on people’s foreheads and on their right hands? Rev 14:11 reveals the mark to be “the mark of his (the beast’s) name.” Have we not read about the mystic Tau, the T, the initial of Tammuz’s name, his mark? This same letter T (Tau) was written in Egyptian hieroglyphics and in the old Wemitic languages as, representing the CROSS. Different interpretations have been given to the “mark of the beast”, and also the cross has been suggested. There has been some research done on the strange crosses found on quite a few statues of pagan priests, on their foreheads. However, these scholars have been unable to come to an agreement. Conclusive evidence may still come (see among others: Dr. F.J. Dolger, Antike und Christentum, vol. 2, pp. 281-293).

Let us rather use the true rendering of the Scriptural words stauros and stauro, namely “stake” and “impale” and eliminate the un-Scriptural “cross” and “crucify”.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/218795/the_origin_of_the_cross_symbol_used.html?cat=34

The cross is used within the Christian faith and among the Christian sects. It is the most common symbol seen in, on, and around Christian churches all over the world. Since it pre-dates Christianity and has pagan
beginnings, at least one church father of the 3rd century CE condemned its use.

The first appearance of a cross in Christian artwork was on a Vatican sarcophagus from the mid-5th century. It was a Greek cross with arms of equal length and Jesus’ body had no place on it. The first portrayals of crucifixion on a cross did not appear until the 7th century CE. This particular cross took the shape of a letter “T”. “T”, the initial of the name Tammuz. This shape is from the form of the Tau Cross. The church may have copied this symbol from the Pagan Druids who made crosses like this to represent the Thau, or god. St. Philip was allegedly crucified on a cross like this.

Later on in Christian history, the Tau Cross became the Roman Cross that most everyone is familiar with today. The Romans sometimes executed people on a Tau Cross and sometimes a Roman cross. There were times they used a simple stake and would forego the cross all together.

It is not likely that Jesus actually hung on a cross at all but instead hung on a tree, stake, or pole. The original gospels written in Greek used the word “stauros” to refer to the structure used for execution. This word means a vertical pole with no crossbar. Jesus may have been hung on a tree (Acts 5:30) (1 Peter 2:24)

What has caused some conflict is Deuteronomy 21:23 which states that a person hung on a tree was cursed by God. This verse here prevented many of the Jewish faith from accepting Jesus as Messiah. Until Constantine made his entrance, the cross as an artistic reference to Jesus’ crucifixion cannot even be found. Since crosses were used as symbols of the Babylonian Sun-god, it could be said that Constantine was a Sun-god worshiper!
[/quote]

Um…conclusions…all of them are false. And, am I supposed to really believe such biased, unhistorical, and fallacious Jehovah’s Witnesses? Pick up a history book and learn rhetoric and philosophy.

[quote]Vonamberg wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Vonamberg wrote:
a lot of text…
[/quote]

So, a Priest-King around the time of Moses combined the gods into one god creating perhaps the first monotheistic religion in the world, Moses wrote about the monotheistic G-d, YWHW in the Torah. According to your fancy logic, Mose’s G-d had pagan origins.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are worshiping a pagan god. Is that true?[/quote]

(Psalm 83:18) That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

(Exodus 3:14-15) At this God said to Moses: �¢??I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.�¢?? And he added: �¢??This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, �¢??I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to YOU.�¢??�¢?? 15�?� Then God said once more to Moses: �¢??This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, �¢??Jehovah the God of YOUR forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to YOU.�¢?? This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation.

My god is the god of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. His name is Jehovah. We have not removed his name from the bible nor are we ashamed to speak it. So how can the most high who created the earth be pagan?[/quote]

Hey, just using your logic, brother. And, Jehovah didn’t appear until 16th century Germany. Which was in Latinized Hebrew and still properly pronounced Yahovah. Which the name was not common among Latin authors.

[quote]Vonamberg wrote:
<<< Jehovah’s Witnesses do not accept the use of the cross as a symbol of Christianity. They point to the fact that there is no Biblical support for doing so and regard it as idolatry. They also believe that Tammuz was a Babylonian god, and that the cross was widely used by his worshipers as his symbol. They believe that Jesus died, not on a two-beam cross, but on an upright stake, in accordance with the interpretation of the Greek word Ã??Ã??Ã?±Ã??Ã??Ã??Ã?? (stauros). In classical Greek, this word meant merely an upright stake, or pole. Later it also came to be used for an execution stake having a crosspiece.[9]

So it wasnt until later that it stauros meant cross. Your bible even says “he hangeth on a tree” not a cross.

