[quote]jdrannin1 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
A 1999 study showed that people who eat oatmeal and do meth and cocaine for 4 day binges are great risk of heart attack and death. Oatmeal is bad for you.
Careful, a newbie will think you are joking.[/quote]
Too late. I flushed all my oatmeal down the toilet. Professor X, you owe me $2.29 for your misleading post.
What I always love about “controlled studies” is who knows what the hell brand of Tribulus they’re using. They could have bought the cheapest shit avaiable on the web.
WTF? - not cool. I would love to hear from the science guys about this.
The only negative side effect I’ve noticed from TRIBEX (used every formulation - history of low testosterone levels), and only from the Gold formula, is trouble falling asleep.
Otherwise, I feel more intellectually aggressive and my sex drive is very enhanced.
" Tribulus is said to increase testosterone levels by as much as 30%, especially when taken in conjunction with sopharma." WTF, sopharma? I know of Sopharma as a company that sells Tribestan , not as a product.
Wow this is like supplement propaganda in reverse!
Either the author knows little about reading/understanding science OR (the more likely situation) the author had an opinion and then tried to write an article defending that position.
The site in question prides itself on dogma so the latter possibility is more likely -forget about objectivity.
BTW-I really don’t believe that most tribulus supplementation protocols are effective, but this is due to regimen failure rather than lack of supplement efficacy.
I rate tribulus and describe an optimized protocol in The Anabolic Index: Optimized Nutrition and Performance Manual.
So is this all crap? I mean it sounds like a pretty well written article but I don’t know much about this stuff.
As Dave pointed out, this is nonsense.
Sopharma is the name of a company which produces a tribulus product, but apparently the author didn’t invest enough time to figure that out.
LH stimulates GH release from the anterior pituitary?! Where did this person take endocrinology, traffic school?
And how exactly does increasing LH lead to insulin resistance?
Also LH does not directly influence estrogen levels in men as the author also implies. Androstenedione and testosterone are the major substrates utilized for the majority of estrogens in men.
All right, I’m done being mean. I’ll try to stick with the papers this author has cited. The first (Wang) where it’s stated that it can cause coronary artery dilation and states that this is dangerous. If one actually reads the abstract, it was actually a large study performed on those in a diseased state. But more importantly, the authors state in the abstract, “If taken for a long time, it has no adverse reaction on blood system and hepatic and renal functions. Neither does it have side effects.”
The Arcasoy reference is simply an abstract where it is stated that tribulus was used in folk medicine as a diuretic (amongst other things).
The Bourke and two other references following are cases of sheep consuming the plant as a primary portion of their diet. Ignoring the fact that these sheep were consuming quantities of the plant that humans would never approach and the fact that no such adverse effects have been seen in humans nor any animal models, Bourke and other authors have concluded that the cause for the “staggers” are the beta-carboline alkaloids, harmane, norharmane and harmine and not the saponin fraction.
The Gauthaman reference was one which found increased endogenous androgen production in animal models which has nothing to do with prosteroids or prohormones.
The Jameel reference is a case study of a single male who claimed he was using tribulus. One can find more information here:
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=883263
Furthermore, in no place do the authors state that the increased occurrence of gynecomastia is a result of tribulus use. Rather, they make this statement about anabolic steroids. “Recently, an increasing use of androgenic-anabolic steroids among young men especially body-builders has increased the incidence of gynaecomastia.”
Whomever wrote this tribulus article appears to like to fabricate statements by authors.
The Li reference is one which found that the tribulus extract could reduce blood glucose in mice. But again, I’m very curious to know how the person who wrote this article justifies making a statement that this indicates that tribulus would have a negative impact on insulin sensitivity. If one were going to surmise anything, it would be the opposite.
And the rest of the article makes statements (not referenced) about decreased HDL, which I can find no evidence supporting. In terms of blood lipids, one can however find references demonstrating decreased triglycerides and LDL (a good thing).
[quote]and1bball4mk wrote:
Tribulus terrestris is a prostrate, matforming plant. Although it has been used by the Chinese for thousands of years, little was scientifically known about it until recently. Tribulus is said to increase testosterone levels by as much as 30%, especially when taken in conjunction with sopharma.
The primary mechanism of action to explain this phenomenon is that tribulus stimulates the secretion of lutenizing hormone (LH) from the anterior pituitary gland. This in turn stimulates testosterone production, as well as growth hormone and estradiol. Therefore, tribulus can easily stimulate gynecomastia (gyno) and insulin resistance. This is very negative for bodybuilders.
In women, tribulus stimulates follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and estradiol, but not testosterone. 750-1200 mg/day dosages are not uncommon and is usually stacked with 100 mg/day of DHEA (discussed later) and 100 mg/day of androstenedione. Although the rise in testosterone levels may sound attractive to many athletes, the side effects are much more dire than gynecomastia and insulin resistance.
