Israel Can't Afford to Bluff

[quote]etaco wrote:
The US doesn’t want it, bluster aside.

  1. It’s a matter of time anyway.
    The population of Iran overwhelmingly supports the pursuit of the bomb and with good reason. They want to be a regional power and they know they can’t be so long as they can be pushed around by other nuclear powers like Israel-- not to mention the US. A strike may delay their development but it will encourage them all the more in the long run. Even if you topple the Ayatollahs and put in a real democracy, they will still pursue the weapon.

[/quote]

Yup, they will probably have a nuke in the long run.

The whole Iran scaremongering is stupid, nuclear-armed or not they are no serious threat to us, and not an existential threat to Israel (which has its own deterrent).

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
etaco wrote:
The US doesn’t want it, bluster aside.

  1. It’s a matter of time anyway.
    The population of Iran overwhelmingly supports the pursuit of the bomb and with good reason. They want to be a regional power and they know they can’t be so long as they can be pushed around by other nuclear powers like Israel-- not to mention the US. A strike may delay their development but it will encourage them all the more in the long run. Even if you topple the Ayatollahs and put in a real democracy, they will still pursue the weapon.

Yup, they will probably have a nuke in the long run.

The whole Iran scaremongering is stupid, nuclear-armed or not they are no serious threat to us, and not an existential threat to Israel (which has its own deterrent).[/quote]

You live in a fantasy world.

I actually see the Israeli’s settling this matter. I think they will tell Iran they can’t risk them having a bomb and will destroy the facilities if they keep developing them. Iran will of course continue development and then the Israeli’s will strike.

I don’t think Israel hit’s them with tactical level nuclear weapons unless the Iranian’s stage a hard counter strike. Depending on the intensity of the counter attack and type of weapons used you may see Israel go with a nuclear premptive strike in the second round. Kind of hard to believe but I wouldn’t rule it out.

I have never known Israel to bluff, if they say it, they usually do it unless we stop them. If they say they are going to take care of Irans nuclear program, I have no doubt they’ll do it…They took care of their first attempt pretty well.
That time they didn’t say anything, they just did it, just like what they did to Syria.

[quote]Inner Hulk wrote:
Oh my fuck, I want to sex your avatar Zap.[/quote]

she has a hoof.

[quote]Inner Hulk wrote:
Oh my fuck, I want to sex your avatar Zap.[/quote]

Quick Zap-- change your avatar to Richard Simmons.

[quote]Inner Hulk wrote:
Oh my fuck, I want to sex your avatar Zap.[/quote]

Inner Hulk:

Here 'ya go:

http://www.katesplayground.com/

(Just wanna’ help a Brother out!)

Mufasa

[quote]etaco wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
Oh my fuck, I want to sex your avatar Zap.

Quick Zap-- change your avatar to Richard Simmons.[/quote]
LOL. Who loves short shorts?

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
Oh my fuck, I want to sex your avatar Zap.

Inner Hulk:

Here 'ya go:

http://www.katesplayground.com/

(Just wanna’ help a Brother out!)

Mufasa

[/quote]
Oh shit I didn’t even realize that was her! Thanks Mufasa :slight_smile:

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
etaco wrote:
The US doesn’t want it, bluster aside.

  1. It’s a matter of time anyway.
    The population of Iran overwhelmingly supports the pursuit of the bomb and with good reason. They want to be a regional power and they know they can’t be so long as they can be pushed around by other nuclear powers like Israel-- not to mention the US. A strike may delay their development but it will encourage them all the more in the long run. Even if you topple the Ayatollahs and put in a real democracy, they will still pursue the weapon.

Yup, they will probably have a nuke in the long run.

The whole Iran scaremongering is stupid, nuclear-armed or not they are no serious threat to us, and not an existential threat to Israel (which has its own deterrent).

You live in a fantasy world.[/quote]

Why’s that? Because Iran is the first nation in the history of the world that seeks national suicide?

Israel will hit Iran with B-2’s and bunker busters. They don’t have them you say? Yes we know that. They will just borrow them and some pilots for the night from the U.S. inventory.

