[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
wow - we’re and empire - no one told me!! [/quote]
Yeah, it’s a new concept. Just popped up in the current issue of the journal of foreign affairs.
No one told you about the Guantanamo Bay Naval Base either, I suppos.
If by “them” and “they” you meant Muslims, and that you treat the latter as guilty until proven innocent, then you’re very likely a bigot.
[quote] Part of what I posted on our other thread:
… Is Islam a religion, or a political organization? Was your prophet a man of God (with all the respect for the sanctity of life, humane compassion, and transcendental tolerance that that implies with other religions), or was he a political / military leader whose motivations included worldly power?
[/quote]
Sorry man, I’ve been extremely busy and I had absolutely no time to post. Ok first, yes the Prophet was a messenger of God. His purpose of being sent (as with any other prophet) was to confirm the messages of the Prophets before him, to encourage people to return to the obedience of God, to pass on revelation from God to mankind, and to explain this revelation and help the people to practice it.
The message of God as per the Qur’an and Sunnah is holistic. Islam is not just a religion of belief and going to church once a week, it is a way of life in itself. A Muslim strives to obey God and love, fear and have hope in him with every action that he does. For example, the five daily prayers is a duty that a Muslim is expected to fulfill. There are rulings pertaining to carrying out ethical and fair business transactions (hence Islamic finance), there are rulings pertaining to charity, recreation, diet, marriage, divorce, economics, law and yes even politics. The basic premise of this is that a Muslim worships God through all of his actions.
So politics does come under the religion. There are political rulings in Islam for example minority rights in Muslim-dominant countries and rulings on self-defense, war and even peacemaking and treaties.
[quote] You, of course, will say, “both,” and THAT is the problem with Islam. Mix other-worldly beliefs with political and military affairs and you end up with…Iran. (j/k) You end up with a world in which those in power are never wrong, and cannot be challenged or removed, because they speak for God.
The fact that Muslims themselves often disagree on very fundamental questions regarding Islam makes this even more of a problem. For example, would you like to live under the Taliban, or the current Iranian regime? I’m guessing no. But THEY (each) believe that THEIR’S is “true” Islam, and you’d be an infidel in their eyes. [/quote]
I will say this again. The rulings and decisions made by the Iranian government and Ayatollahs do NOT represent Islam. In fact the vast majority of Muslims, even Shia Muslims will disagree with what comes from there. And you are quoting extremes here. The Taliban is one extreme, and Iran is another.
As Muslims we don’t follow a particular group. We follow the Qur’an which we believe to be the Word of God, preserved since the time of the Prophet Muhammad when he received it via the angel Gabriel. And along with that we follow the Sunnah (way) of the Prophet Muhammad as derived from authenticated hadeeth (reports).
[quote] Since no one will ever “prove” who is correct, and “the truth” matters more than democratic decision making, there is a dangerous potential for horrendous oppression.
Could you please give me your thoughts on this? [/quote]
Actually we can prove who is correct. Islam is not just a religion of faith. It is a religion of faith AND proof. We don’t believe or do something according to the religion unless it is documented in either the Qur’an or Sunnah. If it not documented, it is not considered to be part of the religion and is rejected.
And this is where entities such as the Taliban and Iran come in. Where does it say in the two sources to kill innocent civilians? Nowhere. Where does it say the girls can’t go to school? Nowhere (in fact A’ishah the most beloved wife of the Prophet is one of the greatest scholars of the religion). Where does it say in the religion that Muslims can parade down a street cutting themselves with knives etc. Nowhere. In fact for the ones I’ve listed, a Muslim doesn’t even have to refer to the texts, because any human being can see that such acts are wrong and inhumane.
And I will tell you right now. There is NO political entity in the world right now that follows the Islamic guidelines as outlined in the Qur’an and Sunnah. NO country or political group. That is a universally accepted fact in the Muslim world.
So if one wants to judge Islam, he simply cannot do it through judging a political entity or Muslim country or even an individual. He has to go back to the Qur’an and the Sunnah.
[quote]yusef wrote:
@Shoebolt:
Wow… good post.[/quote]
Yep it was,
amazing what can be achieved when the term bigot isn’t thrown around.
[quote]lixy wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
wow - we’re and empire - no one told me!!
Yeah, it’s a new concept. Just popped up in the current issue of the journal of foreign affairs.
[/quote]
Hey Lixy, your article is bullshit.
Like the Muslims didn’t do any conquering in their time. Like there aren’t Muslim terrorists in over 50 countries around the world as we speak. If you are concerned about lame ass Commie theories and US bases as a form of “empire”, we have a right to be concerned about the “Global Islamic Revolution”
…and what if China builds a military base in Iran? Is Iran the first colony in China’s Empire? That’s ridiculous!
