Islam Needs to Prove It's a Religion of Peace

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

[quote]orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
If the Godless can kill and oppress for the sake of communism and state atheism, they can kill for anything. Why is this even controversial?

Because they did not kill in the name of their godlessness even if they could have “killed for anything”.

They can certainely, and did, target the religious.

And social democrats, and Jews, and Ukranians, and intellectuals… [/quote]

How does an “and” nullify the evils of atheism backed with state power, state atheism, in a brutal fashion?

122

[quote]Sloth wrote:

The Soviet Union was the first state to have as an ideological objective the elimination of religion. Toward that end, the Communist regime confiscated church property, ridiculed religion, harassed believers, and propagated atheism in the schools. Actions toward particular religions, however, were determined by State interests, and most organized religions were never outlawed

and

After Nazi Germany’s attack on the Soviet Union in 1941, Joseph Stalin revived the Russian Orthodox Church to intensify patriotic support for the war effort. By 1957 about 22,000 Russian Orthodox churches had become active

also

Thereafter, several trials known as the Moscow Trials were held, but the procedures were replicated throughout the country. Article 58 of the legal code, listing prohibited anti-Soviet activities as counterrevolutionary crime was applied in the broadest manner.[22] The flimsiest pretexts were often enough to brand someone an “enemy of the people,” starting the cycle of public persecution and abuse, often proceeding to interrogation, torture and deportation, if not death. The Russian word troika gained a new meaning: a quick, simplified trial by a committee of three subordinated to NKVD with sentencing carried out within 24 hours.[23]

Mass operations of the NKVD also targeted “national contingents” (foreign ethnicities), such as Poles, Ethnic Germans, Koreans, etc.

During Stalin’s rule the following ethnic groups were deported completely or partially: Ukrainians, Poles, Koreans, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks, Chechens, Ingush, Balkars, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Finns, Bulgarians, Greeks, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, and Jews. Large numbers of Kulaks, regardless of their nationality, were resettled to Siberia and Central Asia. Deportations took place in appalling conditions, often by cattle truck, and hundreds of thousands of deportees died en route.[42] Those who survived were forced to work without pay in the labour camps. Many of the deportees died of hunger or other conditions.

The Holodomor famine is sometimes referred to as the Ukrainian Genocide, implying it was engineered by the Soviet government, specifically targeting the Ukrainian people to destroy the Ukrainian nation as a political factor and social entity.[50] While historians continue to disagree whether the policies that led to Holodomor fall under the legal definition of genocide, twenty six countries have officially recognized the Holodomor as such. On November 28, 2006 the Ukrainian Parliament approved a bill, according to which the Soviet-era forced famine was an act of genocide against the Ukrainian people.[51] Professor Michael Ellman concludes that Ukrainians were victims of genocide in 1932-33, according to a more relaxed definition, which is favored by some specialists in the field of genocide studies. He also asserts that, while this is not the only Soviet genocide (e.g. The Polish operation of the NKVD), it is the worst in terms of mass casualties.[52]

Current estimates on the total number of casualties within Soviet Ukraine range mostly from from 2.2 million [53][54] to 4 to 5 million.[55][56][57]

So if you feel like arguing that they killed a lot of people in the name of communism, be my guest, but that they killed in the na,e of atheism is ridiculous.

When they needed religion they used it, if not it was just another competing ideology.

123

[quote]Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:
pat wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

They’re all fucking ridiculous. There are probably more deaths committed in the name of Christianity than those in any others.

Not this stupid shit again…Do you forget your prominent athiest pals like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, etc. No one, by a large margin has killed more people that athiests…I mean it’s not even close.

Yup, and that is all you have, even though you know how weak an argument it is.

Sounds strong to me.

That says a lot more about you than about the strength of the argument.

I might as well call the Holocaust the result of Hitlers vegetarianism for he did not kill in the name of vegetarianism either.

What’s Hitler to do with the above?

He was a vegetarian and he did bad things.

So there.

