Vegetarian/Vegan Diet Questions

Diet and Nutrition
1

Hello friendS!, I�m writing you from Chile (far far away hehehe ). I�ve read your articles in T-Nation and I�m interested in your thread �Vegetarian/Vegan Building�. I�m trying to investigate about complete vegetal proteins. In my country we don�t have a lot of vegan supplements, we can just get �Supro� (Protein isolated soy). For that reason I�ve been searching information about vegan food (Not supplements) that�s natural (not processed) and that contains complete proteins (vegetable proteins).

My questions are:

-Which sources of vegetable complete proteins do you know about? and do you have some scientific papers about it to look forward?

-Is it necessary to combine incomplete vegetable proteins to get complete proteins? And in case it�s necessary should I combine them on the same meal or just during the same day on different meals?

-How can i obtain a low carbo and high protein diet being vegan/vegetarian? What foods should I eat?

I would like to write you more, but my english isn�t very good so I had a hard time writing this message hehehe. Thanks a lot for sharing your experience and information with us!

Bye bye!

2

Idk how much help I can be, but I do use vegan/vegetarian protein powder. It’s a blend of rice and pea powder, being about 30 percent rice and 70 pea, as I did some research and found that to be the most similar Amino Acid profile to whey protein.

Idk how to go low-carb and high protein vegetarian/vegan, but I do know eating a large helping of rice, beans, and multi-grain breads can rack up the protein pretty quick. Nut butters are also very good. Eggs if you’re alright with I suppose, more vegetarian over vegan,

I’m not a fan of this dude, but he’s a veg PL’er, and has a video on his protein sources.

3

I’m not vegan/vegetarian/whatever but my current diet at home is 100% lacto-ovo-vegetarian If I eat a work or the wife and I go out for lunch/dinner and/or have been invited elsewhere - I gorge on animal flesh!

Anyhoo - If you’re vegan and want to go high protein and low carb then load up on tofu/tempeh, nuts, mushrooms (almost 100% protein), beans/legumes/peas (be careful with the carb count though), sunflower and flax seeds.

If you can add dairy (i.e. not vegan) then load up on quark (the ULTIMATE food), cottage cheese (watch the carbs a tad), hard cheeses (the fat content can get out of control here so be careful).

If you can add eggs as well - then honestly you have no problem.

4

[quote]soweird wrote:
-How can i obtain a low carbo and high protein diet being vegan/vegetarian? What foods should I eat?
[/quote]

Veggie no problem, true vegan -You pretty much cant.

Get hold of some, Leucine, BCAAs, Humapro etc

5

I went full Vegan last year and with a little research and experimentation I found several protein and carb sources that are easy to balance throughout the day to create any diet plan you want: 20%fat-55%carb-35% protein, 30%fat-40%carb-30%protein, etc. I am currently on 20%fat, 54% carb, 26%protein. I would suggest considering going organic as well to eliminate as much processed food as possible.

The following foods make up my weekly diet:
Grains (oatmeal, quinoa, buckwheat, wild rice, long grain brown rice, )
Veggies (spinach, asparagus, yellow squash, broccoli, cauliflower, corn, cucumber, onion, peas, bell peppers, )
Beans/Legumes: (black beans, kidney beans, chick peas, peanuts, lentils, )
Seeds (chia, hemp, sunflower, pumpkin, flax, )
Fruits (orange juice, mandarin oranges, grapes, blueberries, cranberries, bananas, avocado, tomato)
Nuts (almonds, pistachios, almond butter, cashew butter, )
Meal bars (odwalla banana nut, odwalla orange cranberry, zing orange cranberry, zing coconut crunch, )
Protein powder (Garden of Life-RAW)
I avoid soy but will eat these if I don’t have any other protein source: (edamame, soy nuts, tofu, )

All of these are low glycemic index foods meaning that you can keep glucose steady throughout the day.

Spend a little time googling different food sources for calorie, macronutrient, micronutrient, and glycemic load/index. I believe you will feel better and are likely to eat an even more balanced meal plan due to the attention required to your food and meal choices.

I’ll be glad to share a full meal plan with macronutrient info if that would be helpful to you.

Best of luck and success to you!

6

I am a little hesitant to post this because it is not likely to help anyone, but I believe that most plant protein is anti-nutritious. It ranges from allergenic, to auto-immune provoking to damaging of intestinal flora, to toxic. Grain and bean fiber as well as protein are all net negative nutrients. They may very well cause net catabolism.

If I was committed to go Vegan, I would try to do the best I could with the least protein possible. Since greens have benefits, go ahead and eat spinach and brussel sprouts, and the same goes for mushrooms.

