PtrDr
You are clearly biased for the President. Please cease and desist all posts, as we know your position. One last thing PtrDr, I ask you as your posts reflect bravery and commitment are you currently serving? If not have you served in the past? Or, are you like many who are, so vocally supportive of this war, never had your ass on the line?
Good lord… you make me want to puke! Quit wrapping yourself in the flag and address the points of the post. Hijacking the thread to - again - dodge the original intent of the post is using elementary student tactics. Are you not bright enough to analyze data and use logic to make your case? It would seem so since all you have done is try to strip this down to “you haven’t made the sacrifice so you can’t make this argument”. Like I said, that tactic is really getting old.
And anyway, you guys should be careful with that line of argument, considering the pathetic war records of “neo-conservatives” in the Bush Regime. If you have egg in your face on an issue like that the last thing you want to do is draw attention to it. Also, using your logic - that we who have not served can’t question Bush’s actions - you would then agree that none of the current administration had the right to declare war. So if you are in support of the war, I advise abandoning that rationale.
PtrDr
Thank you for responding. I clearly do no agree with you position on this matter, but I do have more respect for since you indeed have put your ass on the line.
I am a Desert Storm veteran and served four years in Naval intelligence. I happen to feel that Roy Batty is clearly on the mark, and aware with no misconceptions regarding the situation we as Americans are in today. I want him to continue to post. I don’t agree with your posts and all kidding aside would not seriously ask you to stop!
“BTW, are you telling me that you approve of torturing and humiliation of the prisoners? When a soldier lays down arms and surrenders, you think that you are fighting “handcuffed” to not be able to torture him?”
I approve of the humiliation of the prisoners. And they aren’t soldiers who surrendered or were captured during the war. They are illegal combatants and terrorists. They weren’t captured wearing uniforms.
Elkhntr1…and I respect your service to this country as well. I missed Desert Storm as I was between my former enlistment and was in college finishing my degree.
I do think that one thing these topics do is show how desperate the Kerry camp is…like I said earlier. And the fact that they are spending so much time and effort deciding who the vice prez running mate should be for Kerry is a dead giveaway the guy is NO WINNER! I mean… to be considering having a good man,like McCain…a republican…to help you win the White House?..it shows how desperate the democratic supporters are! Its actually quite laughable when you set back and consider it from this angle! I mean…who really cares who the Vice prez is??? All we remmember is Bush vs. Gore…Clinton vs. Bush etc. If Kerry was a winner and the democrats knew it…they would have already selected a running mate!..it wouldn’t really matter whom they choose. Again…their desperation is obvious! No offense to you bro!
Their only real good choice is Hillary…but she is running in 2008!!
Rainjack: then why are you people so worried about what people are checking out at the local library? Right wingers are only interested in the freedoms that have been outlined in God’s rule book; at least to the degree they have interpreted it. I’m not interested in legislating the dogma of antiquity. This isn’t in defense of the Left. I’m a Libertarian and think both sides are crazed psychopaths. It shouldn’t take a long time to figure the Right out when they are having works of art covered with blankets because of nudity and going after people selling bongs as if an indigenous plant is the root of all evil. Nobody in the current administration has served like a lot of you people have. Nobody should be gloating because they are the “war president”. Whatever. A friend and I raided and TP’d a National Guard outing one weekend. Their camoflaged tents, trucks, and generators looked rather silly draped with 6 rolls of Charmin. Nobody questioned us when we were going through the checkout lane with 10 dozen eggs and 2 massive packages of toilet paper. Bush is an ex-cokehead alcoholic. I can look at the guy and I can say he beat it and that takes a lot of character. I’m not sure why he’s gloating about being a “war president” like its some kind of honor badge.
Is there not one person in here who can argue the points using logic?
Doogie said:
Doogie, you can use whatever label you want to justify torture, but the fact remains that they are called “human rights” for a reason. Not “uniformed human rights”… If you had children fighting in this war, wouldn’t you want to know that they would treat your son or daughter with the dignity of a soldier? The very fact that people are okay with this type of treatment leads this great country down into the sewers faster than a presidential BJ any day. I hope my children learn to value life more than that. And if the enemy doesn’t? That is their issue… We shouldn’t even care. We have a code of honor and ethics that we should abide by, period.
Why are you okay with horrific violence and against being exposed to sexual scandal? Besides the hypocracy you display here, there is another area that you have completely dodged, and that is the LIE. You have claimed in other previous threads that Clinton’s lie to congress warranted having him removed from office and disbarred, etc., but you don’t hold the current president to the same standard? He lied about so many things that it is hard to keep count. He was telling the nation one thing, while signing secret orders to destroy what reminants of self-respect our military still had. Do you respect Colin Powell? Does it not effect you that HE claimed that this action by the Bush camp would undo over 50 years of diplomacy? Let’s have a little uniformity here!
Its obvious to me that Kerry is a pussy, and Dubya is the man most qualified to order troops into battle since George S. Patton. Or Erwin Rommel.
"As a military man I have no respect for the way he begged for his medals and what he did afterwards with them. It is despicable. "
"November comes down to trust. Who do you trust more? Kerry, or Bush? Who would you trust more as your commanding officer? "
" As for Bush, I appreciate a commander in chief who didn’t duck and run [EVEN THOUGH HE NEVER DID A TOUR OF DUTY IN 'NAM WHILE KEERY DID 2]from this black eye, even though I didn’t vote for him. "
In case some of you don’t know the person who broke these allegations of Rumsfeld authorizing the torture is Sy Hersh, Pulitzer prise winner from the New Yorker - same man that broke the news about the My Lai massacre.