And PETA.

I rest my case.

What’s that have to do with state atheism?[/quote]

That a case of state atheism happened exactly as often as a case of state vegetarianism, i.e., never.

124

[quote]orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:

The Soviet Union was the first state to have as an ideological objective the elimination of religion. Toward that end, the Communist regime confiscated church property, ridiculed religion, harassed believers, and propagated atheism in the schools. Actions toward particular religions, however, were determined by State interests, and most organized religions were never outlawed

and

After Nazi Germany’s attack on the Soviet Union in 1941, Joseph Stalin revived the Russian Orthodox Church to intensify patriotic support for the war effort. By 1957 about 22,000 Russian Orthodox churches had become active

also

Thereafter, several trials known as the Moscow Trials were held, but the procedures were replicated throughout the country. Article 58 of the legal code, listing prohibited anti-Soviet activities as counterrevolutionary crime was applied in the broadest manner.[22] The flimsiest pretexts were often enough to brand someone an “enemy of the people,” starting the cycle of public persecution and abuse, often proceeding to interrogation, torture and deportation, if not death. The Russian word troika gained a new meaning: a quick, simplified trial by a committee of three subordinated to NKVD with sentencing carried out within 24 hours.[23]

Mass operations of the NKVD also targeted “national contingents” (foreign ethnicities), such as Poles, Ethnic Germans, Koreans, etc.

During Stalin’s rule the following ethnic groups were deported completely or partially: Ukrainians, Poles, Koreans, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks, Chechens, Ingush, Balkars, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Finns, Bulgarians, Greeks, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, and Jews. Large numbers of Kulaks, regardless of their nationality, were resettled to Siberia and Central Asia. Deportations took place in appalling conditions, often by cattle truck, and hundreds of thousands of deportees died en route.[42] Those who survived were forced to work without pay in the labour camps. Many of the deportees died of hunger or other conditions.

The Holodomor famine is sometimes referred to as the Ukrainian Genocide, implying it was engineered by the Soviet government, specifically targeting the Ukrainian people to destroy the Ukrainian nation as a political factor and social entity.[50] While historians continue to disagree whether the policies that led to Holodomor fall under the legal definition of genocide, twenty six countries have officially recognized the Holodomor as such. On November 28, 2006 the Ukrainian Parliament approved a bill, according to which the Soviet-era forced famine was an act of genocide against the Ukrainian people.[51] Professor Michael Ellman concludes that Ukrainians were victims of genocide in 1932-33, according to a more relaxed definition, which is favored by some specialists in the field of genocide studies. He also asserts that, while this is not the only Soviet genocide (e.g. The Polish operation of the NKVD), it is the worst in terms of mass casualties.[52]

Current estimates on the total number of casualties within Soviet Ukraine range mostly from from 2.2 million [53][54] to 4 to 5 million.[55][56][57]

So if you feel like arguing that they killed a lot of people in the name of communism, be my guest, but that they killed in the na,e of atheism is ridiculous.

When they needed religion they used it, if not it was just another competing ideology.[/quote]

Your counter-agruement is that they pulled back on state atheism, as a political move…Riiight.

125

[quote]Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
If the Godless can kill and oppress for the sake of communism and state atheism, they can kill for anything. Why is this even controversial?

Because they did not kill in the name of their godlessness even if they could have “killed for anything”.

They can certainely, and did, target the religious.

And social democrats, and Jews, and Ukranians, and intellectuals…

How does an “and” nullify the evils of atheism backed with state power, state atheism, in a brutal fashion?[/quote]

Because you seem to imagine that it was all in the name of atheism and that something like “state atheism” exists.

Their official religion was communism and they killed anyone in their way.

It is not as if they singled out religious people.

