Is Jeet Kune Do a Legit System?

Training
41

cstratton2, do you have any videos of Mr. Carruthers actually sparring full contact (or even light contact, but full resistance) with anyone? He obviously has great “miles per hour” speed, but it’s hard gauge someone’s actual combative prowess through watching them just punch and kick air. I’m sure we could all find other examples of Martial Artists who can look really impressive while demonstrating things in the air or against cooperating students, but couldn’t fight their way out of a wet paper bag (not suggesting that Mr. Carruthers falls into that category, just saying that demoing is one thing, actually being able to fight is another).

Or, if not him, do you have any videos of any of his students sparring/fighting?

42

Also thought this video was relevant to this discussion:

IMO Bruce would have most certainly taken skills from Muay Thai (stuff from the clinch especially), in fact according to Lewis Bruce had already realized that kicking with the top of the foot (like they do in systems like TKD) was inferior to kicking with the shin bone like the Thais do.

He absolutely would have incorporated stuff from BJJ (though, being a RMA guy himself, probably would have realized that a lot of sport BJJ is impractical for the real world) and more from wrestling (especially take down defense stuff).

And honestly I think that he probably would have gotten into tactical firearms training, Ninpo stealth and mindset training (you could already see in several of his movies that he was into this type of stuff, with the boom of Ninjutsu in the 80’s you can bet he would have sought out and trained with the likes of Bussey, Rosenbach, and Hayes), and cerebral self defense tactics had he had the chance to.

43

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Also thought this video was relevant to this discussion:

IMO Bruce would have most certainly taken skills from Muay Thai (stuff from the clinch especially), in fact according to Lewis Bruce had already realized that kicking with the top of the foot (like they do in systems like TKD) was inferior to kicking with the shin bone like the Thais do.

He absolutely would have incorporated stuff from BJJ (though, being a RMA guy himself, probably would have realized that a lot of sport BJJ is impractical for the real world) and more from wrestling (especially take down defense stuff).

And honestly I think that he probably would have gotten into tactical firearms training, Ninpo stealth and mindset training (you could already see in several of his movies that he was into this type of stuff, with the boom of Ninjutsu in the 80’s you can bet he would have sought out and trained with the likes of Bussey, Rosenbach, and Hayes), and cerebral self defense tactics had he had the chance to. [/quote]

Interestingly, at a very high level of conditioning and experience, you will see Nak Muay throw very effective kicks with the top of their foot. But at a lower level, with less experience and probably less hardened body, a lesser fighter could break their foot. I for one hurt myself everytime I throw a kick that connects with the top of the foot.

But I really like your point about the tactical firearms training. I consider military servicemen and women to be ‘martial artists’ in a sense. Think attack chopper pilots, infantrymen, snipers etc. All of them are trained in very direct methods of fighting that require physical and mental training. That is assuming you consider hellfire missiles ‘direct’.

EDIT: That was a good video, Sento, Ta mate.

44

[quote]Pigeonkak wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Also thought this video was relevant to this discussion:

IMO Bruce would have most certainly taken skills from Muay Thai (stuff from the clinch especially), in fact according to Lewis Bruce had already realized that kicking with the top of the foot (like they do in systems like TKD) was inferior to kicking with the shin bone like the Thais do.

He absolutely would have incorporated stuff from BJJ (though, being a RMA guy himself, probably would have realized that a lot of sport BJJ is impractical for the real world) and more from wrestling (especially take down defense stuff).

And honestly I think that he probably would have gotten into tactical firearms training, Ninpo stealth and mindset training (you could already see in several of his movies that he was into this type of stuff, with the boom of Ninjutsu in the 80’s you can bet he would have sought out and trained with the likes of Bussey, Rosenbach, and Hayes), and cerebral self defense tactics had he had the chance to. [/quote]

Interestingly, at a very high level of conditioning and experience, you will see Nak Muay throw very effective kicks with the top of their foot. But at a lower level, with less experience and probably less hardened body, a lesser fighter could break their foot. I for one hurt myself everytime I throw a kick that connects with the top of the foot.