Hersh is meticulous in his research and very careful so I am giving him the benefit of the doubt on this one.
Besides, we all know that some pretty terrible things have been given the green light in times of war. Just watch The Fog Of War - a recent documentary on Robert MacNamara (The Rumsfeld of LBJ’s administration).
It’s not “over” for George Bush. However, his re-election chances are much slimmer today than they were a year ago. If he were facing any kind of challenger from the Democrats, there’d be a new prez in 2005. He may still lose to Kerry but instead I think he’ll win a close election. Kerry is a weak candidate in my opinion. No real presence or charisma to speak of.
I like G.W. very much and I still continue to support him, his administration and our troops in Iraq. I don’t agree with everything, nor do I accept everything this administration tells me, but I still support the President and he will get my vote in November.
“BTW, are you telling me that you approve of torturing and humiliation of the prisoners? When a soldier lays down arms and surrenders, you think that you are fighting “handcuffed” to not be able to torture him?”
“Doogie, you can use whatever label you want to justify torture, but the fact remains that they are called “human rights” for a reason. Not “uniformed human rights”… If you had children fighting in this war, wouldn’t you want to know that they would treat your son or daughter with the dignity of a soldier?”
I said I agree with the humiliation. That was your label, as was the label of soldier. We are NOT discussing torture. This was humiliation. Collegehumor.com has pictures of much worse everyday. If my children were enlisted in the military and fighting in a war, they would indeed deserve the protections of the Geneva Conventions. If they were setting off bombs in market places or hiding behind civilians to attack or convincing others to be homicide bombers, they would deserve much worse than panties on their head.
Wow, some real head in the sand type responses in here.
That’s just the way it is
Yeah, I suppose you could say that about anything that was done, no matter how stupid. It could have been applied to slavery, inequality for women or perhaps racism.
It’s war, too bad
Okay, yeah, and that is why the US along with other western countries routinely goes after war criminals. There are rules to war, even if they are inconvenient right now.
Those terrorists deserve it
Oh yeah, forgot, not everyone who gets stuck in this lovely little resort is guilty of anything. Yes, lets liberate those poor freedom loving Iraqi’s – of course only those that are guilty are picked up by the patrols.
You can’t blame the leadership
No, leadership is never responsible for anything. Leadership sets the rules and policies. Who else can be responsible for that?
It doesn’t matter who you are for or against, you don’t have to be a complete moron and pick really stupid spin statements from a shock jock to support your point do you?
“He made the comment that the garbage bags on there heads were what the prisoners demanded because of the woman guard. It is public the way they feel about woman, so they wanted the bags over their heads so they could not see her giving them orders and commands. Made them feel better I guess. He also made a comment about them being naked. He said that they found they had to keep an even number of prisoners in each cell to stop riots. I said why and he said so each one would have a lover. They way he talked, homosexuality is a huge thing and they are almost always naked. I’m just passing on information.”
LOL. Another genius who supports Dubya and condones torture. The Iraqi prisoners were forced to wear hoods for 72 hours straight, in some cases. You think they “asked” for that??
You guys who condone the abuse of prisoners (which included acts of rape and murder, and not just nudity) need to realize that America has now lost the moral high ground. That is huge…! Also, it makes our own troops succeptible to torture in future conflicts, because if we won’t follow the Geneva convention, why should anybody else?
Back to the original post. It appears that Rumsfeld pulled an “Ollie North” and lied to Congress while under oath last week, when he feigned ignorance about how this happened. Maybe he forgot that he was the one who signed the authorization?
Do you Repubs condone officials who lie to Congress while under oath?
I tried getting my panties in a wad over you liberal elitists - but the mere thought of you trying to get me into a pair of hemp sandals…well, who could get mad at someone with such lofty goals…
I guess I need to clarify my earlier statements a little. Roy Batty-I was not attacking you, just some of the statements listed in your post-I guess when it comes to people’s beliefs they have trouble differentiating. I don’t know how you took from my post that I somehow condone what those at Abu Gharid did, and my reference to “fighting a war handcuffed” was talking about taking away our ability to effectively interrogate prisoners for answers we needed last month. In a war such as this where the enemies are not clearly defined by uniform and every road has potential for ambush, information is priceless, as are the lives of our soldiers who can be saved by it.
I reread the original post and took away the same thing I got from it this morning, the arguement that those who authourized this form of interrogation are somehow war criminals is absurd. Most of those in custody now are not afforded Geneva protections because those not acting under geneva regulations don’t need apply. In fact the term “detainee” is used instead of Prisoner of War to signify this.
As for the CIA, I don’t think you’d want to know what practices have/are/will be used, and exactly for the reason that you’d condemn them you don’t need to know. In an ideal world we could walk around butt-nekid with flowers everywhere and birds chirping and all that happy horseshit, but in this world we must defend ourselves. Some people won’t be appeased by holding hands and singing koom-by-ya.
How about some liberal liars? - FDR let thousands get killed at Pearl Harbor. JFK was a letch. LBJ had his boss whacked. Clinton…well just what does ‘is’ mean anyhow?
The only thing that Republicans do better than Dems in the dishonesty dept. is get caught.