126

[quote]Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:

The Soviet Union was the first state to have as an ideological objective the elimination of religion. Toward that end, the Communist regime confiscated church property, ridiculed religion, harassed believers, and propagated atheism in the schools. Actions toward particular religions, however, were determined by State interests, and most organized religions were never outlawed

and

After Nazi Germany’s attack on the Soviet Union in 1941, Joseph Stalin revived the Russian Orthodox Church to intensify patriotic support for the war effort. By 1957 about 22,000 Russian Orthodox churches had become active

also

Thereafter, several trials known as the Moscow Trials were held, but the procedures were replicated throughout the country. Article 58 of the legal code, listing prohibited anti-Soviet activities as counterrevolutionary crime was applied in the broadest manner.[22] The flimsiest pretexts were often enough to brand someone an “enemy of the people,” starting the cycle of public persecution and abuse, often proceeding to interrogation, torture and deportation, if not death. The Russian word troika gained a new meaning: a quick, simplified trial by a committee of three subordinated to NKVD with sentencing carried out within 24 hours.[23]

Mass operations of the NKVD also targeted “national contingents” (foreign ethnicities), such as Poles, Ethnic Germans, Koreans, etc.

During Stalin’s rule the following ethnic groups were deported completely or partially: Ukrainians, Poles, Koreans, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks, Chechens, Ingush, Balkars, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Finns, Bulgarians, Greeks, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, and Jews. Large numbers of Kulaks, regardless of their nationality, were resettled to Siberia and Central Asia. Deportations took place in appalling conditions, often by cattle truck, and hundreds of thousands of deportees died en route.[42] Those who survived were forced to work without pay in the labour camps. Many of the deportees died of hunger or other conditions.

The Holodomor famine is sometimes referred to as the Ukrainian Genocide, implying it was engineered by the Soviet government, specifically targeting the Ukrainian people to destroy the Ukrainian nation as a political factor and social entity.[50] While historians continue to disagree whether the policies that led to Holodomor fall under the legal definition of genocide, twenty six countries have officially recognized the Holodomor as such. On November 28, 2006 the Ukrainian Parliament approved a bill, according to which the Soviet-era forced famine was an act of genocide against the Ukrainian people.[51] Professor Michael Ellman concludes that Ukrainians were victims of genocide in 1932-33, according to a more relaxed definition, which is favored by some specialists in the field of genocide studies. He also asserts that, while this is not the only Soviet genocide (e.g. The Polish operation of the NKVD), it is the worst in terms of mass casualties.[52]

Current estimates on the total number of casualties within Soviet Ukraine range mostly from from 2.2 million [53][54] to 4 to 5 million.[55][56][57]

So if you feel like arguing that they killed a lot of people in the name of communism, be my guest, but that they killed in the na,e of atheism is ridiculous.

When they needed religion they used it, if not it was just another competing ideology.

Your counter-agruement is that they pulled back on state atheism, as a political move…Riiight.[/quote]

My counter argument is that there never was “state atheism” and that they could coexist quite well with churches when they wanted too.

Not once has their been a “atheist chairman” but countless “christian kings” and “catholic majesties”.

127

http://www.artukraine.com/commcrimes/inferno.htm

Touches upon the mennonites alone, and their persocution under the anti-religious iron fist. No, no, nothing to see folks.

128

Society of the Godless

129

[quote]orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:

The Soviet Union was the first state to have as an ideological objective the elimination of religion. Toward that end, the Communist regime confiscated church property, ridiculed religion, harassed believers, and propagated atheism in the schools. Actions toward particular religions, however, were determined by State interests, and most organized religions were never outlawed

and

After Nazi Germany’s attack on the Soviet Union in 1941, Joseph Stalin revived the Russian Orthodox Church to intensify patriotic support for the war effort. By 1957 about 22,000 Russian Orthodox churches had become active

also

Thereafter, several trials known as the Moscow Trials were held, but the procedures were replicated throughout the country. Article 58 of the legal code, listing prohibited anti-Soviet activities as counterrevolutionary crime was applied in the broadest manner.[22] The flimsiest pretexts were often enough to brand someone an “enemy of the people,” starting the cycle of public persecution and abuse, often proceeding to interrogation, torture and deportation, if not death. The Russian word troika gained a new meaning: a quick, simplified trial by a committee of three subordinated to NKVD with sentencing carried out within 24 hours.[23]

Mass operations of the NKVD also targeted “national contingents” (foreign ethnicities), such as Poles, Ethnic Germans, Koreans, etc.

