[quote]hedo wrote:
Seems like he was pretty clear what he wanted to have happen to those that turned their back on Islam whether they become Christian or not. Curious to hear the spin.
Qur’an 4:89 “They wish that you would reject Faith, as they have, and thus be on the same footing: Do not be friends with them until they leave their homes in Allah’s Cause. But if they turn back from Islam, becoming renegades, seize them and kill them wherever you find them.”
[/quote]
Verses in the Quran aren’t bullet points. The Book has to be taken as a whole. In this particular case, you made total abstraction of context. I addressed this a few days back in the “Al Qaeda reader” thread. Read it.
Hedo, how many times have you read the Quran cover to cover in its original version? I’m guessing less than a hundred times. In which case, how on earth can you have the audacity to claim to know it better than me?
[quote]vroom wrote:
Sloth, I think something Lixy might find illuminating would be to consider the fact that he would be risking his life if he tried to direct his pacifistic ideals towards Islam by criticizing Muslim actions… whereas directing criticism at America and the West is safe.[/quote]
Darn! I was so looking forward to that CIA free vacation you alluded to.
Seriously, I am a vocal critic of the abuses people try to portray as part of the Islamic message, and I have yet to receive a single threat. Here on the other hand…
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
EDIT: I was going to change my post to say, “The more radical form of Islam”, but when those cartoons came out and the riots started, those folks were not all fundamentalists. So I am keeping it the way it is.
Islam’s policies regarding freedom of speech have really turned my view on the entire religion. I went from more of a pacifist in regards to them, to far more worrisome that this line of thinking must not be allowed to spread.[/quote]
For your information, the cartoons’ first reproduction - besides the originals in the Jylland-posten - were in Muslim-majority countries. People found it offensive, but it stopped right there. Three or four weeks after, some wackos saw it as a political opportunity and used it to fuel their hatred movements. It worked perfectly well as illustrated by what we’ve seen occur around the world.
Here’s what they don’t tell you: When French and British papers were censoring papers that relayed the cartoons, Muslims in charge of papers in Muslim-majority countries were publishing them to show that ,despite their disapproval, freedom of speech should prevail and that the barbarians torching flags in the streets do not represent Islam. An angry mob is, 9 times out of 10, composed of uneducated folks that were told what to believe by some guru.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
I still see mostly muslims blaming everybody else in the world for thier problems. Like begging the jailer for the key in your own pocket.[/quote]
When the warden has all the big guns, a key is of little use.
How about giving the people in Muslim-majority countries a chance, and not handing out billions of Dollars worth of weapons to them? I mean really, you have a problem with what’s happening in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt? Quit supporting the bastards in charge!
They’re screwing up the image of my religion and oppressing their people. What’s so hard to understand about that?
[quote]skor wrote:
I haven’t read Quran myself, but it seems to have a lot of contradicting directives. If it was said there that an apostate has to be killed, how would it be different? That is a word of G-d and hence it’s the way life should be lived. What, in the end, do you use to judge the “morality” of action? An obscure book written long time ago that can be interpreted millions ways or your own thinking? What is written in Quran is not as relevant as the actions of people who follow it.[/quote]
Oh no?
Does anything in the US encourages shooting other people in the belly? How often does it occur everyday? Should I conclude that what’s written in your books is not as relevant as the actions of people who follow it?
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
It’s still a shitty analogy trying to compare one to one acts with the massive acts of murder that the fundamentalist Islamic people commit. It is not the same. [/quote]
I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here.
How can you sit in Jersey and talk about Muslims not making a peep? Have you asked them? Sheesh…
War on the West? From the looks of it, I’d say most of the war is taking place in the East as we speak.
My point was that Islam is not anymore to blame about 9/11, than Buddhism is to blame for Kamikazes or Christianity to blame for what Bush’s been doing.
It’s a bloody criminal behavior either way. What part of that don’t you get?
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
All I know is I have a friend who has a relative who is a Muslim and he told me that everytime this relative comes over she makes him put his family photos face down because images offend this person. That’s where I got it from.[/quote]
As long as you treat exceptions as such, there’s no much point wasting time on this one.
I NEVER met ANY Muslim susceptible of being offended by a photo. Well, goatse aside…
Because he was a party to a capital murder. He was the driver in two robberies, and a murder.
