ZEB said:
How many American soldiers DIED as a direct result of that lie?
Do you have a problem with that lie? If so, then you probably really have a problem with Bush, who has so far lied under oath MANY times. So has Rumsfeld. Under your standards, should they be impeached?
Right. Clinton was also impeached for lying.
As should Dubya. According to the news, GW personally signed papers authorizing that the Geneva Conventions need not be enforced. Then he plays dumb when prisoners are abused. These people do not feel bad about the Iraqi prisoners being tortured, they only feel bad about being CAUGHT.
The Geneva Conventions were good enough for us when battling the Nazis (I believe) so why wouldn’t they be good enough to be used during our little adventure in Iraq?
i’m really trying hard to be politically objective here but why does Roy Batty sound so damn much smarter here? can any of you on the right come up with a logical position??? i have a question…is modern society smarter than it was 50 years ago? i think so. is modern society more tolerant and liberal than it was 50 years ago? i think so. therefore why are we electing intolerant conservatives in this modern society. is this a bump in the road? where are we headed?
If the current administration has anything to say about it we are headed towards Armageddon. The self-fulfulling prophecies are always the best ones.
So by your analysis it is okay to lie under oath as long as no one dies.
Its never ok but what is worse?
" ZEB said:
Your hero Bill Clinton lied under oath.
How many American soldiers DIED as a direct result of that lie?
Do you have a problem with that lie? If so, then you probably really have a problem with Bush, who has so far lied under oath MANY times. So has Rumsfeld. Under your standards, should they be impeached? "
Think before you talk. There is no one lying under oath here. You cant throw around unfounded accusations and hope that they will stick.
And for the Record the current version of the Geneva Conventions was not signed till 1957, so they were not in effect in their modern incarnation during WWII.
I believe, and correct me if I’m wrong, that all politicians lie. Unless its Jimmy Stewart movie.
Besides, who wouldn’t want to march into battle under orders of Dubya, the finest military mind since Napoleon Bonaparte?
Oh, it wasn’t under oath. Okay, so if it’s a blue moon and he’s got his finger crossed or up his ass or whatever, he can lie all he wants and it is okay.
Fine, but I wish somebody would explain the rules to me so I’d know for sure.
I’d much rather have political leaders lie about their personal lives than matters of import. Unless Clinton was buggering Saddam I don’t think any of us really need to care.
How come the right is always drawing simple and stupid analogies? Are Bush supporters simply as dumb as Bush is? Do they need shock jocks to do their thinking for them? Do the even think at all?
I remember a time when “morality” and “right and wrong” were important. There was outrage due to BJ’s occuring in the presidency. Now, we have state sponsored torture and abuse given the wink and the nod by the administration and nobody gives a shit.
Folks, you have lost all perspective in this false patriotism. Anyone who criticizes is obviously “one of them”… what a joke. This is all going to come tumbling down and be recognized as one of the stupidest times in American history.
The country with the most promise lead by the most inept leaders of all time. Take hundreds of years of honor, respect and moral high ground and stomp all over it. Mark my words, the price is going to be high, and that is very very sad.
Lady liberty isn’t a lady anymore…
Wow a canadian bagging on Americans, what a new and wonderful concept. Don’t be jealous or we’ll turn your country into a Super Walmart. As for analogies-“as dumb as Bush” good job proving your point there retard. I guess arguing politics is akin to arguing religion so I give up, I’ll agree to disagree, drop this debate, finsh of my six pack of shiner and call it a night.
ZEB…looks like you’re up to your old games again…
I object far greater to the money, press, and energy spent on the “Clinton-Lewinsky” scandal and the Kenneth Star treatment that Clinton endured than I do to the denial Clinton spoke about cheating. The guy cheats…not a good thing, but not an offense worth the legal prodding he was exposed to in what boiled down to a right wing smear campaign.
Remember Bob Barr? One of Clinton’s biggest critics in that whole matter? CHEATER! Newt Gingrich? CHEATER (and, how many wives?)!
Such a silly thing…I’m (perhaps not so) surprised you’d bring it up here, ZEBster.
It is apparent that the Bush Admin have tried to carve out a new legal framework that would allow them to bypass the Geneva Accords (unlawful non-combatant), but this does not apply to Abu Ghraib because it is a military prison guarded by military MPs and soldiers.
Therefore if Rumsfeld authorized Copper Green plan for humiliation and torture then he will be gone.
Should he be brought up on War Crimes charges Bush has signed a provision authorizing a military invasion of the Netherlands in case any US official is brought up on charges.
Hows that for telling the rest of the world to fuck off?