[/quote]Well bless yer big ol heart. I am so glad you pointed out that the incarnation, ministry, death, burial, resurrection, ascension and glorification of Jesus Christ is eternally governed by the configuration of the wood He died on. As long as it wasn’t a peace symbol God forbid, Your a pitiful religionist friend. Arius has lied to you and now here you are wrangling over the utterly meaningless question of the physical shape of the instrument used in the sacrificial death of the Son of the most high God as if it actually had any real significance whatsoever. Repent, burn your magazines, fall on your face and beg forgiveness of the God and Christ who is actually there.

[quote]Vonamberg wrote:
Just so we have no confusion I will use an online version of your bible.

http://www.search-the-bible.com/new-testament/Acts/acts-chapter-five.htm

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

http://www.search-the-bible.com/new-testament/Acts/acts-chapter-ten.htm

Acts 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

http://www.search-the-bible.com/new-testament/Acts/acts-chapter-thirteen.htm

Acts 13:29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

http://www.search-the-bible.com/new-testament/Galatians/galatians-chapter-three.htm

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

http://www.search-the-bible.com/new-testament/First-Peter/first-peter-chapter-two.htm

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Jehovah’s Witnesses do not accept the use of the cross as a symbol of Christianity. They point to the fact that there is no Biblical support for doing so and regard it as idolatry. They also believe that Tammuz was a Babylonian god, and that the cross was widely used by his worshipers as his symbol. They believe that Jesus died, not on a two-beam cross, but on an upright stake, in accordance with the interpretation of the Greek word Ã??Ã??Ã?±Ã??Ã??Ã??Ã?? (stauros). In classical Greek, this word meant merely an upright stake, or pole. Later it also came to be used for an execution stake having a crosspiece.[9]

So it wasnt until later that it stauros meant cross. Your bible even says “he hangeth on a tree” not a cross.

[/quote]

Yeah, so I’m going to go with Early Church Fathers for 500, Alex. What is tradition of the early Church?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< Yeah, so I’m going to go with Early Church Fathers for 500, Alex. What is tradition of the early Church?[/quote]LOL! Chris took his funny pills today boys n girls, LOL!

Zeb, you keep spouting off about the same things and I’ve addressed your above issues several times by using the Bible. You’re wrong, back in the 1880’s JW’s firmly said that the end would come in 1914 and that was because people were able to figure how long Jerusalem would be trampled on and when the Gentile Times would end based on what Jesus said at Luke 21:24.

They looked to 1914 as a year of significance but did not understand exactly what would happen. Several years before 1914, there were articles printed in the monthly journal the Watchtower stating that what they thought was going to happen (the end coming) might not happen like they think and it if that was the case then it was because they did not fully understand what would happen once the Gentile Times ended. 1914 is the ONLY date that JW’s firmly believed the end would come. All of the other dates you stated below are wrong.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
And while I’m at it I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask you exactly when the world will end. I know that as a new cult member I am probably not privy to all of that good stuff, but thought I’d ask anyway.

Since JW predicted the end of the world five times (1914, 1918, 1925, 1942 and 1975) and were obviously wrong each time I think I need to defend that nonsense. So what do I say to those evil doubter’s (they’re mostly girl
scouts) who say that JW have been wrong about these things?

Okay I think that’s all for now.

Nooooo…wait…what about the false prophecies that have come out of the JW? Like the prediction of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob being resurrected and living on the earth by 1925? Hmm…I don’t know what I’ll say when they ask me about that. And also the 1000 year reign of Christ that was supposed to have started in 1975. What about that one? I just want to make sure I have the right answer so I don’t make anyone in the cult look bad - You know me…I’m a team player :slight_smile:

Okay I want to make sure I get this right:[[/quote]

Man, you really need to read the Bible for yourself instead of just listening to what your preachers or ministers say. There are many examples in the Bible that show that God does not always use his power of foreknowledge meaning that he is not always all-knowing. He has the power to be but he uses it selectively. I’ll give you three examples in the Bible among many that shows this.