During Stalin’s rule the following ethnic groups were deported completely or partially: Ukrainians, Poles, Koreans, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks, Chechens, Ingush, Balkars, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Finns, Bulgarians, Greeks, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, and Jews. Large numbers of Kulaks, regardless of their nationality, were resettled to Siberia and Central Asia. Deportations took place in appalling conditions, often by cattle truck, and hundreds of thousands of deportees died en route.[42] Those who survived were forced to work without pay in the labour camps. Many of the deportees died of hunger or other conditions.

The Holodomor famine is sometimes referred to as the Ukrainian Genocide, implying it was engineered by the Soviet government, specifically targeting the Ukrainian people to destroy the Ukrainian nation as a political factor and social entity.[50] While historians continue to disagree whether the policies that led to Holodomor fall under the legal definition of genocide, twenty six countries have officially recognized the Holodomor as such. On November 28, 2006 the Ukrainian Parliament approved a bill, according to which the Soviet-era forced famine was an act of genocide against the Ukrainian people.[51] Professor Michael Ellman concludes that Ukrainians were victims of genocide in 1932-33, according to a more relaxed definition, which is favored by some specialists in the field of genocide studies. He also asserts that, while this is not the only Soviet genocide (e.g. The Polish operation of the NKVD), it is the worst in terms of mass casualties.[52]

Current estimates on the total number of casualties within Soviet Ukraine range mostly from from 2.2 million [53][54] to 4 to 5 million.[55][56][57]

So if you feel like arguing that they killed a lot of people in the name of communism, be my guest, but that they killed in the na,e of atheism is ridiculous.

When they needed religion they used it, if not it was just another competing ideology.

Your counter-agruement is that they pulled back on state atheism, as a political move…Riiight.

My counter argument is that there never was “state atheism” and that they could coexist quite well with churches when they wanted too.

Not once has their been a “atheist chairman” but countless “christian kings” and “catholic majesties”.[/quote]

Just how big of a demographic do you think atheists are? Through history? I’m convinced you folks could’ve put the inquisition to shame, had you been the majority.

And your point means nothing more than that even state atheism can be pragmatic.

130

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Society of the Godless
League of Militant Atheists - Wikipedia [/quote]

SO at least you have establishhed that there was organized atheism.

I cannot imagine what their meetings were like, but I guess they were pretty short,

131

[quote]orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Society of the Godless

SO at least you have establishhed that there was organized atheism.

I cannot imagine what their meetings were like, but I guess they were pretty short,[/quote]

They probably argued with other atheists about what type of God didn’t exist.

132

[quote]orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
…
It is not as if they singled out religious people.

[/quote]

It’s clear that we are not reading the same history books, but if you can resort to WIkipedia, so can I:

“Stalin’s role in the fortunes of the Russian Orthodox Church is complex. Continuous persecution in the 1930s resulted in its near-extinction: by 1939, active parishes numbered in the low hundreds (down from 54,000 in 1917), many churches had been leveled, and tens of thousands of priests, monks and nuns were persecuted and killed. Over 100,000 were shot during the purges of 1937?1938.[67] During World War II, the Church was allowed a revival as a patriotic organization, after the NKVD had recruited the new metropolitan, the first after the revolution, as a secret agent. Thousands of parishes were reactivated until a further round of suppression in Khrushchev’s time. The Russian Orthodox Church Synod’s recognition of the Soviet government and of Stalin personally led to a schism with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia.
Just days before Stalin’s death, certain religious sects were outlawed and persecuted. Many religions popular in the ethnic regions of the Soviet Union including the Roman Catholic Church, Uniats, Baptists, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, etc. underwent ordeals similar to the Orthodox churches in other parts: thousands of monks were persecuted, and hundreds of churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, sacred monuments, monasteries and other religious buildings were razed.”

