Ever since humans began turning applied intelligence in the form of technology to making life more secure, comfortable, and generally less burdensome, there has been a pervasive element among them who took it upon themselves to oppose and condemn what most were inclined to view as a bettering of their condition.
There seems to be something akin to a religious guilt complex at work, in which the seeking of creature comforts and a reprieve from toil and drudgery is seen as sinful, and atonement calls for renouncing the benefits and returning to the rigors of a simpler but more virtuous, soul-cleansing life.
(It’s interesting to note that the guilt tends to be expressed primarily by the more affluent, articulate, and influential, whose own standards will be little affected by the sacrifices demanded of those who are supposed to do the atoning.)
No, it is not a sin. I am guessing that you mean sin within the religious context. God gave us a working brain that is always searching for a better solution to a problem. You should tell those same people at your work who criticize our technological advances to go live in a home without heat, along with no use of a car, and having to hunt your own food. I think you will see a quick change of opinion.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
No, it is not a sin. I am guessing that you mean sin within the religious context. God gave us a working brain that is always searching for a better solution to a problem. You should tell those same people at your work who criticize our technological advances to go live in a home without heat, along with no use of a car, and having to hunt your own food. I think you will see a quick change of opinion. [/quote]
I was inspired to this thread by the “Avatar” movie, wherein the simple native culture is held up as good, while the technologically advanced civilisation is regarded as evil somehow.
There seems to be a movement at hand that is anti-technology, and for the life of me I can’t understand why most people don’t totally reject the idea.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
No, it is not a sin. I am guessing that you mean sin within the religious context. God gave us a working brain that is always searching for a better solution to a problem. You should tell those same people at your work who criticize our technological advances to go live in a home without heat, along with no use of a car, and having to hunt your own food. I think you will see a quick change of opinion. [/quote]
so not admitting something is a sin makes it clean?
I agree that it isn’t a sin. But do humans really live easier, ‘less burdensome’ lives now? I mean, compare the cost of things today as they were even 50-100 years ago. The idea of just one person working in a family to support is a rarity today. it could be argued that we work longer, more stressful jobs, with the invent of computers, the internet, and phones, because we are “always connected”.
I personally feel that humans today, in general, have much harder, more stressful lives than they have had in the past. (obviously discounting slavery or indentured servitude).
I think the OP is a little off-base. The religious people who he claims are condemning creature comforts don’t have a problem with using our intelligence and ability to reason to better our lives. They have a problem with people who value material things that make our life more convenient above spiritual matters. Essentially, the religious people he talks of have a problem when people value convenience over spirituality.
I saw a prime example of this on Christmas at my grandmother’s house. In one room, all of my aunt and uncles were talking amongst each other and the conversations all revolved around how much money they had, what kind of new car they were going to get, where they were going for vacation, etc etc. No one was discussing anything that REALLY matters, such as familial relations and spiritual matters. They’re spiritually bankrupt because they equate themselves with what they own.
In the other room were all of my cousins. They were all obsessed with their iPhones and iTouches and pocket Gameboys and no one was speaking to anyone else. Seven people in the room, total silence. But if you condemn people for seeking a more comfortable life, you may as well start with the earliest hunter/gatherers and condemn them for seeking better hunting/gathering techniques.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
I agree that it isn’t a sin. But do humans really live easier, ‘less burdensome’ lives now? I mean, compare the cost of things today as they were even 50-100 years ago. The idea of just one person working in a family to support is a rarity today. it could be argued that we work longer, more stressful jobs, with the invent of computers, the internet, and phones, because we are “always connected”. I personally feel that humans today, in general, have much harder, more stressful lives than they have had in the past. (obviously discounting slavery or indentured servitude). [/quote]
[quote]artw wrote:
I think the OP is a little off-base. The religious people who he claims are condemning creature comforts don’t have a problem with using our intelligence and ability to reason to better our lives. They have a problem with people who value material things that make our life more convenient above spiritual matters. Essentially, the religious people he talks of have a problem when people value convenience over spirituality.
I saw a prime example of this on Christmas at my grandmother’s house. In one room, all of my aunt and uncles were talking amongst each other and the conversations all revolved around how much money they had, what kind of new car they were going to get, where they were going for vacation, etc etc. No one was discussing anything that REALLY matters, such as familial relations and spiritual matters. They’re spiritually bankrupt because they equate themselves with what they own.