At Genesis 11:5-8, God is described as directing his attention earthward, surveying the situation at Babel, and, at that time, determining the action to be taken to break up the unrighteous project there. At Genesis 18:20-22 and 19:1 after wickedness developed at Sodom and Gomorrah, Jehovah advised Abraham of his decision to investigate (by means of his angels) to “see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it.”

At Genesis 18:19 and 22:11 God spoke of ‘becoming acquainted with Abraham,’ and after Abraham went to the point of attempting to sacrifice Isaac, Jehovah said, “For now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.” At Nehemiah 9:7 and 8, speaking of Abraham it states God “found” his heart faithful before him. And at Galatians 4:9 it states: “But now that you have come to know God, or rather now that you have come to be known by God.

Again, read the Bible because according to the Bible there are examples where God chose not to know the outcome situations or where he turned his attention to a situation to get all of the facts.

See below answer.

Zeb, do you even know what the word angel means. I’d bet money that you don’t. Both the Hebrew malakh and the Greek aggelos literally mean “messenger.” And according to Jesus’ own statement at John 17:5, Jesus was in heaven at his fathers side before earth was created. Meaning that he was a spirit creature like God Almighty his Father and he had an identity other than Jesus before he came to earth. There are several reasons we believe that Michael was Jesus in his prehuman existence.

I’ll list a few. Only Michael is given the title archangel which means “chief angle” or “principle angle.” The term occurs in the Bible only in the singular which would imply that there is but one whom God has designated chief, or head, of the angelic host. At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the voice of the resurrected Jesus Christ is described as being that of an archangel, suggesting that he is, in fact, himself the archangel. This text depicts him as descending from heaven with " an archangels voice, a commanding call."

It is only logical that the voice expressing this commanding call be described by a word that would not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus now has as “King of kings and Lord of lords.” If the designation “archangel” applied, not to Jesus Christ, but to other angels, then the reference to “an archangel’s voice” would not be appropriate. In that case it would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God.

Now once Jesus came to earth and maintained his integrity until death, God exalted him. Do you know what exalted means? Act 2:33 states that “he was exalted to the right hand of God” and Philippians 2:9 states God “exalted him to a superior position.” This means Jesus was moved up a notch or was given a higher position than he previously had. I’ll try to put this in plain English. Before Jesus came to earth he was the foremost angel or messenger of God.

Once Jesus remained faithful until death, God rewarded him by exalting him to a higher position. Once he was exalted, meaning elevated or raised in rank, he was no longer a messenger which is the meaning of angel. Hebrews 1:3,4 makes this clear: “and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places. 4 So he has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.”

Again you’re wrong Zeb. According to the Bible Jesus is not an angel because according to the verse above he BECAME better than the angels due to the fact that God has allowed him to sit at the right hand of his Majesty which is the exalted, superior position that God gave him. Now this is where the trinity teaching completely ruins ones ability to reason from the Bible.

Instead of looking at the above Bible verses and saying “Jesus was exalted meaning he was given a position that at one time he did not have and he BECAME better than the angels due to the sacrifice he made. This would mean that at one time he was like the angels who are messengers of God and since he’s at God’s right had he can not be God Alimighty. Hmmm…I think I’ll investigate this further.”

Instead, the people who believe the trinity are taught that the concept is beyond humans to fully understand so when trinity believers come across clear statements in the Bible about God and Jesus, sadly they can’t fully comprehend them because they use the reasoning that the clear statements like what I mentioned above is an example where the human mind can’t fully grasp the trinity concept. So they ignore clear direct scriptures and stick to a concept that doesn’t make sense and that is truly sad.

Of course there is a heaven which is where Jehovah, Jesus and the other spirit creatures reside. Satan and his demons once resided there as well. But according to Luke 12:32 only a “Little Flock” has been approved to be part of the heavenly kingdom. Meaning a limited number of people have the privilege to rule with Jesus as part of his kingdom. The rest of God’s faithful servants will live forever on earth. Jesus himself said this during the sermon on the mount at Matthew 5:3,5. He gave two hopes a heavenly hope and a earthly hope.

No where in the Bible is the term hell mentioned. The only modern Bible that uses the term hell is the King James version which uses hell in place of the Greek word Hades. Revelation 20:14 states that Hades or hell(KJV) is thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur along with death murders and fornicators to name a few. Hades means the common grave of mankind. So Hades along with Death being thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur symbolizes complete destruction meaning that there is going to be a time when there is no death or grave of mankind.