But I really like your point about the tactical firearms training. I consider military servicemen and women to be ‘martial artists’ in a sense. Think attack chopper pilots, infantrymen, snipers etc. All of them are trained in very direct methods of fighting that require physical and mental training. That is assuming you consider hellfire missiles ‘direct’.

EDIT: That was a good video, Sento, Ta mate.
[/quote]

Yeah, with enough accuracy, timing, and conditioning you can throw effective strikes with the top of the foot (or even the toe, especially if you’re wearing hard/steel toed shoes/boots). But even then there is definitely a greater risk of injuring your foot should you accidentally hit something hard. I just though it was interesting how Lewis had said that about Lee, proving that he was constantly looking for better ways to do things and had come to the same conclusion as the Thais who have been kicking each other full contact for a loooong time.

I totally agree about military personnel being martial artists; in fact many of the martial arts that we know of today were originally utilized by soldiers on the battlefield (Jujutsu, Kenjutsu, TKD, Krav Maga, even Muay Boran which later became Muay Thai was utilized on the fields of battle).

Edited: Thanks. OSS

45

“But I really like your point about the tactical firearms training. I consider military servicemen and women to be ‘martial artists’ in a sense”

“I totally agree about military personnel being martial artists; in fact many of the martial arts that we know of today were originally utilized by soldiers on the battlefield (Jujutsu, Kenjutsu, TKD, Krav Maga, even Muay Boran which later became Muay Thai was utilized on the fields of battle”).

Good and accurate comments: Just for a follow up on your thoughts, thought you would be interested in this weeks’ training:

All training conducted in body armor, elbow and knee tactical pads, including a outdoor session in striking

tactical room clearing with small arms, which included handguns, shotguns, and SMG’s

Battlefeild takedowns, followed up with a firearm or knife assault

obstacle course in body armor( no helmet), including a handgun drill at completion

Muay Thai basics in battle rattle, elbows, knees and very low kicks, dont use hand strikes if they can be avoided, due to possible broken fingers, cannot manipulate triggers…etc

basic JJ in body armor

2 on 1 or 3 on 1 sparring drills in protective gear, plus body armor, no head strikes due to injury control, but , 50 % to body, takedowns allowed, purpose of the drill is demostrate how YOU, REGARDLESS OF YOUR SKILL, has to work in a team and that YOU, MY WARRIOR, ARE NOT SUPERMAN.

simple takedowns and very basic knife defense in body armor

we stress full gear as much as possible because thats what your will be wearing during operations

hellfire missles are in another league:))

46

[quote]idaho wrote:
“But I really like your point about the tactical firearms training. I consider military servicemen and women to be ‘martial artists’ in a sense”

“I totally agree about military personnel being martial artists; in fact many of the martial arts that we know of today were originally utilized by soldiers on the battlefield (Jujutsu, Kenjutsu, TKD, Krav Maga, even Muay Boran which later became Muay Thai was utilized on the fields of battle”).

Good and accurate comments: Just for a follow up on your thoughts, thought you would be interested in this weeks’ training:

All training conducted in body armor, elbow and knee tactical pads, including a outdoor session in striking

tactical room clearing with small arms, which included handguns, shotguns, and SMG’s

Battlefeild takedowns, followed up with a firearm or knife assault

obstacle course in body armor( no helmet), including a handgun drill at completion

Muay Thai basics in battle rattle, elbows, knees and very low kicks, dont use hand strikes if they can be avoided, due to possible broken fingers, cannot manipulate triggers…etc

basic JJ in body armor

2 on 1 or 3 on 1 sparring drills in protective gear, plus body armor, no head strikes due to injury control, but , 50 % to body, takedowns allowed, purpose of the drill is demostrate how YOU, REGARDLESS OF YOUR SKILL, has to work in a team and that YOU, MY WARRIOR, ARE NOT SUPERMAN.

simple takedowns and very basic knife defense in body armor

we stress full gear as much as possible because thats what your will be wearing during operations

hellfire missles are in another league:))

       [/quote]

Sounds like a pretty good week:)

Also, armour/equipment really changes the things as far as mobility etc is concerned. Even the soft, concealable stuff with a basic retention belt impedes you to a point, heavy stuff much more so (obviously). Obviously, guys in armour generally rely on weapons and team tactics as opposed to scrapping it out mano y mano. However it really is a separate martial art in it’s own right to go hands on in full gear, while managing weapon retention etc.

