"Trying to eliminate Saddam would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. There was no viable exit strategy we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land.
Rainjack as Lumpy pointed out on another thread the above is from George Bush Seniors memoirs.
I remember being a 22 yr old e-4 in the Navy during the end of the first Gulf war, and thinking why in the world didn’t the Prez keep on rolling into Baghdad! At the time I thought it was stupidity, now
I can see the wisdom in it!
To bad the son doesn’t have the fathers wisdom!
And don’t tell me its different now because of 9/11, if we were really taking care of the war on terror we would be concentrating on other countrys and not creating more terrorist in Iraq!
I think those who are reading this thread have enough sense to read the post as presented - I don’t know if you are trying to make yourself look smarter, or prove yourself to be on some higher plane of consciousness than me, but dude - all you did was copy, paste and add a sentence.
You want an answer to your original question? - fine
For starters - the story has no legs - that means it is either baseless, or the elite media has found out that there is a damn good reason for this alleged lying spree.
Exactly what do you want for those of us who support the President and the war effort to say about these ‘lies’?
Bush and his staff is working to give our military every advantage on the battlefield - this is to include suspension of the Geneva Conventions, and less than conventional treatment of prisoners. I support him in these efforts to destroy an enemy that has american blood on its hands, lying or not. Do I need to explain to you why? Nope.
“Think before you talk. There is no one lying under oath here.”
Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz were under oath last week when they said that they hadn’t heard about Irqi prisoner abuse until January of this year.
In light of the Newsweek and New Yorker articles, I am sure that people are reviewing Rumsfeld’s testimony to see if he perjured himself.
I watched all 6 hours of testimony before the Senate and House Armed Services committee (love that C-SPAN) and I am going to guess that Rumsfeld’s toast, if any of this Copper Green stuff is true.
I’m going to bet that Bush is too weak to fire him, though. Bush’s just a figurehead for the Cheneys, Roves and Rumsfelds who actually run the White House. Poor sap.
Roy- Do you even train? Why the hell do you go to a place like Testosterone magazine and spend 99 percent of your time posting in the off topic section?
For starters - the story has no legs - that means it is either baseless, or the elite media has found out that there is a damn good reason for this alleged lying spree.
Great. Now we are going somewhere. First, Newsweek is elite media? CBS is elite? Now NPR may be elite, I’ll give you that, but NW and CBS are both as mainstream as they get. Are you saying that they fabricated all the documents that they were able to obtain? You are saying that this is an elaborate plot by ALL media sources to dethrone Bush by creating documents out of thin air? If so, why haven’t they said anything to this nature? Furthermore, both Bush and Cheney refused to swear in before their testimony before the 9/11 commission. Then they proceeded to lie for the next 4 hours. Since all this information hit the media, it now looks like they at least legally (certainly not ethically) covered their butts since they technically weren’t under oath.
Exactly what do you want for those of us who support the President and the war effort to say about these ‘lies’?
To admit that the Commander in Chief is a liar, and quite possibly a war criminal. All the evidence is laid out before you. It is incontravertable.
Bush and his staff is working to give our military every advantage on the battlefield - this is to include suspension of the Geneva Conventions, and less than conventional treatment of prisoners. I support him in these efforts to destroy an enemy that has american blood on its hands, lying or not. Do I need to explain to you why? Nope.
Clearly NOT the words of a veteran. Most combat veterans who were prisoners of war where the Geneva conventions were not upheld (like McCain) were not real happy about it. If our soldiers are taken prisoner, there is a little comfort in knowing that ememies who lay down arms and surrender will be treated humanely. In war, ALL enemies have the blood of their enemies on their hands. Your logic is extremely flawed. Where I understand your passion, it is misplaced because it basically puts our soldiers in MORE harm’s way than they were before. Plus, we are supposed to be noble soldiers. We are Americans, Dammit! If we fight a war, we can’t forget who we are and act like it. Not like a bunch of 3rd graders who got pushed down in the playground. I have family in Iraq this very moment, and since the abuse scandal broke, I have never feared more for their safety.