In the other room were all of my cousins. They were all obsessed with their iPhones and iTouches and pocket Gameboys and no one was speaking to anyone else. Seven people in the room, total silence. But if you condemn people for seeking a more comfortable life, you may as well start with the earliest hunter/gatherers and condemn them for seeking better hunting/gathering techniques. [/quote]
Well said… and pretty much a cross-section of average America.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
I agree that it isn’t a sin. But do humans really live easier, ‘less burdensome’ lives now? I mean, compare the cost of things today as they were even 50-100 years ago. The idea of just one person working in a family to support is a rarity today. it could be argued that we work longer, more stressful jobs, with the invent of computers, the internet, and phones, because we are “always connected”. I personally feel that humans today, in general, have much harder, more stressful lives than they have had in the past. (obviously discounting slavery or indentured servitude). [/quote]
Dentistry, indoor plumbing, electricity.
[/quote]
We take so much for granted. To add to your list, a big one is air conditioning. Think of how miserable it is without that. Clothing as well – machines make just about all clothing.
In my math classes, my students will often ask: “When am I ever going to use this in life?” They don’t realize how math/science/technology has made their lives so much better that its really unfathomable.
[quote]artw wrote:
I think the OP is a little off-base. The religious people who he claims are condemning creature comforts don’t have a problem with using our intelligence and ability to reason to better our lives. They have a problem with people who value material things that make our life more convenient above spiritual matters. Essentially, the religious people he talks of have a problem when people value convenience over spirituality.
I saw a prime example of this on Christmas at my grandmother’s house. In one room, all of my aunt and uncles were talking amongst each other and the conversations all revolved around how much money they had, what kind of new car they were going to get, where they were going for vacation, etc etc. No one was discussing anything that REALLY matters, such as familial relations and spiritual matters. They’re spiritually bankrupt because they equate themselves with what they own.
In the other room were all of my cousins. They were all obsessed with their iPhones and iTouches and pocket Gameboys and no one was speaking to anyone else. Seven people in the room, total silence. But if you condemn people for seeking a more comfortable life, you may as well start with the earliest hunter/gatherers and condemn them for seeking better hunting/gathering techniques. [/quote]
Well said… and pretty much a cross-section of average America.
[/quote]
If by “living well” you mean locking onesself in a small closet with a porn-laden computer and armed to the teeth with lube and tissues and a lot of time, then my answer is a resounding
[quote]artw wrote:
I think the OP is a little off-base. The religious people who he claims are condemning creature comforts don’t have a problem with using our intelligence and ability to reason to better our lives. They have a problem with people who value material things that make our life more convenient above spiritual matters. Essentially, the religious people he talks of have a problem when people value convenience over spirituality.
I saw a prime example of this on Christmas at my grandmother’s house. In one room, all of my aunt and uncles were talking amongst each other and the conversations all revolved around how much money they had, what kind of new car they were going to get, where they were going for vacation, etc etc. No one was discussing anything that REALLY matters, such as familial relations and spiritual matters. They’re spiritually bankrupt because they equate themselves with what they own.
In the other room were all of my cousins. They were all obsessed with their iPhones and iTouches and pocket Gameboys and no one was speaking to anyone else. Seven people in the room, total silence. But if you condemn people for seeking a more comfortable life, you may as well start with the earliest hunter/gatherers and condemn them for seeking better hunting/gathering techniques. [/quote]
True. However, and quite conveniently, if you look at the Protestant Ethic individuals are encouraged to work hard and reap the rewards of their hard work (i.e. make loads if money) because that’s what God wants them to do. Phew! Rapture, here we come!
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
I agree that it isn’t a sin. But do humans really live easier, ‘less burdensome’ lives now? I mean, compare the cost of things today as they were even 50-100 years ago. The idea of just one person working in a family to support is a rarity today. it could be argued that we work longer, more stressful jobs, with the invent of computers, the internet, and phones, because we are “always connected”.
