Is Iran The Enemy?

[hedo]

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:

Irrelevant. The “Muslim barbarians” (and condemning Zionists is racist?) are at their weakest point militarily since they came into being, there is no chance of Israel being defeated in a conventional invasion by Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, etc. Martin Van Creveld, a brilliant Israeli military historian, wrote a good book on the subject a year or two back.

Nope, not irrelevant - Israel is very powerful, Middle Eastern nations are not. That is a good thing, since the Middle Eastern nations have an ax to grind. Such an imbalance reduces the chances that Middle Eastern nations will have a conventional confrontation.

And that is a good thing.

I’m not worried what Van Creveld wrote, because I am not arguing that Middle Eastern nations can defeat Israel. My point is that the inability to defeat Israel is key to keeping things out of a traditional hot war, and if the military capabilities were ever “proportionalized” via Israel’s enemies obtaining nukes or Israel dispossessing itself of nukes, the deterrent effect is gone - and the chances of a bloody hot war go up.

I like the imbalance - and so should anyone else interested in peace in the Middle East.

Israel had nukes in 1973 I believe, when it was nearly defeated (and possibly extinguished) in conventional war.

And again, they have nothing to fear in terms of conventional attack. They should be a lot more worried about terrorism and about its effect on their society (i.e. not fanciful “suitcase nuke” scenarios, but the fact that they’re suffering from net emigration).[/quote]

A suitcase nuke used against Israel would be a very bad thing for the Arab world. Very bad indeed. If Israel couldn’t identify the attacking nation very quickly then they would most likely retaliate against the worst of them such as Iran and Syria and maybe others. It was commonly refered to as the “David Option” whereby Israel would use nuclear weapons against 15 Arab cities in the first wave regardless of what country initiated the attack. It was a potent deterrent.

It’s estimated in some circles that Israel has 300 nukes and the abilty to deliver them via the Jericho missle or via aircraft and sub launched crusise missles.

At this point it appears that only Iran is foolish enought to try something this stupid in Israel but only time will tell. Would they try s futile gesture like this against the US. Who knows? Against a weak administration led by an inexperienced leader with pacifist tendencies…the odds increase. Right now not a chance.

[lixy]

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
If Israel almost got beat while having nukes in 1973, certainly that suggests there is all the more reason to do anything to enhance their military advantage going forward, nukes and all. [/quote]

In 1973, the three most powerful Arab states militarily couldn’t keep up for more than 24 to 48 hours. That is not anywhere near “almost beat”.

Actually, Israel does have something to fear from conventional attack - largely because no matter how much we argue Middle Eastern nations can’t beat Israel, this presupposes Middle Eastern nations are always rational actors in pursuance of their objectives. They aren’t.

Of course not. They’re “barbarians”!

Arab humiliation runs deep and counter to “rational” action in geopolitics.

Wait a second here…isn’t this thread about Iran? How are they “Arab”?

While it is unlikely Middle Eastern nations wouldn’t attack, it’s unwise to assume they never would - that is just dumb planning. Nor should Israel take for granted its military advantages - it should maintain them jealously and not relax.

There is no way in hell any country is going to attack Israel. That would be MAD!

That said, nuclear technology is not black magic, and in 2008 anyone can aspire to build nukes in a couple of decades.

[Sikkario]

Iran, the second fastest growing producer of scientific research in the world, doesn’t even have nuclear weapons.

I don’t know where this fabled suitcase nuke would come from.

I think this whole thing is pure sci-fi honestly.

Swap suitcase nuke for, a weaponized, chemical supervirus in a pen. That need only be dropped in the water supply of the nation.

Whatever, super weapon bullshit you want to think of.

Get real. You’re talking scifi here, and that can’t serve as a basis for any real foriegn policy.

Also, what would nuking Israel or the USA do, it, in the case of Israel, it would kill substantial numbers of Muslims too. Thus it is doubtful such an attack would or could be carried out.

[Sikkario]

That said, nuclear technology is not black magic, and in 2008 anyone can aspire to build nukes in a couple of decades.

One of my friends is a bio-chemistry major, me and him used to make bombs and stuff as kids for fun. Not for harm, we’d just blow them up out in the woods, shit from the anarchist cookbook.

Anyways, hes really into that stuff.

He explained to me (not like he is the guru of everything), that in modern times, the science behind nuclear weaponry, is pretty much common knowledge.