Tribulus Terrestris has been shown to dilate the coronary arteries (Wang, 1990) and has a diuretic effect (Arcasoy, 1998). In both cases, this can put the athlete in a dangerous state. Bourke (1995) found that severe nervous and muscular locomotor disorders are directly associated with tribulus terrestris ingestion. The production of bile stones is also greatly enhanced (Miles, 1994) due to hyperplasia of the bile ducts and diffuse swelling of hepatocytes (Tapia, 1994).
Gauthaman et al. (2005) suggests that tribulus stimulates androgen production, an effect similar to that of prohormones and prosteroids. For more on prohormones, read The Truth About Prohormones. As noted above, tribulus increases the risk of developing gynecomastia. Jameel et al. (2004) confirms this by stating that the increased incidence of gynecomastia in young male athletes is a direct result of the increased use of steroids and tribulus terrestris. Other evidence suggests that the heavy diuretic effect of tribulus can cause kidney damage.
Tribulus also contains a compound called saponin, which is a class of glucosides. Saponin derived from tribulus has been shown by Li et al. (2002) to elicit a hypoglycemic effect. Serum glucose is significantly lowered with tribulus supplementation, which has negative effects on insulin sensitivity and central nervous system function (the CNS runs solely on blood glucose).
A result of prolonged tribulus supplementation may be diabetes. Further investigations by the same researchers found that tribulus lowers plasma HDL (?good? cholesterol) levels and severely restricts gluconeogenesis activity in the liver. Antonio et al. (2000) assessed the effect of tribulus supplementation (in high doses) on trained male athletes.
Over the course of the investigation, there were no changes in body weight, percentage fat, total body water, dietary intake, or mood states in either group. Slight increases in muscle strength were found in the tribulus group compared to the placebo, but the results were not significant. Antonio and his associates concluded: ?Supplementation with tribulus does not enhance body composition or exercise performance in resistance-trained males.?
Based on the available evidence, tribulus terrestris is an extremely dangerous supplement and cannot be used in a safe manner. Its supplementation should be avoided by all athletes at all times."[/quote]
[quote]Cy Willson wrote:
All right, I’m done being mean.[/quote]
But why?!
Cy, I’m glad you stepped in to deliver some reality to the article. I could smell the bullshit but it wasn’t something that I could easily debunk. Damn, I hate misinformation!
At the same time, why the hell do people have to waste your time with this crap when you could be delivering some great new supplements man? Get back to work already - we’ve been waiting for Anaconda long enough! 
[quote]Cy Willson wrote:
As Dave pointed out, this is nonsense.
Sopharma is the name of a company which produces a tribulus product, but apparently the author didn’t invest enough time to figure that out.
LH stimulates GH release from the anterior pituitary?! Where did this person take endocrinology, traffic school?
And how exactly does increasing LH lead to insulin resistance?
Also LH does not directly influence estrogen levels in men as the author also implies. Androstenedione and testosterone are the major substrates utilized for the majority of estrogens in men.
All right, I’m done being mean. I’ll try to stick with the papers this author has cited. The first (Wang) where it’s stated that it can cause coronary artery dilation and states that this is dangerous. If one actually reads the abstract, it was actually a large study performed on those in a diseased state. But more importantly, the authors state in the abstract, “If taken for a long time, it has no adverse reaction on blood system and hepatic and renal functions. Neither does it have side effects.”
The Arcasoy reference is simply an abstract where it is stated that tribulus was used in folk medicine as a diuretic (amongst other things).
The Bourke and two other references following are cases of sheep consuming the plant as a primary portion of their diet. Ignoring the fact that these sheep were consuming quantities of the plant that humans would never approach and the fact that no such adverse effects have been seen in humans nor any animal models, Bourke and other authors have concluded that the cause for the “staggers” are the beta-carboline alkaloids, harmane, norharmane and harmine and not the saponin fraction.
The Gauthaman reference was one which found increased endogenous androgen production in animal models which has nothing to do with prosteroids or prohormones.
The Jameel reference is a case study of a single male who claimed he was using tribulus. One can find more information here:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=883263
Furthermore, in no place do the authors state that the increased occurrence of gynecomastia is a result of tribulus use. Rather, they make this statement about anabolic steroids. “Recently, an increasing use of androgenic-anabolic steroids among young men especially body-builders has increased the incidence of gynaecomastia.”
Whomever wrote this tribulus article appears to like to fabricate statements by authors.
The Li reference is one which found that the tribulus extract could reduce blood glucose in mice. But again, I’m very curious to know how the person who wrote this article justifies making a statement that this indicates that tribulus would have a negative impact on insulin sensitivity. If one were going to surmise anything, it would be the opposite.