I personally feel that humans today, in general, have much harder, more stressful lives than they have had in the past. (obviously discounting slavery or indentured servitude). [/quote]
Since world war 2 we have literally doubled the amount of stuff we all own and our houses are bigger. We have increased our productivity level 91 percent since world war 2 also. In the 1950s sociologists were beginning to study the problems of the future, they believed the biggest was going to be free time with a minimum work week of 13 hours and a max under 20. Instead we kept wanting more and more stuff. The EU did things differently, they have a GDP that is 71% of ours…but they have a 35 hour work week and 6 more weeks a year paid vacation and we spend 18% more of our GDP on health care then they do
True. However, and quite conveniently, if you look at the Protestant Ethic individuals are encouraged to work hard and reap the rewards of their hard work (i.e. make loads if money) because that’s what God wants them to do. Phew! Rapture, here we come!
[/quote]
Well, if the protestants follow the bible, no where does it say anything about God wanting us to be rich. Second, i think that the problem isn’t that the things people acquire is a sin, but rather, how those things are viewed that makes it a sin.
[quote]artw wrote:
I think the OP is a little off-base. The religious people who he claims are condemning creature comforts don’t have a problem with using our intelligence and ability to reason to better our lives. They have a problem with people who value material things that make our life more convenient above spiritual matters. Essentially, the religious people he talks of have a problem when people value convenience over spirituality.
[/quote]
Well said…especially in relation to HH’s false accusation of people being “anti-technology” in “Avatar” movie thread.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
I agree that it isn’t a sin. But do humans really live easier, ‘less burdensome’ lives now? I mean, compare the cost of things today as they were even 50-100 years ago. The idea of just one person working in a family to support is a rarity today. it could be argued that we work longer, more stressful jobs, with the invent of computers, the internet, and phones, because we are “always connected”.
I personally feel that humans today, in general, have much harder, more stressful lives than they have had in the past. (obviously discounting slavery or indentured servitude). [/quote]
Since world war 2 we have literally doubled the amount of stuff we all own and our houses are bigger. We have increased our productivity level 91 percent since world war 2 also. In the 1950s sociologists were beginning to study the problems of the future, they believed the biggest was going to be free time with a minimum work week of 13 hours and a max under 20. Instead we kept wanting more and more stuff. The EU did things differently, they have a GDP that is 71% of ours…but they have a 35 hour work week and 6 more weeks a year paid vacation and we spend 18% more of our GDP on health care then they do[/quote]
Let me ask this. Do we really have the option to work less hours? If want a modest home, and a modest car, to work just 35 hours a week on a single income is prohibited for most of the united states.
but i do agree with the fact about us being out of control with our greed as a whole.
Well, if the protestants follow the bible, no where does it say anything about God wanting us to be rich. Second, i think that the problem isn’t that the things people acquire is a sin, but rather, how those things are viewed that makes it a sin.[/quote]
no you’re right it doesn’t say that. But the protestant ethic is based on the Calvinist principle that nothing pleases God more than finding a vocation and committing to it with gusto. If a consequence of that is this is that you have made ass-loads of dough, then you have pleased God.
FWIW this is Max Weber’s theory on the Spirit of Capitalism, which apropos to this thread, he concludes - due to rationalization (i.e humans using their intellect and creating science/technology) the religious beliefs behind the protestant ethic eventually get dropped and we are simply left with capitalism.
Ask all of the hippies from the mid to late 60’s what they think of a Utopian movement. They rejected social norms, moved from the city centers and started communes. Then after a couple of years of hard work with no gain, they quit, moved back in to society, and became part of what they were rebelling against.
It’s just another old idea that is getting recycled again.
Well, if the protestants follow the bible, no where does it say anything about God wanting us to be rich. Second, i think that the problem isn’t that the things people acquire is a sin, but rather, how those things are viewed that makes it a sin.[/quote]
no you’re right it doesn’t say that. But the protestant ethic is based on the Calvinist principle that nothing pleases God more than finding a vocation and committing to it with gusto. If a consequence of that is this is that you have made ass-loads of dough, then you have pleased God.
FWIW this is Max Weber’s theory on the Spirit of Capitalism, which apropos to this thread, he concludes - due to rationalization (i.e humans using their intellect and creating science/technology) the religious beliefs behind the protestant ethic eventually get dropped and we are simply left with capitalism. [/quote]
Even if the protestant ethic IS based on the principle, the problem is still the same. the bible does not say to work at a vocation to the fullest. In fact it says just the opposite. It says to not use this life to the “fullest”.
Second, your second point is pretty much was has happened even inside of religion for the most part. the ‘religious’ part is sort of pushed to the back burner, will human nature has taken the reign.