Does anyone know for sure?
Nolvadex is metabolized by the liver, so it can cause hepatotoxicity. However, nolvadex has been shown to protect against alcohol-induced liver damage and estrogen-related hepatic injury (think xeno-estrogens, etc.) I’d say it’s pretty safe within the bounds of it’s prescribed dosing range. There’s no interaction with alcohol or AAS. The only real danger would be huge doses and prolonged exposure, much as anything else that would cause permanent liver damage. I can’t give an estimate of what this number could be, but I’m sure you wouldn’t reach it with typical bodybuilding use.
Thanks, good to know. My cutting diet, while possible appalling to some, consists of one organic pizza-style toaster pastry for breakfast, some trail-mix for snacks during the day, 1 double bacon cheeseburger for lunch, and 3-4 beers for dinner.
The reason I ask is because of the beers and that I am about to start PCT the day after tomorrow.
Believe it or not, the diet is actually working quite well. I only eat like this on non-training days and I eat more protein on training days. It’s working amazingly well. I’ve gone from 235-210lbs without any loss in strength.
[quote]Schwarzenegger wrote:
Nolvadex is metabolized by the liver, so it can cause hepatotoxicity. However, nolvadex has been shown to protect against alcohol-induced liver damage and estrogen-related hepatic injury (think xeno-estrogens, etc.) I’d say it’s pretty safe within the bounds of it’s prescribed dosing range. There’s no interaction with alcohol or AAS. The only real danger would be huge doses and prolonged exposure, much as anything else that would cause permanent liver damage. I can’t give an estimate of what this number could be, but I’m sure you wouldn’t reach it with typical bodybuilding use.[/quote]
Not quite.
Tamoxifen is the most studied drug ever released. There is about 50 million patient years of experience–in studies–in women for guidance.
Historically, liver dysfunction was most reported in Scandinavia in the early 1970’s; but there the standard dose was 40 mg per day, rather than 20 mg which became standard in the early 1980’s. On that dose, liver dysfunction is exceedingly rare.
Other points:
The tamoxifen protective effects are seen in rats and mice which have a different metabolism of it than do humans. I would not count on a hepato-protective effect.
Liver dysfunction occasionally associated with tamoxifen may be due to fattly liver, or “non-alcohol steatic hepatitis (NASH)” It may not be causative, but permissive; i.e., it uncovers the metabolic tendency toward NASH in middle-aged women. (And cirrhosis due to tamoxifen must be so rare as to be reportable.)
Prolonged dosing does not increase the risk of liver dysfunction.
But you are correct: doses of 20 mg per day in men is almost as safe as a peanut butter sandwich, and probably safer than tylenol with beer.
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Not quite.
Tamoxifen is the most studied drug ever released. There is about 50 million patient years of experience–in studies–in women for guidance.
Historically, liver dysfunction was most reported in Scandinavia in the early 1970’s; but there the standard dose was 40 mg per day, rather than 20 mg which became standard in the early 1980’s. On that dose, liver dysfunction is exceedingly rare.
Other points:
The tamoxifen protective effects are seen in rats and mice which have a different metabolism of it than do humans. I would not count on a hepato-protective effect.
Liver dysfunction occasionally associated with tamoxifen may be due to fattly liver, or “non-alcohol steatic hepatitis (NASH)” It may not be causative, but permissive; i.e., it uncovers the metabolic tendency toward NASH in middle-aged women. (And cirrhosis due to tamoxifen must be so rare as to be reportable.)
Prolonged dosing does not increase the risk of liver dysfunction.
But you are correct: doses of 20 mg per day in men is almost as safe as a peanut butter sandwich, and probably safer than tylenol with beer.[/quote]
Not quite what? I’m not sure if you’re trying to attack my post, but nothing I said was false. You did add relevant and useful information, but you shouldn’t defame my post because you mentioned something I didn’t. Contribute, don’t be an ass. We’re all here to learn from each other.
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[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Schwarzenegger wrote:
Nolvadex is metabolized by the liver, so it can cause hepatotoxicity. However, nolvadex has been shown to protect against alcohol-induced liver damage and estrogen-related hepatic injury (think xeno-estrogens, etc.) I’d say it’s pretty safe within the bounds of it’s prescribed dosing range. There’s no interaction with alcohol or AAS. The only real danger would be huge doses and prolonged exposure, much as anything else that would cause permanent liver damage. I can’t give an estimate of what this number could be, but I’m sure you wouldn’t reach it with typical bodybuilding use.
Not quite.
Tamoxifen is the most studied drug ever released. There is about 50 million patient years of experience–in studies–in women for guidance.
Historically, liver dysfunction was most reported in Scandinavia in the early 1970’s; but there the standard dose was 40 mg per day, rather than 20 mg which became standard in the early 1980’s. On that dose, liver dysfunction is exceedingly rare.