And the rest of the article makes statements (not referenced) about decreased HDL, which I can find no evidence supporting. In terms of blood lipids, one can however find references demonstrating decreased triglycerides and LDL (a good thing).
and1bball4mk wrote:
Tribulus terrestris is a prostrate, matforming plant. Although it has been used by the Chinese for thousands of years, little was scientifically known about it until recently. Tribulus is said to increase testosterone levels by as much as 30%, especially when taken in conjunction with sopharma.
The primary mechanism of action to explain this phenomenon is that tribulus stimulates the secretion of lutenizing hormone (LH) from the anterior pituitary gland. This in turn stimulates testosterone production, as well as growth hormone and estradiol. Therefore, tribulus can easily stimulate gynecomastia (gyno) and insulin resistance. This is very negative for bodybuilders.
In women, tribulus stimulates follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and estradiol, but not testosterone. 750-1200 mg/day dosages are not uncommon and is usually stacked with 100 mg/day of DHEA (discussed later) and 100 mg/day of androstenedione. Although the rise in testosterone levels may sound attractive to many athletes, the side effects are much more dire than gynecomastia and insulin resistance.
Tribulus Terrestris has been shown to dilate the coronary arteries (Wang, 1990) and has a diuretic effect (Arcasoy, 1998). In both cases, this can put the athlete in a dangerous state. Bourke (1995) found that severe nervous and muscular locomotor disorders are directly associated with tribulus terrestris ingestion. The production of bile stones is also greatly enhanced (Miles, 1994) due to hyperplasia of the bile ducts and diffuse swelling of hepatocytes (Tapia, 1994).
Gauthaman et al. (2005) suggests that tribulus stimulates androgen production, an effect similar to that of prohormones and prosteroids. For more on prohormones, read The Truth About Prohormones. As noted above, tribulus increases the risk of developing gynecomastia. Jameel et al. (2004) confirms this by stating that the increased incidence of gynecomastia in young male athletes is a direct result of the increased use of steroids and tribulus terrestris. Other evidence suggests that the heavy diuretic effect of tribulus can cause kidney damage.
Tribulus also contains a compound called saponin, which is a class of glucosides. Saponin derived from tribulus has been shown by Li et al. (2002) to elicit a hypoglycemic effect. Serum glucose is significantly lowered with tribulus supplementation, which has negative effects on insulin sensitivity and central nervous system function (the CNS runs solely on blood glucose).
A result of prolonged tribulus supplementation may be diabetes. Further investigations by the same researchers found that tribulus lowers plasma HDL (?good? cholesterol) levels and severely restricts gluconeogenesis activity in the liver. Antonio et al. (2000) assessed the effect of tribulus supplementation (in high doses) on trained male athletes.
Over the course of the investigation, there were no changes in body weight, percentage fat, total body water, dietary intake, or mood states in either group. Slight increases in muscle strength were found in the tribulus group compared to the placebo, but the results were not significant. Antonio and his associates concluded: ?Supplementation with tribulus does not enhance body composition or exercise performance in resistance-trained males.?
Based on the available evidence, tribulus terrestris is an extremely dangerous supplement and cannot be used in a safe manner. Its supplementation should be avoided by all athletes at all times."
[/quote]
Sopharma is the name of a company which produces a tribulus product, but apparently the author didn’t invest enough time to figure that out.
And it’s referencing that product.
LH stimulates GH release from the anterior pituitary?! Where did this person take endocrinology, traffic school?
"Thymosin fraction 5 stimulates prolactin and growth hormone release from anterior pituitary cells in vitro
BL Spangelo, AM Judd, PC Ross, IS Login, WD Jarvis, M Badamchian, AL Goldstein and RM MacLeod
Department of Internal Medicine, University of Virginia School of Medicine, Charlottesville 22908."
http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/121/6/2035
And how exactly does increasing LH lead to insulin resistance?
The Tribulus causes this because of the guarana in it. This works synergistically with synephrine to boost the catecholamine response and to also blunt the enzyme phosphodiesterase, which down regulates the thermogenic response and thus, the insulin receptors.
Also LH does not directly influence estrogen levels in men as the author also implies. Androstenedione and testosterone are the major substrates utilized for the majority of estrogens in men.
That was suggested by one guy. The fact that it got no more than a sentence worth means that it’s not a central point in the article, but more of an FYI.
[quote]David Barr wrote:
Either the author knows little about reading/understanding science OR (the more likely situation) the author had an opinion and then tried to write an article defending that position.
The site in question prides itself on dogma so the latter possibility is more likely -forget about objectivity.
[/quote]
You’re probably right and he is only a scientist by title because of that mindset.