The browner the grain the more damaging it is for colonocytes, which means leaky gut syndrome.

White rice and potatoes. If you are willing to take BCAAs or Leucine without asking where it might be coming from then you have a chance. Not only are many plant proteins allergenic and toxic, but you need 2-3X as much of them to maintain nitrogen balance. You mine as well be doing it by upping your carbs at that point, and limiting your workouts.

Even seeds and nuts will put you over your optimal omega-6 level a about 2+ oz a day. The only zero-toxic food is nearly pure saturated fat. MUFA and saturated fat heavy plant oils are next. Animal meat protein is next, fiberious veggies, and potatoes and rice. 2-3 servings of fruit and 1-2 servings of nuts/seeds though coconut and macadamia can go higher.

Not to mention that Vegan diets are absolutely deficient in a few essential nutrients. (no retinol, little dietary cholesterol, and diabetes provoking choline deficiency).
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/11/dangers-of-a-zero-carb-diet-ii-micronutrient-deficiencies/

7

Hi Mertdawg.

It’s been a long time since we traded comments in these forums. Hope things are well with you.

You raise several interesting points.

Having made the commitment to veganism, I can share that it forces you to be tenacious when sorting through nutrient topics.

For example, Choline can easily be added to the vegan diet through broccoli, quinoa, tofu, and other sources.

There are several plant sources of pro-biotics to keep the intestines healthy, my favorite of which is Garden of Life RAW protein powder.

BCAAs don’t need to force a compromise as Leucine is available through soybeans and lentils, Isoleucine through almonds, cashews, and chickpeas, and Valine through peanuts, sesame seeds, and lentils.

Relying too heavily on nut and seeds can cause high levels of Omega 6 in your diet, as you point out, but I would draw a parallel to the many faults in non vegan diets either through negligence or preference. In other words, are any of our diets perfect? :slight_smile: For me, I keep an eye on nuts and seeds, which is difficult because I love them just like a comfort food. Those and peanut butter!

8

If you can get specific amino acids, pure and not from milk then you should be able to do alright, though I believe that from a health perspective it is harder to get optimal nutrition a vegan diet and most of the health harms that people associate with animal foods are not really a problem with animal based foods per-se, but with the American version of a mixed diet.

If you eat high quality meat, potatoes, fibrous vegetables and fish you have very little thinking to do as far as nutrition. You won’t be deficient, and if you make the right choices you will be eating “clean” by my definition.

If you eat Vegan you have several specific things that you need to make sure to eat regularly or you can have deficiencies. And I personally would still not go for wheat ever by the way. I might cycle small amounts of beans, better grain choices, seeds, nuts, and mostly potatoes and rice.

I DO go for about 3-4 months worth of the year not eating warm blooded animal meat, but it makes things harder not easier in my opinion. I still eat fish and eggs.

9

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
I am a little hesitant to post this because it is not likely to help anyone, but I believe that most plant protein is anti-nutritious. It ranges from allergenic, to auto-immune provoking to damaging of intestinal flora, to toxic. Grain and bean fiber as well as protein are all net negative nutrients. They may very well cause net catabolism.

The browner the grain the more damaging it is for colonocytes, which means leaky gut syndrome.
[/quote]

I have Crohn’s diseaase, but I find that brown rice helps a lot. Any idea why that could be?

10

[quote]knokkelezoute73 wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
I am a little hesitant to post this because it is not likely to help anyone, but I believe that most plant protein is anti-nutritious. It ranges from allergenic, to auto-immune provoking to damaging of intestinal flora, to toxic. Grain and bean fiber as well as protein are all net negative nutrients. They may very well cause net catabolism.

The browner the grain the more damaging it is for colonocytes, which means leaky gut syndrome.
[/quote]

I have Crohn’s diseaase, but I find that brown rice helps a lot. Any idea why that could be?[/quote]

You mean it helps compared to white rice, or compared to worse things like wheat and oats?

11

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]knokkelezoute73 wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
I am a little hesitant to post this because it is not likely to help anyone, but I believe that most plant protein is anti-nutritious. It ranges from allergenic, to auto-immune provoking to damaging of intestinal flora, to toxic. Grain and bean fiber as well as protein are all net negative nutrients. They may very well cause net catabolism.

The browner the grain the more damaging it is for colonocytes, which means leaky gut syndrome.
[/quote]

I have Crohn’s diseaase, but I find that brown rice helps a lot. Any idea why that could be?[/quote]

You mean it helps compared to white rice, or compared to worse things like wheat and oats?
[/quote]

Yes, compared to white rice (which does not seem to cause harm, but just doesn’t help, unlike brown rice). I avoid wheat and oats, and milk.