Other points:
The tamoxifen protective effects are seen in rats and mice which have a different metabolism of it than do humans. I would not count on a hepato-protective effect.
Liver dysfunction occasionally associated with tamoxifen may be due to fattly liver, or “non-alcohol steatic hepatitis (NASH)” It may not be causative, but permissive; i.e., it uncovers the metabolic tendency toward NASH in middle-aged women. (And cirrhosis due to tamoxifen must be so rare as to be reportable.)
Prolonged dosing does not increase the risk of liver dysfunction.
But you are correct: doses of 20 mg per day in men is almost as safe as a peanut butter sandwich, and probably safer than tylenol with beer.[/quote]
I’m sorry but I found this sentence quite curious: “prolonged dosing does not increase the risk of liver dysfunction”. Having studied pharmacology, biochem, and physiology quite extensively, I cannot see how you came up with this. The reason the liver gets scarred is because of prolonged exposure to anything that makes it work harder than it’s supposed to.
What I can basically translate your sentence to is: “It will only hurt your liver the first time you take it, but never again”. You either need to retract or give an explanation on where you got this information, as it blatantly defies the principles of hepatic function.
Hello!
Nolva was designed for very long usage and so the side-effects are quite minimal. One of the side-effects is that fat is deposited in the liver (related to the altered metabolism of the fatty acids and their estherification), but this is reversible when you stop to take Nolva in a couple of months.
[quote]JoeyD20 wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
Schwarzenegger wrote:
Nolvadex is metabolized by the liver, so it can cause hepatotoxicity. However, nolvadex has been shown to protect against alcohol-induced liver damage and estrogen-related hepatic injury (think xeno-estrogens, etc.) I’d say it’s pretty safe within the bounds of it’s prescribed dosing range. There’s no interaction with alcohol or AAS. The only real danger would be huge doses and prolonged exposure, much as anything else that would cause permanent liver damage. I can’t give an estimate of what this number could be, but I’m sure you wouldn’t reach it with typical bodybuilding use.
Not quite.
Tamoxifen is the most studied drug ever released. There is about 50 million patient years of experience–in studies–in women for guidance.
Historically, liver dysfunction was most reported in Scandinavia in the early 1970’s; but there the standard dose was 40 mg per day, rather than 20 mg which became standard in the early 1980’s. On that dose, liver dysfunction is exceedingly rare.
Other points:
The tamoxifen protective effects are seen in rats and mice which have a different metabolism of it than do humans. I would not count on a hepato-protective effect.
Liver dysfunction occasionally associated with tamoxifen may be due to fattly liver, or “non-alcohol steatic hepatitis (NASH)” It may not be causative, but permissive; i.e., it uncovers the metabolic tendency toward NASH in middle-aged women. (And cirrhosis due to tamoxifen must be so rare as to be reportable.)
Prolonged dosing does not increase the risk of liver dysfunction.
But you are correct: doses of 20 mg per day in men is almost as safe as a peanut butter sandwich, and probably safer than tylenol with beer.
I’m sorry but I found this sentence quite curious: “prolonged dosing does not increase the risk of liver dysfunction”. Having studied pharmacology, biochem, and physiology quite extensively, I cannot see how you came up with this. The reason the liver gets scarred is because of prolonged exposure to anything that makes it work harder than it’s supposed to.
What I can basically translate your sentence to is: “It will only hurt your liver the first time you take it, but never again”. You either need to retract or give an explanation on where you got this information, as it blatantly defies the principles of hepatic function.
[/quote]
Contrary to Schwarzenegger’s objection, I wasn’t intending to be an ass. It just comes so naturarlly, I guess. I was adding to his post. The subtraction was that business about “hepatoprotection” and the point you mention. Just because something is metabolized in the liver does not predict that it is hepatotoxic. Direct hepatotoxicity is exceedingly rare and I offered the explanation from the Scandinavian experience.
Dysfunction, or steatosis, does not seem to rise in incidence after the first 6 months; this rare finding is not a cumulative risk over time, but it is sporadic, and may be influeced by diet and lipid levels. (The data are available from randomized trials of tamoxifen taken for 5 years versus 10 years.) Sorry, no retraction. And while there may be greater authorities in SERM pharmacology, I have been involved in this research for 25 years.
Now then. All friends again?
I was taking nolva for about a month, half it it at 40mg, and my liver values rised a bit… nothing dangerous, but compared to previous tests, they were higher.
[quote]JasonR wrote:
I was taking nolva for about a month, half it it at 40mg, and my liver values rised a bit… nothing dangerous, but compared to previous tests, they were higher. [/quote]
Well, they could still have been elevated from your cycle. Unless you were just taking nolva in isolation and not after a cycle. People do this for a temporary boost-sometimes paired with arimidex-but not usually at 40mg. Usually a lower dose, 20mg.
It was 2 months after the last oral dose and i month after the last test shot… so i dont think its the cycle… maybe…