The only difficult part, is the obtainment and development of the appropriate components. These things are heavily restricted and much of it takes a great deal of time.

A developed nuclear infrastructure is needed before weaponry, can be produced.

http://www.boredshitless.com/nuclear_bomb.html

[S7ALK3R]

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
lixy wrote:

Exactly. Zionists are the nicest people and the region that is now known as Israel was an uninhabited piece of land. The current animosity is solely the fault of the “barbarians” and their inherent anti-Semitism. Thank God that Israel is containing the hordes of terrorists. Otherwise, them Muslims will be coming at us with machetes.

Ha, other than what is written in the Bible, the Jews have no history of invading anyone. How many countries did the Jews conquer and convert to Judasm?

How many did the Muslims - (to Islam, of course)?[/quote]

Just look at the maps.

You mean that http://www.dartmouth.edu/~gov46/occupied-1949-armistic.gif
Thats the map of 1930 Map of The Middle East (1930)

Its a question of politic, not a FAIR.
Self-determination? Hmm…

Just look in the other regions.
Kosovo and Serbia - yes, Turkey and kurds - No and etc.
Double standart.

btw why turkey army invades Iraq in search of kurds rebels/terrorists today? Cause they can.

Its seems like, when country X is a friend of US…it can hunt peoples(even in other countries) who want selfdetermination right, but when country Y isnt in the bed with US…its forbidden.

Good guys, bad gyus, borders. Really?

[PRCalDude]

[quote]rainjack wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
I perceive Iran to be have a regime run by leaders with a Jew paranoia akin to one A. Hitler and plans on an imperialist Persian adventure toward the goal of eliminating the Jewish people in Israel with nuclear weapons. You can go to MEMRI tv and look at videos translated from Iranian television. That will tell you all you need to know.

The Iranian people themselves are probably fine. I’ve met several, and they are generally very fine people and disinterested in Islam.

I find it odd that there is such a disconnect between the individual, and the governance of said people. [/quote]

To be sure, there is never a complete disconnect. The Iranians are finding out what living under the Arabist construct known as “Shari’ah law” feels like, and are realizing it isn’t what it’s cracked up to be. It takes time to change the opinions of an entire nation, and the Islamic revolution is about 30 years old now. Since the Iranians aren’t having any children, the regime must act within the next 5-10 years in order to make use of its current “youth bulge” - hence the rhetoric coming out of the Ayatollahs. There are liberal Ayatollahs who believe that the Qur’an needs to be re-interpreted to get rid of the violence and Jew hatred, but they are a minority. The gospel is succeeding where these liberal ayatollahs are failing.

Does anyone here read the guy who writes the “Spengler” column for the Asia times? He’s where I got most of my above statement and is well worth a read on this topic.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/others/spengler.html

[S7ALK3R]

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Sikkario wrote:
I agree that we see Iran differently. I don’t think you could call the knuckle head in power right now a stable person. I don’t think the country is stable. You don’t give a 2 year old kid a razor blade. I think the same common sense should apply to rogue states.
Ahlmenijad, hasn’t killed anyone. …

What about the homosexuals they hang from construction equipment?

What about the terrorists he trains and arms in Iraq?

You are just plain wrong on so many counts. Your paper will be hard to write if you use reality instead of Iranian propaganda.[/quote]

I suppose that he never even watched Iranian news.
But you are so prejudiced…i think that may be you are the man who is too dependent to someone’s propaganda.

About your marines and lebanons:
How about …some troops landing in your city and ‘peacekeeping’ with their friends who are stealing your house?
About executing for drugs and homosexual - dont you think, that one society have the RIGHT to decide what their laws will be?
Thats not a reason to attack them.

[austin_bicep]

[quote]lixy wrote:
will to power wrote:
Having nuclear weapons won’t mean Israel is getting nuked, mutually assured destruction and all that. It will mean a stop to the threat of Israel nuking other Middle Eastern nations, and how is that a bad thing exactly?

That is the key point. If Iran gets nukes (which they claim they are not after) it would mean that they could continue with their successful defiance unchallenged. That would be a blow in the balance of power between the countries, and might force Americans to sit down and talk with the Iranians (we can’t have that, can we?).