Many of the abused prisoners were abducted in the US, and were US citizens. They were taken to detention camps (which smacks of the old facist governments) where they were locked up and given no due process of law. We are a nation of laws. Innocent until proven guilty, yet we have let this administration strip away our civil liberties giving them the right to go above the law and imprison Americans with no rights whatsoever. Its all fine and good until you or someone you love is snatched.
I didn’t mean to sound elitist in my first reply to your post. I was feeling defeated. The only hope we have is the truth, and if we don’t wake up and pay attention it won’t matter any more. We won’t be a free nation. I am not okay with that.
9/11 did change everything. If George Bush the father had known in 1991 that the U.N. would allow 17 resolutions regarding Iraq to go unenforced, or that there would be open season on American interests because of a president that was more interested in getting his rocks off than fighting terrorism, then I would be willing to bet cash money he would have marched on Baghdad. (I know that’s a long sentence, but I’m all hopped up on green tea and chicken breasts) This is a point of argument that I’ll agree to disagree with you on, and move on.
"To admit that the Commander in Chief is a liar, and quite possibly a war criminal. All the evidence is laid out before you. It is incontravertable. "
If only we were in Britain and you could get arrested for liable for things like this. Stop throwing shit around and hoping it will stick. Your statements are unfounded and your conclusions are false. I watched all their testimonies too. They did NOTHING wrong.
Which part of my conclusions is wrong? Let’s do this little logical thingie again…
Two weeks ago Bush and Rumsfeld acted like they had just learned of the systematic mistreatment of soldiers. They both testified that they knew nothing of it until just recently.
The newest EVIDENCE from documents acquired by several mainstream news sources shows that they both colluded with Gonzales to strip down the Geneva conventions to allow for aggressive interrogations whereby humilation, dogs, and other things we have all seen in graphic photos, were standard operating procedure. These documents were dated back last year! THey also received reports back in November that rape and murder was taking place and they quietly discharged the soldiers, trying to keep this whole thing under wraps. These documents are the veritable smoking guns!
Actually speaking the truth about this administration makes the writer sound like they are STARK RAVING MAD!!
You’re right as long as lying and deception are not bad things. Maybe you should open your eyes.
"1) Two weeks ago Bush and Rumsfeld acted like they had just learned of the systematic mistreatment of soldiers. They both testified that they knew nothing of it until just recently.
2) The newest EVIDENCE from documents acquired by several mainstream news sources shows that they both colluded with Gonzales to strip down the Geneva conventions to allow for aggressive interrogations whereby humilation, dogs, and other things we have all seen in graphic photos, were standard operating procedure. These documents were dated back last year! THey also received reports back in November that rape and murder was taking place and they quietly discharged the soldiers, trying to keep this whole thing under wraps. These documents are the veritable smoking guns! "
Are you retarded? Or did you just not watch the testimony. Rumsfeld never said he did not know about it. He said he had been notified of it but he did not deem it fit to report to congress for both the sanctity of the investigation and because there are over 75,000 military investigations each year and they dont report them to Congress. Both of these claims hold up. Never once did he say he didnt know about the incidents. Its laughable that you would even claim he said that, since the Pentagon made an announcment and the press covered (albeit briefly) the fact that there was an investigation into prisoner torture accusations IN JANUARY.
So yes, your accusations are unfounded and false, and you would be getting arrested for liable if you spoke them in Britain.
Thanks for playing. Please try again when you know what the hell you are talking about.
What a fucking bullshit article and asshole poster. you would actually believe that Bush promotes anti geneva anything? after jumping through so many hoops and obstacles and he is obviously dedicated to seeing this through, that he would allow such a thing? That even whether or not a few soldiers abuse some fucking prisoners would go to the very top of the chain of command for approval? You are a fucking imbecile. Jeez, no wonder I don’t look at this forum anymore.
Yeah, 9/11 DID change everything. It changed this administration from a band of backroom hawks into marauding morons with nary a plan who run roughshod over any and all international laws (unless it aids their cause to mention UN sanctions)with this faith-based, fact free foreign policy.
For the Bush believers, have any of their rosy predictions come true, either in Afghanistan or Iraq?