“I’d like to have a word with Dick Cheney when hes chained up in his prison cell next to Milosevic” - Henry Rollins
The road to hell is paved with…
I see…if the offense is seemingly insignigicant then it’s okay to lie? Is that what your liberal profs. are telling you RightSideUp?
Reading this post, it seems that if one agrees with Roy then they are accused of being a “yellow dog” democrat. My position is that they all suck, they are all liars and they all want to get (re)elected.
Clinton was a whore - not just sexually but in many ways. He was the consumate politician whispering into the publics ear just in order to get into their pants. He was a liar with no honor or character ( and his wife is a raging bitch).
Bush is an idiot who got his daddys machine to buy the white house for him. The Bush machine destroys anyone who gets in their way. I am humiliated that “rat boy” (my favorite name for him) is our president. Everything he does is calculated towards relection. This war was waged based upon a desire to show daddy he could get the job done and to get access to the oil so he would be loved by all us SUV owners. Do you think we’d be spending this kind of money and manpower, if Bush didn’t think we could get control over the oil reserves. It’s a disaster and it was wrong to start it. He’s a liar too. But he’s a stupid liar. He could never survive if he didn’t have his fathers machine working to protect him.
Kerry - well don’t know too much about him as I have not had to endure his presidency (yet). I’m sure he’s a liar too. I’m sure he has his own agenda and folks he is obliged too should he get elected.
They are all liars and bastards and they all have their own agendas. That’s why they get into politics in the first place and do well at it. They all have to suck up to the special interests and lobbyists to get their funding. Yeah I’m jaded - seen to much, heard too much bullshit in my many years. Now I just let it flow off my back, try to work hard and stay under the radar. Yes, I vote in every election, am the daughter of a naval officer and know what the words honor and character mean. So far I haven’t seen any.
gojira
Isn’t that the human elemant, power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely. I agree with you, I think it is naive to believe anyone is 100% good or evil, but with this current administration I have never seen such blatant narcissistic, selfrighteous, arrogance, in my life!
I was just a child during the Vietnam era, so I don’t know the feelings of discord from that era, but I almost feel like there is civil war going on now in our country, and this President is a uniter!
I have served with an honorable discharge during a war, I love to hunt and fish and own many firearms, I believe in a strong defense, but when I state the fact that I am against this war because the facts don’t add up to me, I am labeled a tree hugging liberal hippy!
The mentality of many of these rightwingers, many who have not served like the current regime to talk, so tough when they give up nothing, they talk of ass kicking and courage, but what are they doing going to their 9 to 5’s.
That angers me the most! I wish we could send a platoon over there for combat headed by Bush and Cheney with Sean hannity, Ann Coulter, Bill Oreilly, and a few of the war supporters on this forum, and see if there perspective changes once they were facing the shit!
I am done with my rant. Doogie, Rainjack, Zeb, feel free to open fire!
To Lumpy:
You said I “condone torture.” I never said that, I repeated an opinion given to me from someone’s son who is in the armed forces. And I believe I stated that clearly. I do not condone torture. You must be a Democrat the way you lashed back. Seems they(DEMs) are always taking things out of context. By the way, what were your thoughts on 9/11, poor terrorists in the airplane, they died? Did you think of revenge or we need to get them all? On that day in history, a new era was born. We have to protect what is ours. Think about what you would do to protect your family. Anything right? So would I, anything. The President, whoever it is, has to look at the USA as his family. I thing we need to change the way things are done. The USA has been so open for so long, criminals have more rights that the victims, and a lot of time people take their freedom way to far saying they have the right when it violates someone elses right that their own freedom!
And I think you mentioned something about morals? Do you read the paper or watch the news? The only other country I have spent much time in is Thailand, and that doesn’t count because there are no moral standards there. But stop and think about the morals we read and here about everday here in the US. Example: Woman spills hot coffee in her lap and sues fast food chain for millions of dollars. Man sues tobacco company because he got cancer. And wins! This was also a new legal era where stupid ass lawsuits increased our cost of living beyond our year salary increases. Morallity with lawyers making millions from bullshit. Think about things like this when you read them. It does effect you, now your coffe costs more wherever you buy it because of this. These lawsuits are also the reason our insurances are so high. Examples: A mother, father, woman, or man admits to drowning, stabbing, shooting, or beating a 12 month old baby to death. Why should this person have a right to defend themselves? There should be no trial, just quick execution. Example: Person sues state, school, or city because their child heard someone say a prayer. I don’t push my religion on you, so why does someone want to push their nonreligious beliefs on me. And for some reason they have the right to do that, but not I. Example: Partial Birth abortion, do you know what this is. Let me tell you. It is when the baby is born feet first, leaving the head still inside the womb. Then a pair a scissors are used to punture through the back of the neck cut the spinal cord and killing the baby. This is done up to like the 36 week range I believe. Full term is 40 weeks! Where is the morallity in that! I am all for woman’s right so son’t take that out of context. But when it comes to children, born or still in the womb, that is where my heart is at. You will have to answer to mistakes and chooses that you made it life. But those little souls never get that chance. They are taken from them by someone else. Well sorry for all of that. Nothing directed at anyone, I just started typing and needed to get it out. I do agree that there are lots and lots of things that are wrong in the world. I don’t think the Republicans, Democrats, or whatever party will fix them either. We as a poeple need to take a stand and fix them. And as long as we let the politicians make millions of dollars a year, don’t think that they really give a shit about you and you family. They are set for life and have their names in all the books. Hope I didn’t offend anyone by anything I wrote. I just need to blow off a little steam.