Once one pays the penalty that they inherited from Adam they simply return to the dust and according to Psalms 146:4 their thoughts perish.

Of course not. These holiday originated from pagans meaning they originated from people who did not worship God. The science channels such as the History Channel and National Geographic usually have excellent shows about the origin of these holidays.

Of course not. At Matthew 13:34,35 Jesus gave his disciples a new commandment which was to love one another and he said that the love they show among themselves will identify them as his disciples. If you’re willing to go to war and kill people of the same faith then it is impossible to have love among yourselves and this will show that these groups are NOT Jesus’ true disciples. Jesus along with the other Gospel writers such as Paul and James said to love your neighbor has yourself. Again, if you’re willing to go to war and kill people then it would be impossible to love your neighbor as yourself.

I don’t know why you keep saying that. I love Girl Scout cookies.

Zeb, you calling us a cult show your ignorance. Do some research on a cult and you’ll see that we are no where near a cult. Cults are normally small, fringe groups whose members derive their identity and purpose from a single, charismatic individual. This cult leader usually proclaims that he is sent by God or he personification of God.

The members exhibit excessive devotion to the cult leader and the cult leader employs unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control to advance the goals of the leader. The cult leaders usually have complete control over the members lives so much so that husbands often allow their wives to have sex with the cult leader. Cults often are secretive and try to seclude themselves from society.

JW’s don’t follow any human leader nor do we try to be secretive or live in seclusion. We are as open as a group can be. All of our meetings are open to the public for anyone to come in and join us and we regularly dispense literature that talks about our beliefs. And ALL of our beliefs are based on any translation of the Bible. None of it is based on theological reasoning or man’s view point. Do your homework before you make groundless statements like JW’s are a cult.

Mse2us, I’m curious why you believe the wicked are destroyed, since the bible repeatedly states that they suffer forever:

Matthew 18:8, 25:41
Everlasting fire

Matthew 25:46
Everlasting punishment

Mark 3:29
Eternal damnation

Jude 1:7
Eternal fire

Matthew 3:12, Mark 9:43, Luke 3:17
Unquenchable fire

2 Peter 2:17
Mist of darkness is reserved forever

Jude 1:13
For whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever

[quote]mse2us wrote:

JW’s don’t follow any human leader nor do we try to be secretive or live in seclusion. We are as open as a group can be. All of our meetings are open to the public for anyone to come in and join us and we regularly dispense literature that talks about our beliefs. And ALL of our beliefs are based on any translation of the Bible. None of it is based on theological reasoning or man’s view point. Do your homework before you make groundless statements like JW’s are a cult.

[/quote]

JW’s are a cult. And they’ve made predictions that the world was coming to and end on at least 3 different occasions, all of them of course wrong. They will not serve in the military. They do not believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. They do not think that God is omnipotent. They do not believe there is a hell. And they think only 144,000 people (all JW’s) will be going to heaven. They think that people just fade away when they die, no everlasting sole.

Of course your open you go door to door and prey on the most lonely of people. You are just about the opposite of Christian. And as I’ve said many times if Satan could have a religion which deceived people JW would just about fit his perfect mold.

1-Christ is not the son of God

2-The Trinity destroyed

3-No hell (so don’t worry about it have fun wink)

4-You just fade away when you die no problem

5-God is not omnipotent----hey he’s just a God

Good try, but I know what you are and calling you a cult is really the kindest words I have for you. Now run along I’m sure you have more literature to study from that crazy old man who founded your cult in the 1800’s.

I’d actually be laughing at you right now if I didn’t know for a fact that you’ve lead people away from Christ and eternal salvation. And that is very sad indeed.

I have more respect for an agnostic who steps back and wonders if there is a God. At least they are not deceiving others and leading them away from Christ.

Honestly you make me sick.

Edit: Sorry that could have been the burrito I had for lunch.

(1 John 4:7-8) Beloved ones, let us continue loving one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born from God and gains the knowledge of God. 8 He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love.

(Romans 6:7) For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.

(Luke 23:43) And he said to him: â??Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.â??

(Isaiah 25:8) He will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will certainly wipe the tears from all faces. And the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for Jehovah himself has spoken [it].