Edit: Dynamic transitioning between weapon systems (i.e. rifle to pistol), tactical mag changing, managing malfunctions etc. would fall under the umbrella of modern Martial arts as well IMO.

Love the 2/3 on ones for humility. We do a drill called “fugitive crawl” for basic aggression in really new trainees. Basically you get one guy on his hands and knees and another guy kneeling beside him, hands on his back. At the whistle the guy on his hands and knees tries to cover a given distance without rising to his feet and the other guy tries to stop him.

No strikes joint manipulation or biting etc allowed. Over time 2 on ones are added in. Really fun drill, especially for new people to get over the touch barrier. Anyway, I’m sometimes guilty of a little overconfidence with HTH stuff so when I dropped down to demonstrate the appropriate level of mental intensity for the drill, my fellow instructor stuck the 3 biggest dudes from this class on my back and let me have at it. I fought like a demon, but (especially without weapons or “dirty” stuff) teamwork and sheer mass of numbers won out pretty quick. Humbling for me and a good lesson for them.

47

[quote]Dave 966 wrote:
Sorry to hijack the thread but I don’t know how to pm people.

CSTRATTON2 - you sound experienced in JKD. I live in N Wales and am considering training with one of the JKD schools in Wrexham (there are 3). Have you had anything to do or know anything about any of them? Can you recommend a school in my area?

Thanks [/quote]

Yeah I know at least a couple in that area… I will let you know but better to just add me on facebook or something if you have it and then I could contact you there for legit people, one quick google search already resulted in some serious BS martial arts…

https://www.facebook…todd.stratton.7

48

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
cstratton2, do you have any videos of Mr. Carruthers actually sparring full contact (or even light contact, but full resistance) with anyone? He obviously has great “miles per hour” speed, but it’s hard gauge someone’s actual combative prowess through watching them just punch and kick air. I’m sure we could all find other examples of Martial Artists who can look really impressive while demonstrating things in the air or against cooperating students, but couldn’t fight their way out of a wet paper bag (not suggesting that Mr. Carruthers falls into that category, just saying that demoing is one thing, actually being able to fight is another).

Or, if not him, do you have any videos of any of his students sparring/fighting?

No I hear you there, Yeah well the thing is usually there is no back and forth chess like sparring in it as I have already mentioned, He does however have his students attack one another and sometimes fight with no gear usually resulting in a lot of shiners, bloody noses, and some serious bruises… basically the premise is train the way you would fight on the street… So typically have someone try and attack you full force and violently and react and take them out… So that is the way we train and the way he does it… I don’t have any videos of much stuff because he HATES putting up vids because the other so called “JKD” people always steal the material and knock it off as their own… I know his students personally and done some fighting with them… never seen videos of the european ones… There is a few floating around somewhere I could try and find to post though… Tommy has been in hundreds of real street fights though thats the thing about it, everything he teaches he has used for real when working as a doorman and bouncer in violent city of Glasgow in the early to mid 2000s…

So to recap I have some videos of students destroying attacks etc… but there is no going back and forth type sparring in this system, sure a couple of exchanges may occur but not the same as a 9 round boxing match etc…

Honestly though the best way to know more and to do what I train the best justice is to go train with Tommy yourself… I would never be able to fully portray and show everything its more based off personal expirence that is very hard to describe or replicate… Though I do have videos.

49

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Pigeonkak wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Also thought this video was relevant to this discussion:

IMO Bruce would have most certainly taken skills from Muay Thai (stuff from the clinch especially), in fact according to Lewis Bruce had already realized that kicking with the top of the foot (like they do in systems like TKD) was inferior to kicking with the shin bone like the Thais do.