He should fry.
But no one is killing him because of his faith - unlike the fearful and woefully ignorant islamic world.
You are on the losing end of this, Lixy - you are spending all you time defending the religion of hatred, death and cowardice. I could give a flying fuck what your book says. The action of the people speak much louder than any Allah-penned tome.
If you have the wrong faith - we’ll kill you.
If you write a cartoon that we don’t like - we’ll kill you.
Bible in your car? We’ll beat your ass.
Write a book we don’t like? We’ll take a contract out on you and chase you to the ends of the earth.
It is not a religion of love. Oh, it probably says so in there some where that you should love one another - but there is little if any practical application of that in the real world Islamo-fascist state. You have no rights, and happiness is what you get when you die.
You can blame the US all you want, but this is a direct result of your religion acting as a government.
You compare islamic juhadist killings to a drunk in a bar - and you expect us to believe the bullshit.
I pitty you. TO be so insecure about what is thought of you that you have to blame everything and anything besides the real problem.
[quote]lixy wrote:
hedo wrote:
Seems like he was pretty clear what he wanted to have happen to those that turned their back on Islam whether they become Christian or not. Curious to hear the spin.
Qur’an 4:89 “They wish that you would reject Faith, as they have, and thus be on the same footing: Do not be friends with them until they leave their homes in Allah’s Cause. But if they turn back from Islam, becoming renegades, seize them and kill them wherever you find them.”
Verses in the Quran aren’t bullet points. The Book has to be taken as a whole. In this particular case, you made total abstraction of context. I addressed this a few days back in the “Al Qaeda reader” thread. Read it.
Hedo, how many times have you read the Quran cover to cover in its original version? I’m guessing less than a hundred times. In which case, how on earth can you have the audacity to claim to know it better than me?
I’m curious.[/quote]
That is a typical Muslim response to a critique of the Quran, as you are well aware, and no doubt been trained to do. Not unexpected. When taken as a whole the verse is fortified not dismissed. You need to read it. Why do you think you are correct when others apparently find a different message, including those who claim to be scholars?
Why would I read the Quran a hundred times? I doubt you have either and based on your reputation for lying it is doubtful you have. Why don’t you claim a thousand…big lies are better. Why would I learn Arabic, it’s hardly the language of business or world affairs and I don’t travel to the ME much anymore. Why do you assume you are the only one who speaks multiple languages. Arrogance on the internet, again typical.
When I read things to study them I read them objectively. It is apparent you do not and never have, particularly with regard to religion. Based on your posting, can that be made anymore clear? Claiming that you did would be audacious.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
This is a few pages old, as I have been away, but I will try and be brief so we don’t lose track of the most recent stuff:
lixy wrote:
The “project” in the case this forum, is create an atmosphere where exchange of ideas flourishes, and where everyone comes out more enriched intellectually than when he came in.
I really can’t recall where I stepped out of line. Maybe you can help by giving me examples where I didn’t assume good faith, so that I can work on avoiding that behavior in the future.
This was covered extensively in my last paragraph(s) discussing your methodology - and you avoided the issue entirely.
Your problem, Lixy - stated again - is that you don’t/won’t engage in the kind of dialogue necessary to have an “exchange of ideas” because you refuse to acknowledge empirical information that causes problems in the ideological points you try to make. You sidestep it, and stick to regurgitated bullet points that make conclusory statements that often were directly refuted by the information.
That makes you look like you aren’t interested in “intellectual exchange” at all - it makes you look like a propagandist just making noise on an internet forum.
[/quote]
I don’t know about anyone else here but these ass reamings that Thunderbolt gives Lixy are absolutely hilarious to read. T-Nation gold!!!
The image of the dude who was whipped for having a Bible in his car is disturbing to say the least. Do all Muslims, when they are in the majority, do shit like this?
What do you mean “Islam needs a reformation”? Islam is not a religion where some dude on a balcony decrees what’s right and wrong. It’s an individual thing.
…[/quote]
Islam means submisson. This is not an individual thing. It is quite the opposite. You must give up these thoughts and submit to the will of Allah.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Your problem, Lixy - stated again - is that you don’t/won’t engage in the kind of dialogue necessary to have an “exchange of ideas” because you refuse to acknowledge empirical information that causes problems in the ideological points you try to make. You sidestep it, and stick to regurgitated bullet points that make conclusory statements that often were directly refuted by the information.