Stalin, trained as an Orthodox monk, was most assuredly an atheist, most assuredly persecuted and killed he religious for the fact of their religion. Priest were sent to camps and died. Not to kill was also a political choice.
And unless your history tells otherwise, Hitler did not murder carnivores for the sake of the meat-eating.

I so enjoy the way you couple convenient lapse of history with mind-spinning sophistry. Now then, how is that revised history of “the Navahos” coming?

133

I want to see a self-proclaimed agnostic or atheist come into power in the USA. And I mean REAL power, not just some obscure senator.

But it won’t happen.

134

[quote]Makavali wrote:
I want to see a self-proclaimed agnostic or atheist come into power in the USA. And I mean REAL power, not just some obscure senator.

But it won’t happen.[/quote]

I’ve vote for a Pro-life and free market atheist over some leftwing, pro-choice, planned parenthood supporting, welfare statist, gun grabbing supposed Catholic/Christian, every single time. And–hold onto your hats folks–I’d vote for a Muslim of the same variety, over the new-agey, nanny government loving, leftist Christian, too.

135

[quote]orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
If the Godless can kill and oppress for the sake of communism and state atheism, they can kill for anything. Why is this even controversial?

Because they did not kill in the name of their godlessness even if they could have “killed for anything”.

They can certainely, and did, target the religious.

And social democrats, and Jews, and Ukranians, and intellectuals… [/quote]

Jews? Because of…religion?

136

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
If the Godless can kill and oppress for the sake of communism and state atheism, they can kill for anything. Why is this even controversial?

Because they did not kill in the name of their godlessness even if they could have “killed for anything”.

They can certainely, and did, target the religious.

And social democrats, and Jews, and Ukranians, and intellectuals…

Jews? Because of…religion?[/quote]

actually Lenin spoke out against the czarist secret police murdering jews, and the overall anitsemitism.

something along the lines that even the jews were fellow workers and though there were some rich and evil ones, every group has rich and evil ones. and that they shouldn’t ignore the plight of jewish workers who are one in the same of them. blah blah hard on for the working class, solidarity solidarity, rock on Detroit, rock on Moscow. Goodnight!

it should be in the wiki on lenin, if not its like in the top 4 links if you google lenin+atheism, if not ill find where if found it.

not really defending anything, just an fyi.

but to add something, in US mosques, you wont find the shit they talk about in Tehran or London, for good or worse they remain silent(just like catholic and protestant churches never talk about IRA stuff or south east Asia stuff) on those things and just stick to their religious teachings, but im sure theres some shit ones, just like we still have shit christian churches, all white southern baptist churches that still preach segregation and racism. the klan goes to church after all.

also muslims are getting so much shit right now, from people like in this thread, that im not surprised they dont speak out much, the same people that denounce them now for not speaking up would just find a new reason to denounce them , join the military, donate money to 9/11 victims, ban people, sever all ties to the mid east, ect.

i have friends on campus who dont join the Muslim groups and never talk about their religion and refuse to even when its brought up, getting heckled and insulted by frat guys, Christians, and other white people is not worth it to them. Our on campus muslim group actually held a candle light vigil on 9/11 last year, yet were still heckled and made fun of. so its not surprising they dont speak out.

but they do need to clean their shit up.

137

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
JamFly wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
JamFly wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
JamFly wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
JamFly wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
By the way, two soldiers killed in Antrim by the REAL IRA.

Another two chalked up for Christianity, the religion of peace, love, and harmony.

No doubt.

What does the IRA have to do with religion? It’s a political issue dipshit.

Yes, you fucking douche, it is. A political issue with deep ties to the root problem, which is the Protestant and Catholic divide. Without the religion issue, there’s no political issue. Got it cock?

So the IRA are motivated to kill Protestants because their religion says so? I wonder why there are not more Catholics all over the world killing Protestants because God told them to? Did you know one of the soldiers killed was Catholic???