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
etaco wrote:
The US doesn’t want it, bluster aside.

  1. It’s a matter of time anyway.
    The population of Iran overwhelmingly supports the pursuit of the bomb and with good reason. They want to be a regional power and they know they can’t be so long as they can be pushed around by other nuclear powers like Israel-- not to mention the US. A strike may delay their development but it will encourage them all the more in the long run. Even if you topple the Ayatollahs and put in a real democracy, they will still pursue the weapon.

Yup, they will probably have a nuke in the long run.

The whole Iran scaremongering is stupid, nuclear-armed or not they are no serious threat to us, and not an existential threat to Israel (which has its own deterrent).

You live in a fantasy world.

Why’s that? Because Iran is the first nation in the history of the world that seeks national suicide?[/quote]

Because suicide bombing is unknown in the Islamic world…

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
etaco wrote:
The US doesn’t want it, bluster aside.

  1. It’s a matter of time anyway.
    The population of Iran overwhelmingly supports the pursuit of the bomb and with good reason. They want to be a regional power and they know they can’t be so long as they can be pushed around by other nuclear powers like Israel-- not to mention the US. A strike may delay their development but it will encourage them all the more in the long run. Even if you topple the Ayatollahs and put in a real democracy, they will still pursue the weapon.

Yup, they will probably have a nuke in the long run.

The whole Iran scaremongering is stupid, nuclear-armed or not they are no serious threat to us, and not an existential threat to Israel (which has its own deterrent).

You live in a fantasy world.

Why’s that? Because Iran is the first nation in the history of the world that seeks national suicide?[/quote]

You need to spend some time reading books or watching the history channel, because you are clueless.

Israel committed national suicide two thousand years ago. The reason why is because they were following a messianic prophecy that led them to believe that when they rose up against the Romans, God would send the Messiah to lead them to victory.

The end result was the Romans drove the Jews out of the holyland, wiped Israel off of the map and the Zealots, who started it all, ended up committing mass suicide on top of mount Massada.

Today the Shiites in Iran have a similar messianic prophecy that says the Mahdi will come and lead them to victory in some great battle. Ahmadinejad’s speech to the UN was all about how the Mahdi is coming.

You are delusional if you think the Iranians having the ability to wipe out entire cities in the blink of an eye, would not be a danger to us.

Here is an interesting analysis from John Bolton on why the Israelis will attack before a new president is sworn in. It confirms what I have been thinking, the time to strike is while Bush is still in office. Because McCain isn’t going to want to go after the Iranians right away and Obama will be useless.

It will be ironic if all the peacenicks do get Obama elected. Because the weakness of an Obama presidency will be a very strong arguement for getting the Iranian nuclear program taken out while there is still the opportunity. Obama’s weakness will bring a mess on himself that he is not ready for.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/2182070/Israel-'will-attack-Iran'-before-new-US-president-sworn-in%2C-John-Bolton-predicts.html

John Bolton, the former American ambassador to the United Nations, has predicted that Israel could attack Iran after the November presidential election but before George W Bush’s successor is sworn in.

The Arab world would be “pleased” by Israeli strikes against Iranian nuclear facilities, he said in an interview with The Daily Telegraph.

“It [the reaction] will be positive privately. I think there’ll be public denunciations but no action,” he said.

Mr Bolton, an unflinching hawk who proposes military action to stop Iran developing nuclear weapons, bemoaned what he sees as a lack of will by the Bush administration to itself contemplate military strikes.

“It’s clear that the administration has essentially given up that possibility,” he said. “I don’t think it’s serious any more. If you had asked me a year ago I would have said I thought it was a real possibility. I just don’t think it’s in the cards.”

Israel, however, still had a determination to prevent a nuclear Iran, he argued. The “optimal window” for strikes would be between the November 4 election and the inauguration on January 20, 2009.

"The Israelis have one eye on the calendar because of the pace at which the Iranians are proceeding both to develop their nuclear weapons capability and to do things like increase their defences by buying new Russian anti-aircraft systems and further harden the nuclear installations .