Last weekend on Meet the Press, Colin Powell admitted that some pre-war WMD intelligence had been “deliberately” distorted, in order to justify the invasion.
Gee, you’d think the Elite Liberal Media would be crawling all over that…
"ast weekend on Meet the Press, Colin Powell admitted that some pre-war WMD intelligence had been “deliberately” distorted, in order to justify the invasion. "
UMMMMMMMMMM no he didnt. Do you guys get the same news in LumpyLand???
bilt…from what I’ve heard from many sources, it’s all but fact that Powell won’t be returning should Bush get a second term. He has apparently had enough and is alienating himself from the madness.
I could be wrong though, let me turn on FOX and check…
I don’t get why having a problem with an incompetent person who has a very powerful position that influences every life in a country I love makes me so “full of hate”… You guys really don’t get me at all. I have a very rich life with a rewarding career and a big, loving family. I truly live the American dream. To make this even more ironic, I work for a Republican Governor (an appointed position) who I really admire. I voted for him and support his leadership. You guys who think that I am just a negative guy just can’t seem to recognize that our president is a fool who has damaged our country. The rest of the world laughs at us now. I love my country, so I feel a responsibility to point out the truth about the chickenhawks who control our country for the moment.
These neocons spend money like drunken sailors, which I just can’t understand how you supposed “conseratives” can justify. My guess is that you are all just fundamentalist idealogues who don’t really care about that as long as you have a president who agrees with your narrow religious views. Or maybe you just like his cowboy style. I don’t know… I’m just trying to imagine how you can’t see how incompetent he is. I guess his ads must be working, and there are enough sheep in the country to keep his approval rating over 40%.
McCain put it really well in his statement today:
[quote]I fondly remember a time when real Republicans stood for fiscal responsibility. Apparently those days are long gone for some in our party."
[/quote]
Transcript from NBC News’ “Meet The Press” May 16, 2004:
Russert: Finally, Mr. Secretary, in February of 2003, you placed your enormous personal credibility before the United Nations and laid out a case against Saddam Hussein citing…
Powell: Not off.
Emily: No. They can’t use it. They’re editing it. They (unintelligible).
Powell: He’s still asking me questions. Tim.
Emily: He was not…
Powell: Tim, I’m sorry, I lost you.
Russert: I’m right here, Mr. Secretary. I would hope they would put you back on camera. I don’t know who did that.
Powell: We really…
Russert: I think that was one of your staff, Mr. Secretary. I don’t think that’s appropriate.
Powell: Emily, get out of the way.
Emily: OK.
Powell: Bring the camera back, please. I think we’re back on, Tim. Go ahead with your last question.
Russert: Thank you very much, sir. In February of 2003, you put your enormous personal reputation on the line before the United Nations and said that you had solid sources for the case against Saddam Hussein. It now appears that an agent called Curveball had misled the CIA by suggesting that Saddam had trucks and trains that were delivering biological and chemical weapons. How concerned are you that some of the information you shared with the world is now inaccurate and discredited?
Powell: I’m very concerned. When I made that presentation in February 2003, it was based on the best information that the Central Intelligence Agency made available to me. We studied it carefully; we looked at the sourcing in the case of the mobile trucks and trains. There was multiple sourcing for that. Unfortunately, that multiple sourcing over time has turned out to be not accurate. And so I’m deeply disappointed. But I’m also comfortable that at the time that I made the presentation, it reflected the collective judgment, the sound judgment of the intelligence community. But it turned out that the sourcing was inaccurate and wrong and in some cases, deliberately misleading. And for that, I am disappointed and I regret it.
Russert: Mr. Secretary, we thank you very much for joining us again and sharing your views with us today.
Powell: Thanks, Tim.
Russert: And that was an unedited interview with the secretary of state taped earlier this morning from Jordan. We appreciate Secretary Powell’s willingness to overrule his press aide’s attempt to abruptly cut off our discussion as I began to ask my final question.
So bilt, Do you get ANY news besides what you hear from Rush, Mike Reagen, Fox, etc? Or do you just selectively ignore facts?