Hillarious - people like you are the reason the US receives such negative sterotypes.

You completely ignored what I said and made up your own shit. You must be the reason everyone thinks that Scots are drunks.

You say “without the religious issue there is no political issue” - don’t you see how stupid this statement is? Don’t you think the fact that one country has siezed 1/4 of their neighbours country has ANYTHING to do with the issue? Sure the fact that the Irish Republic is 99% Catholic and those loyal to the UK Queen and Country are Protestant doesn’t help but it is in NO WAY the reason for setting bombs and the killing - we have an identically parallel Catholic/Prodestant situation here on the West Coast of Scotland and guess what they hate each other but no-one gets bombed or killed. Shit I cannot believe I have to type this!

You’re obviously a mental juggernaut so I’ll make this real clear to you- the causes of Irish nationalism and Catholicism have been one in the same for years and years. The problems stem as much from the oppression of Catholics by the Protestants over the centuries as anything else.

The IRA is well known as a Catholic, Republican organization- like Ho Chi Minh and the Arabs in the Middle East, they have folded two causes that aren’t necessarily alike into each other in order to achieve a goal.

Odds are that if NI was all Catholic instead of being a 60/40 Protestant majority, there would be no problems there, and they would been on board to get separate from England just as much back in the early part of the century. However, the Protestant roots have led them to keep strong ties with England, and that causes the roots of the problems we have now.

Clear enough for you genius?

“Everyone thinks the Scots are drunks” That’s a new one on me or maybe you were thinking of the Irish which is a country next door to Scotland - you were close.

Whatever. I’m not getting into a pissing contest with a guy who “cantz beeelieve I gotta typpee this!!!1111”

Why do you feel you need to add more clarity on the non-point you are trying to make? Do you not think I understand the socio/political scene in Norther Ireland and know the history having spent the majority of my life growing up a stone’s throw from there?

No, clearly you don’t. And living there doesn’t mean you understand it- That’s like Sarah Palin understanding Russians because she can see them from her backyard.

Clearly no sane rational unbiased person with an understanding of the history and situation in Norther Ireland would find your original “Christian bombers” post credible you are motivated by some kind of anti-religious sentiment and will do or say what ever it takes - even pervert the reality of a situation to cloud an issue which is perfectly crystal clear.

If you don’t think that age old prejudices on the parts of Catholics and Protestants combined with the British occupation is not the root cause of that conflict, then you’re a fucking moron.

Wait a second, I already established that. Forget it. [/quote]

You said;
“Another two chalked up for Christianity, the religion of peace, love, and harmony”.

Then;
“without the religious issue there is no political issue”

Now you say;
“age old prejudices on the parts of Catholics and Protestants combined with the British occupation is… the root cause of that conflict”

So rather than blaming the troubles on religion you now blame prejudices and acknowlege that there is a “British occupation” which may be having some impact - it seems you are making progress in the right direction here. I am sure you will not detract your “Christian bombers” statement.

Not only did you say that but you never did explain why the parallel Protestant/Catholics situation in Scotland doesn’t produce any bombings/shootings or high level violence?

Your straw man said “If you don’t think that age old prejudices on the parts of Catholics and Protestants combined with the British occupation is not the root cause of that conflict, then you’re a fucking moron”

But I already said “It’s a political issue” & “the fact that the Irish Republic is 99% Catholic and those loyal to the UK Queen and Country are Protestant doesn’t help”

138

[quote]JamFly wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
JamFly wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
JamFly wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
JamFly wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
JamFly wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
By the way, two soldiers killed in Antrim by the REAL IRA.

Another two chalked up for Christianity, the religion of peace, love, and harmony.

No doubt.

What does the IRA have to do with religion? It’s a political issue dipshit.

Yes, you fucking douche, it is. A political issue with deep ties to the root problem, which is the Protestant and Catholic divide. Without the religion issue, there’s no political issue. Got it cock?