But seriously. If we question Muslims, that makes us bigots? If we talk about Muslim history, that makes us bigots? If we are concerned about Muslim sponsored terrorism, that makes us bigots?
Replace “Muslim” with “America” and you are a bigot as well.
Heres an interesting story about using Wikipedia for a source:
[quote]Shoebolt wrote:
And this is where entities such as the Taliban and Iran come in. Where does it say in the two sources to kill innocent civilians? Nowhere. Where does it say the girls can’t go to school? Nowhere (in fact A’ishah the most beloved wife of the Prophet is one of the greatest scholars of the religion). Where does it say in the religion that Muslims can parade down a street cutting themselves with knives etc. Nowhere. In fact for the ones I’ve listed, a Muslim doesn’t even have to refer to the texts, because any human being can see that such acts are wrong and inhumane.
[/quote]
Thanks for the great post. I have a question, if I am not going to be labeled a bigot by asking…where do entities such as the Taliban and Iran get their inspiration to do the things you speak of above? Just curious.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Please list all of the American colonies.
Province of New Hampshire
Province of Massachusetts Bay
Colony of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations
Connecticut Colony
Province of New York
Province of New Jersey
Province of Pennsylvania
Delaware Colony
Province of Maryland
Colony and Dominion of Virginia
Province of North Carolina
Province of South Carolina
Province of Georgia
What do I win?[/quote]
Funny! How about the ones today??
I’ll start:
Puerto Rico. (if you consider that a colony)
[quote]lixy wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
wow - we’re and empire - no one told me!!
Yeah, it’s a new concept. Just popped up in the current issue of the journal of foreign affairs.
[/quote]
yep. we’ve aready covered this. we had both and expansionist party and non-expansionist party. what’s your point? If we are an empire, every established country is an empire. unless you argue that boarders just grew organically.
That’s quite the empire we have there. Very impressive.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
wow - we’re and empire - no one told me!! Does that mean the Iraq war was “The Empire Strikes Back” or the “Clone Wars”? LMAO
[/quote]
[quote]lixy wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
Yeah, it’s a new concept. Just popped up in the current issue of the journal of foreign affairs.
No one told you about the Guantanamo Bay Naval Base either, I suppos.
If by “them” and “they” you meant Muslims, and that you treat the latter as guilty until proven innocent, then you’re very likely a bigot.[/quote]
LMAO - way to miss the signs and walk into a brick wall. OOOOHHHH - GITMO - amazing choice of empire building there - are you serious?
OH, sorry - I guess all of the news stories and all of my history books talking about muslim conquests and attacks on western civilization for the last 1,300 years were mistaken . . . . how could I have been soo blind . . .
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
wow - we’re and empire - no one told me!! Does that mean the Iraq war was “The Empire Strikes Back” or the “Clone Wars”? LMAO
[/quote]
Sweet! Nice art GL
I saw it floating around back when that movie was new and so was the war. Your post reminded me of it. lol
Nice post. I hope you stick around and stay civil when the inevitable backwardness occurs. Thanks for posting.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
wow - we’re and empire - no one told me!! Does that mean the Iraq war was “The Empire Strikes Back” or the “Clone Wars”? LMAO
Sweet! Nice art GL[/quote]
And yet it would still suck less than Attack of the Clones.
[quote]yusef wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
OH, sorry - I guess all of the news stories and all of my history books talking about muslim conquests and attacks on western civilization for the last 1,300 years were mistaken . . . . how could I have been soo blind . . .
Compare French school history textbooks with American ones with UK ones on WWI events.
Interesting to see the differences and how they are skewed.[/quote]
While we are reading them i would advise you to read some Japanese history books in re to ww1 and 2.
So he posts a picture of “the American Empire” of the Western Hemisphere, our so-called “sphere of interest”. All the other countries on the picture are “geographically near” the US.
And, (flying in the face of everything he’s said is ok from crack-pot dictatorships (Sudan, Syria, Iran) to larger Empires (ie, Russia, China)), it is somehow wrong because it involves America.
And then he claims he is not a bigot.
T-Gunn nailed it a long time ago.
He was dead on.
Genocide is ok, as long as it is done in a close proximity to a country’s “sphere of interest.”
Yet, apparently it is not ok for us to kick the Russians, who were clearly operating outside their sphere of interest, out of Nicaragua.
Screw this, lets get back to Islam in a Nutshell.
Who’s with me?
[quote]Chushin wrote:
yusef wrote:
Compare French school history textbooks with American ones with UK ones on WWI events.
Interesting to see the differences and how they are skewed.
C’mon Yusef. Don’t just pop in with that sort of comment and leave it there.
Tell us what you’re saying, please.[/quote]
I read a Soviet school book about WWII. It wasn’t just the Axis powers they were up against…it was America and Britian as well. Everyone was against poor Russia!!