He absolutely would have incorporated stuff from BJJ (though, being a RMA guy himself, probably would have realized that a lot of sport BJJ is impractical for the real world) and more from wrestling (especially take down defense stuff).

And honestly I think that he probably would have gotten into tactical firearms training, Ninpo stealth and mindset training (you could already see in several of his movies that he was into this type of stuff, with the boom of Ninjutsu in the 80’s you can bet he would have sought out and trained with the likes of Bussey, Rosenbach, and Hayes), and cerebral self defense tactics had he had the chance to. [/quote]

Interestingly, at a very high level of conditioning and experience, you will see Nak Muay throw very effective kicks with the top of their foot. But at a lower level, with less experience and probably less hardened body, a lesser fighter could break their foot. I for one hurt myself everytime I throw a kick that connects with the top of the foot.

But I really like your point about the tactical firearms training. I consider military servicemen and women to be ‘martial artists’ in a sense. Think attack chopper pilots, infantrymen, snipers etc. All of them are trained in very direct methods of fighting that require physical and mental training. That is assuming you consider hellfire missiles ‘direct’.

EDIT: That was a good video, Sento, Ta mate.
[/quote]

Yeah, with enough accuracy, timing, and conditioning you can throw effective strikes with the top of the foot (or even the toe, especially if you’re wearing hard/steel toed shoes/boots). But even then there is definitely a greater risk of injuring your foot should you accidentally hit something hard. I just though it was interesting how Lewis had said that about Lee, proving that he was constantly looking for better ways to do things and had come to the same conclusion as the Thais who have been kicking each other full contact for a loooong time.

I totally agree about military personnel being martial artists; in fact many of the martial arts that we know of today were originally utilized by soldiers on the battlefield (Jujutsu, Kenjutsu, TKD, Krav Maga, even Muay Boran which later became Muay Thai was utilized on the fields of battle).

Edited: Thanks. OSS[/quote]

The video portrays one of the examples of Jeet Kune Do that is usually mentioned… Alot of people do not train enough or have the capacity to pull of alot of the different techniques because of lack in athletic abilities or training… We have alot of people that simply don’t put in the hours of training so when it comes to learning the advanced stuff they may know the movements patterns etc… but can never pull it off for real… This leads to issues and the person is never brought to that next level of development and is left learning what is basically non classical gung fu or modified wing chung… which is fine and great and works to a degree but against someone with that higher level they would not fair well… So for instance the trapping when at a higher level is mostly if not all together used as least as possible where with non classical gung fu you have the trapping of limps and then striking but it ties the arms up and is not as quick or explosive… As far as Muay Thai and from what I learned from my instructer from his time with Bruces students, and I am actually training with a first generation instructer Leo Fong tomorrow in canoga park in Los Angelas… He said that bruce always respected the thai fighters and their abilities but the movement and style of kick etc… too much telegraph in the movements etc… The thing you guys have to take into account again is Jeet Kune Do is completely different then competition based martial arts in Jeet Kune Do if your in a clinch, you gouge eyes, pull hair, bite, headbutt, groin stike etc… It is alot more vicious and obviously dirty fighting… The same applies in wrestling if your on the ground you do whatever the hell you can to get up as quickly as possible… We still learn different chokes and defenses and alot of take down defenses but obviously sometimes you still get knocked to the ground regardless of expirence and thats where it comes in… The idea however again get up as quickly as possible because if your on the ground and theres multiple people then your gonna be in serious trouble quick…

50

[quote]cstratton2 wrote:

[quote]Dave 966 wrote:
Sorry to hijack the thread but I don’t know how to pm people.

CSTRATTON2 - you sound experienced in JKD. I live in N Wales and am considering training with one of the JKD schools in Wrexham (there are 3). Have you had anything to do or know anything about any of them? Can you recommend a school in my area?