(Isaiah 65:17-24) â??For here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart. 18 But exult, YOU people, and be joyful forever in what I am creating. For here I am creating Jerusalem a cause for joyfulness and her people a cause for exultation. 19 And I will be joyful in Jerusalem and exult in my people; and no more will there be heard in her the sound of weeping or the sound of a plaintive cry.â?? 20 â??No more will there come to be a suckling a few days old from that place, neither an old man that does not fulfill his days; for one will die as a mere boy, although a hundred years of age; and as for the sinner, although a hundred years of age he will have evil called down upon him. 21 And they will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat [their] fruitage. 22 They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be; and the work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full. 23 They will not toil for nothing, nor will they bring to birth for disturbance; because they are the offspring made up of the blessed ones of Jehovah, and their descendants with them. 24 And it will actually occur that before they call out I myself shall answer; while they are yet speaking, I myself shall hear.

(Isaiah 11:6-9) And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. 7 And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. 8 And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. 9 They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea.

(Revelation 21:3-4) With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: â??Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.â??

[quote]forlife wrote:
Mse2us, I’m curious why you believe the wicked are destroyed, since the bible repeatedly states that they suffer forever:

Matthew 18:8, 25:41
Everlasting fire

Matthew 25:46
Everlasting punishment

Mark 3:29
Eternal damnation

Jude 1:7
Eternal fire

Matthew 3:12, Mark 9:43, Luke 3:17
Unquenchable fire

2 Peter 2:17
Mist of darkness is reserved forever

Jude 1:13
For whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever

[/quote]
Good question! First let’s look at what the Israelite believed and what is taught in the Hebrew scriptures. Faithful Israelites believed that the dead would be resurrected based on what is in the Hebrew scriptures. Several scriptures that support this are:
Hosea 13:14 - “From the hand of Sheol I shall redeem them; from death I shall recover them.”

Isaiah 26:19 - “Your dead ones will live. A corpse of mine-they will rise up. Awake and cry out joyfully, you residents in the dust! For your dew is as the dew of mallows, and the earth itself will let even those impotent in death drop in birth.”

Daniel 12:2 - "And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches and to indefinitely lasting abhorrence."b

What Jesus said to Martha at John 11:24 is further proof. When Jesus said her brother Lazarus will rise she then responded that she knew he would rise during the resurrection on the last day.

Jesus believed in the resurrection which is why he said at John 5:28 that all those in the memorial tombs will here is voice and come out. And at Matthew 22:23-34 the Sadducees who didn’t believe in the resurrection, tried to stump Jesus with a question because Jesus believed and taught the resurrection.

Did you know Forlife that the Jews had no concept of being resurrected and going to heaven? That’s because no where in the Hebrew scriptures is this hope given to them. All throughout the Hebrew scriptures the resurrection hope is mentioned, but never is it connected with going to heaven. Did you also know that everyone who died prior to Jesus dying do not have the heavenly hope. That means Noah, Abraham, Moses and David did not have the heavenly hope. Act 2:34 plainly states - "Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, 'Jehovah said to my Lord: Sit at my right hand. John the Baptist was the first person to talk about the Kingdom of the heavens but since he died before Jesus died not even he has the privilege of going to heaven. That’s why Jesus said at Matthew 11:11-15 referring to John the Baptist - “Truly I say to you people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.” Why did Jesus say that?
It’s because the people who have the heavenly hope will be resurrected as immortal, spirit creatures. Once that happens they will be greater than John the Baptist who doesn’t have the heavenly hope and will be resurrected as a human on earth. If John had the heavenly hope and was to be part of the Kingdom of the heavens then Jesus would not have made that statement because the lesser ones, referred to in the above scripture, would be equal to John because they both would be a part of the kingdom of the heavens as immortal, spirit creatures. But that’s not the case because John the Baptist won’t be part of the kingdom of the heaven and the people who will be part of the kingdom of the heavens will be greater than John. Further proof that none who died before Jesus went to heaven is at John 3:13 where Jesus states that “no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the son of man.” That verse means that when Jesus made that statement, no human and ever ascended to heaven as a spirit being.

Also, all throughout the Bible when people die they are referred to as sleeping. There are dozens of scriptures that state this. I’ll list a few.

Psalms 13:3 - “Do look upon me; answer me, O Jehovah my God. Do make my eyes shine, that I may not fall asleep in death.”

Matthew 9:24 - "Jesus began to say: “Leave the place, for the little girl did not die, but she is sleeping.”