“They’re also obviously looking at the American election calendar. My judgement is they would not want to do anything before our election because there’s no telling what impact it could have on the election.”

But waiting for either Barack Obama, the Democratic candidate, or his Republican opponent John McCain to be installed in the White House could preclude military action happening for the next four years or at least delay it.

“An Obama victory would rule out military action by the Israelis because they would fear the consequences given the approach Obama has taken to foreign policy,” said Mr Bolton, who was Mr Bush’s ambassador to the UN from 2005 to 2006.

“With McCain they might still be looking at a delay. Given that time is on Iran’s side, I think the argument for military action is sooner rather than later absent some other development.”

The Iran policy of Mr McCain, whom Mr Bolton supports, was “much more realistic than the Bush administration’s stance”.

Mr Obama has said he will open high-level talks with Iran “without preconditions” while Mr McCain views attacking Iran as a lesser evil than allowing Iran to become a nuclear power.

William Kristol, a prominent neo-conservative, told Fox News on Sunday that an Obama victory could prompt Mr Bush to launch attacks against Iran. “If the president thought John McCain was going to be the next president, he would think it more appropriate to let the next president make that decision than do it on his way out,” he said.

Last week, Israeli jets carried out a long-range exercise over the Mediterranean that American intelligence officials concluded was practice for air strikes against Iran. Mohammad Ali Hosseini, spokesman for the Iranian foreign ministry, said this was an act of “psychological warfare” that would be futile.

“They do not have the capacity to threaten the Islamic Republic of Iran. They [Israel] have a number of domestic crises and they want to extrapolate it to cover others. Sometimes they come up with these empty slogans.”

He added that Tehran would deliver a “devastating” response to any attack.

On Friday, Mohamed ElBaradei, head of the UN International Atomic Energy Agency, said military action against Iran would turn the Middle East into a “fireball” and accelerate Iran’s nuclear programme.

Mr Bolton, however, dismissed such sentiments as scaremongering. "The key point would be for the Israelis to break Iran’s control over the nuclear fuel cycle and that could be accomplished for example by destroying the uranium conversion facility at Esfahan or the uranium enrichment facility at Natanz.

“That doesn’t end the problem but it buys time during which a more permanent solution might be found… How long? That would be hard to say. Depends on the extent of the destruction.”

John Bolton is a proven liar and a neo con fuckstick.

I’ll never understand why people continue to quote soulless psychopaths to “help” their argument.

http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/90854/6435369.html

French President Sarkozy says a nuclear Iran is unacceptable and anyone trying to destroy Israel will have to go through France first.

Let the Europeans fight this one.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
etaco wrote:
The US doesn’t want it, bluster aside.

  1. It’s a matter of time anyway.
    The population of Iran overwhelmingly supports the pursuit of the bomb and with good reason. They want to be a regional power and they know they can’t be so long as they can be pushed around by other nuclear powers like Israel-- not to mention the US. A strike may delay their development but it will encourage them all the more in the long run. Even if you topple the Ayatollahs and put in a real democracy, they will still pursue the weapon.

Yup, they will probably have a nuke in the long run.

The whole Iran scaremongering is stupid, nuclear-armed or not they are no serious threat to us, and not an existential threat to Israel (which has its own deterrent).

You live in a fantasy world.

Why’s that? Because Iran is the first nation in the history of the world that seeks national suicide?

You need to spend some time reading books or watching the history channel, because you are clueless.

Israel committed national suicide two thousand years ago. The reason why is because they were following a messianic prophecy that led them to believe that when they rose up against the Romans, God would send the Messiah to lead them to victory.

The end result was the Romans drove the Jews out of the holyland, wiped Israel off of the map and the Zealots, who started it all, ended up committing mass suicide on top of mount Massada.

Today the Shiites in Iran have a similar messianic prophecy that says the Mahdi will come and lead them to victory in some great battle. Ahmadinejad’s speech to the UN was all about how the Mahdi is coming.

You are delusional if you think the Iranians having the ability to wipe out entire cities in the blink of an eye, would not be a danger to us. [/quote]

Thanks, I’ve read bits of Josephus. A bloody rebellion and exile is not the same thing as consciously choosing nuclear annihilation.