That makes you look like you aren’t interested in “intellectual exchange” at all - it makes you look like a propagandist just making noise on an internet forum. [/quote]
That’s your own opinion. If you could back it up with some facts, it may hold more water.
Try again.
Good. So now, we’re guilty until proven innocent?
Read closer. I never referenced “Islam’s Golden Age”. I point out that a lot of good has come out of Islamic countries.
I’ll have you know that my country has been independent for four decades.
I don’t see why that should be. Are the Chinese ashamed for not sharing “anything like the Enlightenment”?
First, we have to establish what exactly you think has to be reformed. Then we have to find out who has any authority to make such a reformation.
Up until now, all you’ve been dishing out was “Apartheid”, “tribal wars”, etc…
When asked to substantiate the accusations and how you know Islam condones any of those things, you retreat. Please start here. What do you see in the Quran or the Sunnah as incompatible with democracy?
Freedom of religion? Let’s see…
“Proclaim: “This is the truth from your Lord,” then whoever wills let him believe, and whoever wills let him disbelieve
What “the Islamic civilization” does is not the fault of Islam.” Quran 18:29
“Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed. Do you want to force the people to become believers?” Quran 10:99
“Say, “I do not ask you for any money. All I seek is to help you find the right path to your Lord, if this is what you choose.”” Quran 25:57
“This (Quran) is a reminder; whoever wills, let him choose the path to his Lord.” Quran 73:19
“This is a reminder: whoever wills shall choose the path to his Lord.” Quran 76:29
As for freedom of speech, you’ll have to define it for me. I mean, does it include an evangelist calling for the assassination of a democratically elected head of state? We’ll take it from there.
Islamic civilization died around the 14th century. All we had since were dictators that have as much to do with Islam as Stalin had to do with Communism (or Bush with American values for that matter).
Of course there is a need for democracy. It’s stressed in the Holy Book. People are differing and throwing ideas in the “big mixer”.
Awww…will you quit associating Islam with what dictators do already! They use religion to get away with murder, oppression and a plethora of other things. Kinda like medieval kings in Europe used to do.
[quote]And that should be the end of the debate, right there - you say Islam does not permit that question “does it makes sense for us to do that anymore?”…
…and that is the very question every functioning democracy must always have on the table among its people.[/quote]
Where did you fish such statement? Certainly not from the Quran or the Sunnah.
Yeah. You could start making arguments.
You bet my defensiveness is showing. You’re essentially defending the OP’s arguments. Did you forget your first post on this thread?
There is no such thing as an Islamic civilization. What we have are a bunch of Muslim-majority countries that recently came out of occupation (some are still under the boot to this day), ruled by dictators who are trying to impose their will.
Because they can.
I don’t see anything wrong with people questioning interpretations that are used by autocratic regimes.
Sure you can. But it may help your case to concentrate on what “Islam” advocates and doesn’t advocate. What fundamentalist countries or brainwashed people do is not reflective of the religion.
In my view, Islam is fine. Tough questions need to be asked to challenge the tyrants ruling majority-Muslim countries, because most of them claim to be appointed by God. They pass abusive law and allege that they’re from the Quran, when everyone knows it ain’t so. Those are the tough questions to ask, because people asking them are up against regimes with heavy hands for the most part.
See above.
Because…?
You realize that we are in the middle of an argument here, don’t you? In that case, how can claim that it’s “undisputed”?
Go to talk to some Lebanese or Turks, and get back to me.
I already answered that above.
A more interesting question however would be why are people allowed to ask questions? I mean, your own words on page 1 were “Islamic civilization experienced no such challenge to its religious institutions, and we see that trend in place today.”
Surely, you can’t have it both ways.
There most definitely is a need to put a stop at what the abuses of the Pakistani or Saudi establishment.
Explain to me how it’s relevant then.
Absolutely right.
And I have no such thing as an “irrational hatred of Israel”. I criticize them when their military goes on a killing spree.
Slur? You asked me to name you states in an attempt to show that Islam was responsible for what was happening in Muslim-majority countries. I showed you in an effective - although non-elegant manner - that it’s got nothing to do with religion in the first place.