If you study some of the declassified White House and CIA documents, you can find a recurring theme in the dangers of inspiration. That is precisely the reason the US is extremely antagonistic to Venezuela and might even have been behind the 2002 coup against Chavez. The guy and his movement are inspiring people all over Latin America and the world to break free of the neo-colonial chains, reclaim their own land and stand up to the bullies.[/quote]

Are you serious, Chavez is fucking socialist nut job.

[thunderbolt23]

[quote]lixy wrote:

In 1973, the three most powerful Arab states militarily couldn’t keep up for more than 24 to 48 hours. That is not anywhere near “almost beat”. [/quote]

You do a horrible job of following arguments. My point was even if GDollars is right w/r/t 1973, that actually supports my argument that Israel should keep the arms gap as wide as possible.

If you are going to chime in on my posts, get the argument right and stop wasting my time.

Of course not. They’re “barbarians”!

Correct. Most cultures stuck in the 7th century would be.

Wait a second here…isn’t this thread about Iran? How are they “Arab”?

Once again, follow the argument - me and GDollars are discussing historical animosity and attacks against Israel since 1948, which have been largely Arab nations.

We deviated from the discussion on Iran when we started talking history of animosity of Israel - smack yourself for being so dumb.

There is no way in hell any country is going to attack Israel. That would be MAD!

Assuming all the nations act rationally, you might be right - but we know the hatred for Israel is powerfully irrational, and that leads to powerfully irrational action that Israel must remain cautious of.

You need look no further than your irrational hatred of Israel for proof of the mania that drives these angry nations that want the “apes and pigs” out of the holy land.

That said, nuclear technology is not black magic, and in 2008 anyone can aspire to build nukes in a couple of decades.

And you make my argument for me - the landscape of military firepower can change in a flash…all the more reason to make sure the firepower gap between Israel and the barbarians remains ever widening.

After all, by your own admission, “anyone” can score nukes in a short time frame. Israel - nor the rest of the world - can sleep on it.

Thanks for saving me the work.

[Sloth]

You can oppose military action and still believe Iran is seeking a nuclear weapon. And, you can agree their “Democracy” is in the loosest intepretation of the word. Or, that the regime is horribly oppresive and brutal to various minorties. You can recognize these problems and believe it’s not up to the US to solve them.

But, when one argues that Iran is a true blue democracy, one loses credibility right from the start. Or, when one claims “Hey, Iran’s laws aren’t all that bad,” one loses credibility. Or, when one states, “Oh, come on. They’re only after a civil nuclear energy program,” one loses credibility. It just comes off as defensive of the Iranian regime, when there’s nothing defensible about it.

[lixy]

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
Are you serious, Chavez is fucking socialist nut job.[/quote]

Can’t argue with that. Fact is, it doesn’t seem to bother the majority of Venezuelans who would rather have to live with Chavez than some sockpuppet of Washington.

And yes, I am serious when I say that he’s inspiring people. He stood up to the world’s largest corporations and he says to Bush’s face what most everybody else is thinking. Remember the thunder of applause during his speech in NY a while back? His speech is inflammatory and he uses low-life techniques, but he remains an eloquent and charismatic leader.

[austin_bicep]

[quote]Sikkario wrote:
Esfahan is one of the most beautiful cities in the world.[/quote]

why don’t you move there and spare the U.S. from your idiocy.

[lixy]

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
…
[/quote]

To recapitulate, You are saying that Arabs and Muslims in general are “barbarians” who have an “irrational hatred” of Israel. Did I get that right?

[Sikkario]

I’m writing this paper, and I’m going to submit it to a few venues, but I’d like to use it as a ground work for seting up friendship between Iran and the USA. Starting a student organization. I’d be more than happy to study in Iran, it is one of the most beautiful countries in the world, if I had the privilege I’d do so.

Emigrate there? If I liked it and I had a job, why not?

The characterization you all have of Iran is appalling.

You claim they kill homosexuals and drug users? I refute your assertions. Over and over again, you spread lies about Iran, best on some 90s jingoist line of America is the only habitable place on the globe.

Iran is one of the most progressive countries of the world.

They don’t have weapons for aggression, and have only endeavored to maintain their sovereignity through their entire recent history, and by that I mean the past 200 years.

Despite Western aggression, they’ve acted extremely tolerant.

Despite Western embargoes and blockades, they’ve prospered economically.

They are a cradle of learning and of civilization.

Truly an admirable nation. I’d be more than happy to come to know it.