Acts 7:60 - Then, bending his knees, he cried out with a strong voice: “Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them.” And after saying this he fell asleep in death."

The term sleeping being used for death shows that the faithful Jews and the Christians knew that when someone died that this was not the end for that person. That’s because when someone goes to sleep they can be waken and when someone dies God can awaken them enabling them to live again.

The point of what I wrote above is to again show that the faithful servants of God believed that death was not the end because they would get a second chance to live again through the resurrection. Notice how Job explains death. Job 14:14 states - “If an able-bodied man dies can he live again? All the days of my compulsory service I shall wait, Until my relief comes.” Job here is saying that living again will bring relief from the restraint of death.

Now to answer your question. Since God’s faithful servants understood and believed that death is not the end because they won’t be dead forever and as Martha said about her brother Lazarus will be resurrected, the Bible uses terms to distinguish the death inherited from Adam that all humans must suffer but are resurrected from and the second death that there is no resurrection from. The best way to do this is to use fire to distinguish between the two types of death. Think back to the listeners when Jesus made the statements about everlasting fire and fiery furnace. Fire and heat are the most destructive force in nature. So when the term fire is used in conjunction with something being destroyed the listeners of that time would of understood that the fire would completely consume and completely destroy whatever is in the fire. They would not have thought that any part of a person thrown into fire would survive. I’ll illustrate this in terms we would use today to signify complete annihilation. If someone wanted to completely annihilate someone they would use a term such as “drop a nuclear bomb on that person” because that is the most destructive thing we have today. If anyone today heard that they would immediately understand that if that happened, the unfortunate victim would be vaporized or completely destroyed there would not only be zero chance of survival but there would be nothing left of that person. Fire would be the same back in Bible times as a nuclear bomb would be today - complete destruction. Adding everlasting to fire would symbolize not only complete destruction but no chance of ever coming back from this type of death because unlike the death we inherit from Adam according to Romans 5:12 which is dying and returning back to dust which people are relieved from by being resurrected, people who die by everlasting fire will not be resurrected.

Revelation symbolizes this destruction where there is no relief from by using the term Lake of Fire and says this means the second death. One way to show from the Bible that the Lake of Fire symbolizes eternal destruction is to look at what is thrown into the lake of fire. Isaiah 25:8 states - “He will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will certainly wipe the tears from all faces.”
1 Corinthians 15:54 states that “Death is swallowed up forever.”
Revelation 20:14 symbolizes death being swallowed up forever by both death and Hades which means the grave, being thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur. Once death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire then death will be gone or swallowed up forever - death and the grave will never come back.

So yes the things that are destroyed by the everlasting fire which is symbolized by the lake of fire and sulfur in Revelation are punished forever because they will die due to the second death and there punishment is being dead forever. Again, this is different from the people who died from the Adamic punishment that was passed to us which is dying and returning to dust because according to the scriptures I listed at the start of this post, those people’s death won’t be everlasting because they will be relieved of their restraint by being resurrected.

One more point that most people miss. The Bible clearly states at Romans 6:23 that the price for sinning is dying. That means that the penalty that was given to Adam which is dying and returning to the dust, according to Genesis 3:19, is the same penalty that all his descendants inherited. Once they pay this penalty by dying their sins are forgiven according to Romans 6:7 and they will be given a second chance by being resurrected. That is why Luke said at Act 24:15 that there is “going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” So that means that when people die from old age, sickness or accident they have then paid the penalty they inherited from Adam and they will be given a second chance. When one succumbs to this death they return to dust and as Psalm 146:4 states their thoughts do perish." Since the dead are conscience of nothing according to Ecclesiastes 9:5 they are likened to sleeping waiting to be awaken or resurrected by God.

This raises a question: when are people killed by being thrown into the lake of fire or being part of the second death?

(Job 34:10) Therefore, YOU men of heart, listen to me. Far be it from the [true] God to act wickedly, And the Almighty to act unjustly!

(Ecclesiastes 9:5) For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.

[quote]mse2us wrote:
John the Baptist was the first person to talk about the Kingdom of the heavens but since he died before Jesus died not even he has the privilege of going to heaven. That’s why Jesus said at Matthew 11:11-15 referring to John the Baptist - “Truly I say to you people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.” Why did Jesus say that?
[/quote]

Because, the least in Heaven are more righteous than the most righteous on earth.