Thanks [/quote]

Yeah I know at least a couple in that area… I will let you know but better to just add me on facebook or something if you have it and then I could contact you there for legit people, one quick google search already resulted in some serious BS martial arts…

https://www.facebook…todd.stratton.7
[/quote]

Sorry, but I’m not on anything like facebook.

I’d be interested in your view, but I’d understand if you didn’t want to say anything negative about an individual school/club.

Thanks
Dave

51

[quote]Dave 966 wrote:

[quote]cstratton2 wrote:

[quote]Dave 966 wrote:
Sorry to hijack the thread but I don’t know how to pm people.

CSTRATTON2 - you sound experienced in JKD. I live in N Wales and am considering training with one of the JKD schools in Wrexham (there are 3). Have you had anything to do or know anything about any of them? Can you recommend a school in my area?

Thanks [/quote]

Yeah I know at least a couple in that area… I will let you know but better to just add me on facebook or something if you have it and then I could contact you there for legit people, one quick google search already resulted in some serious BS martial arts…

https://www.facebook…todd.stratton.7
[/quote]

Sorry, but I’m not on anything like facebook.

I’d be interested in your view, but I’d understand if you didn’t want to say anything negative about an individual school/club.

Thanks
Dave[/quote]

Then click on my username, go to my hub and PM me from there… I’ll email you any info of people I have closest to your area

52

Like others have mentioned Bruce Lee died too soon for the art to actually develop itself, I think that’s unfortunate.

However, when you look at MMA today I believe thats what JKD was suppose to be, absorb what is useful reject what is not as he said.

The JKD I see today, personally im not impressed.

53

Bro have you even read half the stuff I wrote or videos I posted?

54

To the OP. If you want to learn how to fight then take boxing or Muay Thai. A striking art is going to be fine in most situations for self defense barring weapons. Just make sure you’re sparring regularly. You won’t learn to fight if you’re not sparring. And you should try amateur out if you want to test yourself and see how you’ll do under pressure in a fight scenario. Also try to put in more than 2 hours a week. At least try to do 3.

With boxing or Muay Thai, no worrying about whether the martial art is legitimate or the instructor is legitimate. Just make sure the school puts out fighters and go from there. You can also ask about their fight records to see if they’re a good school. You can also ask other students how this instructor/school compares to others, but this is probably easier with boxing.

I know you say weightlifting is your priority, but it’s going to be difficult learning how to fight and making progress weightlifting. Mainly because you’ll be slower than the other guys and you’ll get tired much quicker. Guys bigger than you will probably be quite a bit faster. It’s just a different game. I’d rather sacrifice being a big, muscled guy in favor of knowing how to fight. Powerlifting or bodybuilding just pales in comparison.

55

Ok, you guys don’t spar in the classical sense, but I’m having a hard time seeing how posting a video of two people going all out trying to finish each other as quickly as possible is going to give away any kinds of secrets. Unless maybe the attacks are prearranged as are the defenses, in which case again that doesn’t necessarily demonstrate combative skill, only a high proficiency of performing a preset routine (which I’m not saying is useless, just not the same thing).

56

No absolute no routine people attack as viciously as possible and at random just like the street, the idea is to simulate realism as much as possible… He’s not afraid of giving away secrets again it’s all very simple and common sense stuff… It is more so that other “instructors” always steal the ideas and things he comes up with and knocks it off as their own with absolute no credit, that’s why there isn’t many videos however he posts plenty of stuff on his Facebook from classes and seminars and we are all on there. If you have it as add him you can see I just don’t know how to convert some of those videos to post here… There is no secret master jutsu BS technique in what we learn it is all extremely simple and straight to the point, however some movements like the front lead, feet movement, positioning, striking distance timing and all that… It takes a very high degree of athleticism and repetition to pull it all off for real in street situation… We never practice any routines of any sort, we defend against strikes thrown violently and randomly… Though obviously its a bit different for beginners usually the speed is just reduced because you know how dumb untrained people can be; mix in an ego and you got an accident waiting to happen…

57

By the way - just in case it hasn’t been said here - Bruce Lee was an actor first. I know the legends and all that crazy jive bullshit, but in reality there are no videos of him actually fighting and we really don’t know for sure whether he was a good fighter or just a great actor.