[lixy]

[quote]Sloth wrote:
You can oppose military action and still believe Iran is seeking a nuclear weapon. And, you can agree their “Democracy” is in the loosest intepretation of the word. Or, that the regime is horribly oppresive and brutal to various minorties. You can recognize these problems and believe it’s not up to the US to solve them.

But, when one argues that Iran is a true blue democracy, one loses credibility right from the start. Or, when one claims “Hey, Iran’s laws aren’t all that bad,” one loses credibility. Or, when one states, “Oh, come on. They’re only after a civil nuclear energy program,” one loses credibility. It just comes off as defensive of the Iranian regime, when there’s nothing defensible about it.[/quote]

Tell you what, Iran is a hell of a lot more democratic than my country, and in fact, most of the Arab countries. And before Morales, Bolivia might not have been that much better either.

It’s all relative. What is certain though, is that Iranians are moving towards a more open and free society…provided you don’t free the shit out of them.

[Sikkario]

Iran has been a democracy, since the USA destroyed their democracy by FREEING THE FUCK OUT OF THEM, through their CIA Operation Ajax against Mossadeq. They suffered under the United States imposed fascist regime and then restore democracy during the Islamic Revolution.

I don’t understand this notion that Iran is undemocratic and unhumanitarian.

They have only suffered at the hands of US barbarism.

They have experienced United States Chemical Weapons first hand.

The WarHawks in this thread, have a selective morality, and historical alzheimers.

They claim to represent freedom, democracy, peace and humanitarianism, yet oppose every vestige of it.

[PRCalDude]

This has probably already been mentioned, but a quick look at a map of the Middle East doesn’t leave you with a lot of other conclusions regarding the Palestinian/Jew conflict except that Islamic Jew hatred is the root cause.

Israel is a tiny country the size of Rhode Island. Jordan is already 85% Palestinian (meaning Arabs left over from the jihad in the 7th century).

I’ve often wondered (rhetorically) if all of the Arabs are intellectually dishonest enough to ponder the ethnic cleansing they’ve wrought on that part of the world. The original “Palestinians” were Phoenicians to the north of Israel, Aegean sea peoples living in the areas of Gaza, Arameans, Jebusites, etc living to the East, and Syrians and Hittites living to the North. Egypt was populated by Egyptians, now known as Copts.

Now, all of these areas are assumed to be Arab by the Arabs. Why? Because they waged a jihad over a millineum ago? Why is their ethnic claim the only one that is valid?

[PRCalDude]

[quote]Sikkario wrote:
Iran has been a democracy, since the USA destroyed their democracy by FREEING THE FUCK OUT OF THEM, through their CIA Operation Ajax against Mossadeq. They suffered under the United States imposed fascist regime and then restore democracy during the Islamic Revolution.

I don’t understand this notion that Iran is undemocratic and unhumanitarian.

They have only suffered at the hands of US barbarism.

They have experienced United States Chemical Weapons first hand.

The WarHawks in this thread, have a selective morality, and historical alzheimers.

They claim to represent freedom, democracy, peace and humanitarianism, yet oppose every vestige of it.[/quote]

I think you should definitely move over their and experience it firsthand. Why let authors like Robert D. Kaplan deprive you of such an experience? Vaya con Dios!

[austin_bicep]

[quote]Sikkario wrote:

You claim they kill homosexuals and drug users? I refute your assertions. Over and over again, you spread lies about Iran, best on some 90s jingoist line of America is the only habitable place on the globe.

[/quote]

hmm, that’s why Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said there were no homosexuals in Iran (Columbia University), i wonder why. It’s either because they were killed or are in fear of being killed. No nation is homo free, sorry.

[austin_bicep]

[quote]Sikkario wrote:
Iran has been a democracy, since the USA destroyed their democracy by FREEING THE FUCK OUT OF THEM, through their CIA Operation Ajax against Mossadeq. They suffered under the United States imposed fascist regime and then restore democracy during the Islamic Revolution.

I don’t understand this notion that Iran is undemocratic and unhumanitarian.

They have only suffered at the hands of US barbarism.

They have experienced United States Chemical Weapons first hand.

The WarHawks in this thread, have a selective morality, and historical alzheimers.

They claim to represent freedom, democracy, peace and humanitarianism, yet oppose every vestige of it.[/quote]

again, move to iran, the U.S. will have one less idiot, and anyother country for that matter.