Should I be amazed or baffled? How can any of you continue to argue when the story of what happened is in black and white at the top of this thread? The Bushies in here have a double standard on lying I guess. It is immoral and evil if you got a hummer and lied about it, but okay as long as it involves the military?
One more time… I challenge any one of you mental monoliths to address my original post item by item and tell me how the president and Sec. State did not lie when they were pressed for information a few weeks ago and said that it was the first they had heard of it. That is a LIE! They not only knew of it, they signed the order that allowed for more aggressive interrogation techniques that were a clear violation of the Geneva Convention. Maybe they can weasil out on some legal wordsmithing, but the fact is that they pretended to be ignorant of it when they actually knew of it and condoned it. Lets address the evidence. Read the fucking article! Challenge my logic, NOT ME! All these posts about “bravery and character of our soldiers who have made sacrifices so dirtbags like me can say disparaging things about our great president” is off the point, and it is a great tactic for people who don’t have a leg to stand on in an argument. If you don’t have a logical explanation, or cannot come up with a reasonable explanation as to why it is okay to lie about this, please just concede and shut up!
EH1 -
You don’t feel that we are justified in going to war in Iraq. I can see why you would be against our presence there, based on your perspective. The biggest difference betwen you and me… or any of these rep v. dem fights is the difference in our perspectives. (I know, some real ground-breaking shit, huh,?)
I don’t think we need to justify being over there just as we don’t need to justify our treatment of the prisoners in Abu Grahib (sp?). There were 3000 dead bodies at the bottom of the WTC 2 1/2 years ago - that changed all of the rules as far as I’m concerned.
We are the biggest, strongest and meanest SOB’s on the block. I think it’s high time we started acting like it, and quit letting a bunch of little fucking chihuahua’s nip at our heels. If that means going to war with a country that may or may not posess WMD’s - so be it.
Is there any logical person out there who doesn’t see that Iraq was a threat, or at the very least a menace to our way of life? I’m not going to apologize, or acquiese to these people because we don’t have the proper proof.
I would love to see us keep the ball rolling and crush Saudi Arabia’s two-faced kingdom of cowards. I don’t want to stop until these radical freaks are forced out of every country giving aid to them - and that won’t happen with us voluntarily tying our hands behind our backs.
The democratic party is full of apologists and euro-sympathizers. Does each side lie cheat and steal to gain an edge? - you’re damn skippy they do.
Are Clinton’s lies ‘better’ than Bush’s? It’s all depending on your perspective - no one will be proven right or wrong in this argument.
That’s my rant -
Rainjack said:
[quote]I don’t think we need to justify being over there just as we don’t need to justify our treatment of the prisoners in Abu Grahib (sp?). There were 3000 dead bodies at the bottom of the WTC 2 1/2 years ago - that changed all of the rules as far as I’m concerned.
We are the biggest, strongest and meanest SOB’s on the block. I think it’s high time we started acting like it, and quit letting a bunch of little fucking chihuahua’s nip at our heels. If that means going to war with a country that may or may not posess WMD’s - so be it.
Is there any logical person out there who doesn’t see that Iraq was a threat, or at the very least a menace to our way of life? I’m not going to apologize, or acquiese to these people because we don’t have the proper proof.
I would love to see us keep the ball rolling and crush Saudi Arabia’s two-faced kingdom of cowards. I don’t want to stop until these radical freaks are forced out of every country giving aid to them - and that won’t happen with us voluntarily tying our hands behind our backs.
The democratic party is full of apologists and euro-sympathizers. Does each side lie cheat and steal to gain an edge? - you’re damn skippy they do.
[/quote]
sigh
We’re all goin’ to Hell!