You are really comparing the impact of what happened centuries ago to wounds that had little more than decades to heal? Wow!
Again, you’re completely discarding the time component from your analysis.
No. You talked about Islam, not Islamic civilization. There’s a big difference between a religion and the people ascribing to that religion.
My “victim theory” was about the countries that just came out of occupation, not Islam. If you can’t understand why a country that’s under occupation is screwed up, then I can’t do much to explain it.
Now we’re getting somewhere. You’re starting to differentiate between Islam an “Islamic society”. I’m still not satisfied by the wording, but it’s better than where you started at.
Back off a second.
You acknowledged the list I gave of people challenging the status quo, didn’t you? How can you say that it can’t have several interpretations now?
Again, where did you see anything in the Quran or Sunnah that prohibits different viewpoints?
Centuries of oppression? Please elaborate.
A series of crimes condemned by Islam.
You brought up a supposedly uncontroversial case of “lack of political rights”. I flooded you with women holding the highest possible positions in political life.
Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or the Talibans are not “Islam”. Get over it!
Islamic societies? No. Some Muslim-majority countries? Yes.
By the way, you’re not helping the women’s cause one tiny bit by sending the male chauvinist bastards by sending them weapons.
You don’t have the least bit of shame, now do you? Don’t you see that I’m disputing it?
You have to do better than “obvious and undisputed”. Try arguments sometimes.
[quote]To end, I reiterate a point I made that you refused to address: you start with an ideological conclusion you want and work backward. You selectively ignore information that hurts your position. You won’t even acknowledge basic ground-level points that aren’t disputed - like the problem of women in Islamic society.
Regrettably, your inability/unwillingness to resolve this problem is likely to get worse, rather than better. As such, “intellectual exchanges” usually wind up being not very worthwhile or fun.[/quote]
Why is it when we question Islam, our understanding is questioned? When an extreme is pointed out, it is dismissed as the deed of radicals, that the traditional Islamic people are so peaceful? Where is the voice of the traditional Muslims denouncing the acts of the radicals?
[quote]lixy wrote:
pat36 wrote:
I still see mostly muslims blaming everybody else in the world for thier problems. Like begging the jailer for the key in your own pocket.
When the warden has all the big guns, a key is of little use.
How about giving the people in Muslim-majority countries a chance, and not handing out billions of Dollars worth of weapons to them? I mean really, you have a problem with what’s happening in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt? Quit supporting the bastards in charge!
They’re screwing up the image of my religion and oppressing their people. What’s so hard to understand about that?[/quote]
See! You just proved my point word for word to the very heart of the problem. Pass the buck, blame everybody else for the problems you create. You really want peace? Take responsibility and solve your own problems, quit blaming others. The whole problem started as a blame game. It will stop when resposibility for your own actions are taken…Right, okay back to my “Ignore List” you go.
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
Why is it when we question Islam, our understanding is questioned? When an extreme is pointed out, it is dismissed as the deed of radicals, that the traditional Islamic people are so peaceful? Where is the voice of the traditional Muslims denouncing the acts of the radicals?[/quote]
It called “passing the buck”. After all it’s not their fault they are violent it’s ours. Apparently, we have control over other peoples actions. What do they want? I don’t know maybe they are looking for a hand out. Maybe if we put them on welfare they’d stop being so violent.
What do you mean “Islam needs a reformation”? Islam is not a religion where some dude on a balcony decrees what’s right and wrong. It’s an individual thing.
…
Islam means submisson. This is not an individual thing. It is quite the opposite. You must give up these thoughts and submit to the will of Allah.[/quote]
I thought it meant blame the rest of the world for your own problems that you create. May we should teach them to cry racism, then they can just litigate us to death.
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
Why is it when we question Islam, our understanding is questioned? When an extreme is pointed out, it is dismissed as the deed of radicals, that the traditional Islamic people are so peaceful? Where is the voice of the traditional Muslims denouncing the acts of the radicals?[/quote]
Well, Lixy denounces the violence done by extremists, so there’s one.
But it does seem that the dictum ‘You just don’t understand Islam.’ is used as an excuse.
The answer is: if its so damnned obscure, why the hell should anyone believe it?