12

The most common recommendation for Crohn’s is to eat white rice. Do you eat omega-6 (or omega-3) rich oils? Brown rice has very minimal fiber though which is good since psyllium causes leaky gut and exacerbates autoimmune flare ups. I’ll look more into it. Maybe the brown rice helps move other problematic substances through, or sops them up, or maybe it has something that helps good bacteria.

13

I could expound on this and go into detail but what I will tell you as a plant based eater is to pick up a book by Ryan Andrews called '“Drop the Fat Act and Live Lean” in it he’ll explain the 8 EAAs, where they come from in higher amounts in plants and other things and how to make it work. It’s a good read that will give you what you’re looking for :slight_smile:

14

[quote]Efuchs7 wrote:
I could expound on this and go into detail but what I will tell you as a plant based eater is to pick up a book by Ryan Andrews called '“Drop the Fat Act and Live Lean” in it he’ll explain the 8 EAAs, where they come from in higher amounts in plants and other things and how to make it work. It’s a good read that will give you what you’re looking for :)[/quote]

Here is one of his quotes: “I don’t think whole, unprocessed carb dense foods like grains and beans are resulting in health problems.”

Contrast with this line of logic:

Basically we are on pace to have 1/3 of Americans with type II diabetes by 2050. It is autoimmune. Autoimmune disease is almost certainly instigated by leaky gut and bad gut flora resulting from grains and beans. Also the gut lining is protected primarily from Butyrate which either comes from animal fat, or from gut flora processing CELLULOSE and PECTIN (not grain fiber).

15

I try to eat lacto-ovo as much as possible. My diet is usually something like this:

Breakfast - Cottage cheese pancakes or Egg dish (40-50 grams protein)

Lunch - Protein Shake with Pea/Rice protein and Broccoli/Kale (35 grams protein)

Mid-day Snack - 1 cup cottage cheese + energy/protein bar (40 grams protein)

Workout

Dinner - Tempeh/Tofu stirfry or Fish meal - (40 grams protein)

Snack - Nuts, hummus/veggies, cottage cheese, etc.

16

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
The most common recommendation for Crohn’s is to eat white rice. Do you eat omega-6 (or omega-3) rich oils? Brown rice has very minimal fiber though which is good since psyllium causes leaky gut and exacerbates autoimmune flare ups. I’ll look more into it. Maybe the brown rice helps move other problematic substances through, or sops them up, or maybe it has something that helps good bacteria. [/quote]

Yes, I wonder what it could be.
I try to limit omega-6. However supplementing with omega-3 has not helped at all, migt even have been slightly negative, when I was giving it a go.
If you find more info, this would be great. Thanks.

17

Well Omega-3s can be as bad as Omega-6s or worse. The guidelines I follow are to keep my Omega-6s so low that I can keep my Omega-3s as low as absolutely necessary. About 2-3 grams of Omega-3s and 4-7 Omega-6s (realizing that I will probably really be more like 7-15 on the Omega-6s if I aim for 4-6.

18

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Well Omega-3s can be as bad as Omega-6s or worse. The guidelines I follow are to keep my Omega-6s so low that I can keep my Omega-3s as low as absolutely necessary. About 2-3 grams of Omega-3s and 4-7 Omega-6s (realizing that I will probably really be more like 7-15 on the Omega-6s if I aim for 4-6.[/quote]

Mertdawg how low is your fat intake per day to keep your Omege-6s that low/what does the bulk of your fat intake look like?

19

On a typical day my fat intake is 50% to 60% fat with about 2650 total calories. It is easier to calculate what’s left over as I probably average 150 grams of carbs and 170 grams of protein.

That leaves 150 grams of fat.

I eat butter, half and half, ground bison and sometimes beef, or steak, maybe 4 egg yolks on average, about 2 tbs of other oils which I cycle between coconut, red palm, olive, avocado (or actual avocado), macadamia, fish oil capsules, and occasionally almond, hazelnut, brazil nut.

A little quick math averaging out a week and I’d say that out of 150 grams of fat,

100 is from butter and usually ground bison.
maybe 10 from fish or fish oil
20 from egg yolk
10 from the oils listed: coconut, red palm, olive, avocado, macadamia
10 from nuts: hazel, brazil, almond, or butters. I get about 1 ounce of nuts per day

That is really close for maintenance.

I have considered cycling high oleic sunflower and safflower into the oil mix. If I cut down on butter or bison for a stretch I may bring the “oils” up some.

20

If I get milk and cheese fat it would come out of the butter or meat fat.