So the IRA are motivated to kill Protestants because their religion says so? I wonder why there are not more Catholics all over the world killing Protestants because God told them to? Did you know one of the soldiers killed was Catholic???

Hillarious - people like you are the reason the US receives such negative sterotypes.

You completely ignored what I said and made up your own shit. You must be the reason everyone thinks that Scots are drunks.

You say “without the religious issue there is no political issue” - don’t you see how stupid this statement is? Don’t you think the fact that one country has siezed 1/4 of their neighbours country has ANYTHING to do with the issue? Sure the fact that the Irish Republic is 99% Catholic and those loyal to the UK Queen and Country are Protestant doesn’t help but it is in NO WAY the reason for setting bombs and the killing - we have an identically parallel Catholic/Prodestant situation here on the West Coast of Scotland and guess what they hate each other but no-one gets bombed or killed. Shit I cannot believe I have to type this!

You’re obviously a mental juggernaut so I’ll make this real clear to you- the causes of Irish nationalism and Catholicism have been one in the same for years and years. The problems stem as much from the oppression of Catholics by the Protestants over the centuries as anything else.

The IRA is well known as a Catholic, Republican organization- like Ho Chi Minh and the Arabs in the Middle East, they have folded two causes that aren’t necessarily alike into each other in order to achieve a goal.

Odds are that if NI was all Catholic instead of being a 60/40 Protestant majority, there would be no problems there, and they would been on board to get separate from England just as much back in the early part of the century. However, the Protestant roots have led them to keep strong ties with England, and that causes the roots of the problems we have now.

Clear enough for you genius?

“Everyone thinks the Scots are drunks” That’s a new one on me or maybe you were thinking of the Irish which is a country next door to Scotland - you were close.

Whatever. I’m not getting into a pissing contest with a guy who “cantz beeelieve I gotta typpee this!!!1111”

Why do you feel you need to add more clarity on the non-point you are trying to make? Do you not think I understand the socio/political scene in Norther Ireland and know the history having spent the majority of my life growing up a stone’s throw from there?

No, clearly you don’t. And living there doesn’t mean you understand it- That’s like Sarah Palin understanding Russians because she can see them from her backyard.

Clearly no sane rational unbiased person with an understanding of the history and situation in Norther Ireland would find your original “Christian bombers” post credible you are motivated by some kind of anti-religious sentiment and will do or say what ever it takes - even pervert the reality of a situation to cloud an issue which is perfectly crystal clear.

If you don’t think that age old prejudices on the parts of Catholics and Protestants combined with the British occupation is not the root cause of that conflict, then you’re a fucking moron.

Wait a second, I already established that. Forget it.

You said;
“Another two chalked up for Christianity, the religion of peace, love, and harmony”.

Then;
“without the religious issue there is no political issue”

Now you say;
“age old prejudices on the parts of Catholics and Protestants combined with the British occupation is… the root cause of that conflict”

So rather than blaming the troubles on religion you now blame prejudices and acknowlege that there is a “British occupation” which may be having some impact - it seems you are making progress in the right direction here. I am sure you will not detract your “Christian bombers” statement.

Not only did you say that but you never did explain why the parallel Protestant/Catholics situation in Scotland doesn’t produce any bombings/shootings or high level violence?

Your straw man said “If you don’t think that age old prejudices on the parts of Catholics and Protestants combined with the British occupation is not the root cause of that conflict, then you’re a fucking moron”

But I already said “It’s a political issue” & “the fact that the Irish Republic is 99% Catholic and those loyal to the UK Queen and Country are Protestant doesn’t help”
[/quote]

You’ve never been to an old firm match I take it.

140

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
JamFly wrote:

Not only did you say that but you never did explain why the parallel Protestant/Catholics situation in Scotland doesn’t produce any bombings/shootings or high level violence?

You’ve never been to an old firm match I take it.[/quote]

I said bombings, shootings or high level violence, not stabbings and punch up’s :o)