I would skip on JKD because all you get is videos like that other dude posted - i.e. guys who can’t ACTUALLY fight that just seem like they can because they’re demo’ing it to some awe struck kids.

I don’t remember what the original question was, but my answer for everything these days is either “5/3/1” or “learn to box.”

58

I understand and respect what your saying but like I said the stuff I learn and practice is really hard to show unless I get some better videos, don’t knock off the real JKD until you train with us yourself though, yeah plenty of BS instructers out there but you can’t say that the JKD we practice is no good until you do it for yourself and see…

Just as serious of training as your boxing… Doing thousands of reps a day and hitting it hard all the time with no BS… I didn’t only post demos either I have links to my buddy hitting the heavy bag and double end bag… Will post some videos of us training later in week if people want.

59

[quote]cstratton2 wrote:
I understand and respect what your saying but like I said the stuff I learn and practice is really hard to show unless I get some better videos, don’t knock off the real JKD until you train with us yourself though, yeah plenty of BS instructers out there but you can’t say that the JKD we practice is no good until you do it for yourself and see…

Just as serious of training as your boxing… Doing thousands of reps a day and hitting it hard all the time with no BS… I didn’t only post demos either I have links to my buddy hitting the heavy bag and double end bag… Will post some videos of us training later in week if people want. [/quote]

The facebook post is unavailable, and I have seen NO posts of videos from your friend training. All I’ve seen is the same old “seminars” where guys are wowing people who don’t know what they’re looking at.

Post the heavy bag video then. My opinion of that art is relatively unchanged though. I don’t have a ton of respect for Bruce Lee and his “system” is not one that I would trust anyone to teach.

Your “real JKD” is someone else’s “garbage,” and you guys won’t fight to find out who’s works. And in my time in bars and the world of scumbags, I’ve never seen anyone use it. So therefore, I don’t care about any of it.

But post your videos. Maybe I’m wrong. But I doubt it.

60

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
By the way - just in case it hasn’t been said here - Bruce Lee was an actor first. I know the legends and all that crazy jive bullshit, but in reality there are no videos of him actually fighting and we really don’t know for sure whether he was a good fighter or just a great actor.
[/quote]

Sorry but that first statement is just not true. He was a martial artist first, a martial arts trainer second, a philosopher third, and an actor fourth. He dedicated much of his short life to his martial art (we have first hand accounts from numerous credible sources who have said that he was constantly training, innovating, and was in “fighting shape” on a perpetual basis), which was constantly evolving. He also spent quite a lot of documented time training many of the top karate fighters of the time as well as other martial artists and later on actors and celebrities. He also earned his bachelors degree in philosophy from the University of Washington and wrote and read quite a bit on the subject. He only later went into film because he felt that it was the most effective way of exposing the general public to real martial arts skill.

You have to realize that at the time the martial arts film industry showcased only fantastical portrayals of martial arts. Think The Matrix type stuff but passing it off as being a realistic portrayal. The western film industry on the other hand had pretty much no portrayals (other than maybe a little boxing here or there). Lee was the first actor to showcase real martial arts skills that weren’t based totally in wire stunts or mystical powers. The wrote the book and everyone else followed his lead.

Finally, while it’s true that Lee didn’t fight professionally and as a result it would be dishonest to say that we know how he would have faired in the ring, there is actually is video footage of him fighting in Hong Kong, there are multiple photographic documents of him sparring full contact with some of his students, there is video footage of him sparring at Ed Parker’s Long Beach Karate Invitational, and documented evidence that Bruce was the 1958 Hong Kong Inter-School Amateur Boxing Champion.

Again, I’m not saying he was the greatest fighter ever, or that he would have been a world champion had he competed, but it’s just plain false to say that he was an actor first and a martial artist second.

In many cases I’d agree with you. Not all, but many.