As for Twelver Shiism, it’d be cool if people would quote Ayatollah Khamenei, or actual religious experts, as opposed to relying on Ahmedinejad, who, as the OP noted, does not even run the country (he’s about fifth in charge in reality).

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Regular Gonzalez wrote:
If I were ruling Iran I would want nukes

What if you ruled Switzerland?[/quote]

Yep

The foreign policy that makes the most sense to me involves two steps.

Step 1 - Get nukes as a deterrent
Step 2 - Stay the hell out of other countries business

Just to be clear though, although I am not convinced that the Iranian regime are the lunatics they are often portrayed as, I am still not completely comfortable with the prospect of a nuclear armed Iran.

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Sifu wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
etaco wrote:
The US doesn’t want it, bluster aside.

  1. It’s a matter of time anyway.
    The population of Iran overwhelmingly supports the pursuit of the bomb and with good reason. They want to be a regional power and they know they can’t be so long as they can be pushed around by other nuclear powers like Israel-- not to mention the US. A strike may delay their development but it will encourage them all the more in the long run. Even if you topple the Ayatollahs and put in a real democracy, they will still pursue the weapon.

Yup, they will probably have a nuke in the long run.

The whole Iran scaremongering is stupid, nuclear-armed or not they are no serious threat to us, and not an existential threat to Israel (which has its own deterrent).

You live in a fantasy world.

Why’s that? Because Iran is the first nation in the history of the world that seeks national suicide?

You need to spend some time reading books or watching the history channel, because you are clueless.

Israel committed national suicide two thousand years ago. The reason why is because they were following a messianic prophecy that led them to believe that when they rose up against the Romans, God would send the Messiah to lead them to victory.

The end result was the Romans drove the Jews out of the holyland, wiped Israel off of the map and the Zealots, who started it all, ended up committing mass suicide on top of mount Massada.

Today the Shiites in Iran have a similar messianic prophecy that says the Mahdi will come and lead them to victory in some great battle. Ahmadinejad’s speech to the UN was all about how the Mahdi is coming.

You are delusional if you think the Iranians having the ability to wipe out entire cities in the blink of an eye, would not be a danger to us.

Thanks, I’ve read bits of Josephus. A bloody rebellion and exile is not the same thing as consciously choosing nuclear annihilation. [/quote]

Again you are creating your own reality. The Romans were fully capable of killing everyone in Israel for opposing them. The only reason why the Romans exiled the Jews is because they had their uses and the Romans wanted to let everyone else in the empire know the price of opposing Rome. Otherwise the Romans would have killed everyone, that was the standard back then.

What you are doing with the Romans and Ahmadinejad is called projecting. You are projecting your twenty first century morals and values on the Romans. You think that because we would do spare civilian populations today the Romans would do the same thing for the same reasons.

Same thing with the Iranians. You are projecting your vaules and beliefs onto Ahmadinejad thinking he thinks the exact same way you do. You figure that since you wouldn’t want to see your country nuked the Iranian leadership feels the exact same way.

You assume that since mutually assured destruction worked with Russians during the cold war it will work with anyone else equally as well. That is a really dangerous assumption to make when dealing with people from a totally different culture and totally different religious beliefs.

[quote]
As for Twelver Shiism, it’d be cool if people would quote Ayatollah Khamenei, or actual religious experts, as opposed to relying on Ahmedinejad, who, as the OP noted, does not even run the country (he’s about fifth in charge in reality).[/quote]

What we have to understand is that Ahmadinejad is closer to a glorified Press Secretary than anything else.

Also with the development of a few Nukes, Iran is NOT following a path of Mutually Assured Destruction. (MAD).

That policy requires comparable arsenals.

One U.S. Carrier Group alone has enough Nuclear capability to wipe out the whole of the Middle East; and its been estimated that Israel has between 300-400 Nuclear and Thermonuclear Weapons as Tactical “mininukes”, SAMS, ATA/air-to-ground and artillery shells; Long Range Jericho 1 and 2’s; and Neutron Bomb capability.

Mufasa