Forlife i posted this just for your benefit:
And this one to
[quote]forlife wrote:
I don’t think there are many “heterosexual” men who have sex with other men. Why would they? Unless you’re talking about teens experimenting to find out what their sexuality is[/quote]
You can’t even remember your own talking points forlife. It’s YOU who said that one is either born homosexual or heterosexual.
Honestly, I think you were sharper 3 years ago when we did this, at least you were consistent.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
It’s YOU who said that one is either born homosexual or heterosexual.[/quote]
I was talking about sexual orientation, which as you know very well, does not always equate with sexual behavior.
It’s not rocket science.
People will act consistently with their sexual orientation, unless religious or cultural pressures scare them into hiding who they are.
Obviously, in the absence of religious or cultural pressures to the contrary, most heterosexuals would act consistently with their natural orientation. Most homosexuals would as well.
[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
It’s YOU who said that one is either born homosexual or heterosexual.
I was talking about sexual orientation, which as you know very well, does not always equate with sexual behavior. [/quote]
Ah yes the great orientation hoax, I forgot that you are pushing that now. That’s how you rationalize 87% of homosexual men enjoying sex with females while at the same time claiming to be gay.
Let’s just keep in mind that’s not what you used to say. You used to say that a homosexual is born that way and that nothing can change them (even though many have changed through therapy and there is proof of this). You used to say that a homosexual man was either attracted to another man at an early age or he wasn’t. Now you’re saying that they experiment to find out if they are homosexual.
What a hodge podge of pop psychology, politically correct nonsense and basic new age bull crap.
I love it.
Okay, fellas, let’s use a little logic.
Homosexuality is likely to have a hereditary component. Twin study: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_n8_v142/ai_12514844/
“Nothing can change it” is a little strong. We do know that many women change their sexual orientation – it’s rarer for men. It’s certainly possible for people to have sex with the gender they’re not attracted to. Youthful mistakes – “Maybe I’ll give girls one try… nope, that was awful.” Or sham marriages. It’s a horrible thing to pressure anyone into doing, however. The Catholic Church – hardly a sexually liberal organization – has the official standpoint that there is a class of people who are constituitively homosexual, by nature attracted to people of the same gender, and that the only right behavior for them is celibacy. Even they believe in “orientation.” Without intending offense to anyone’s faith, I think there’s something wrong with claiming that because of the way some people are born and naturally constituted, they should be denied ever experiencing a major part of human fulfillment.
ZEB, be an adult. Gay people aren’t going to get less gay because you don’t like them. And opposing bigotry isn’t “New Age bull crap.”
[quote]AlisaV wrote:
ZEB, be an adult. Gay people aren’t going to get less gay because you don’t like them. And opposing bigotry isn’t “New Age bull crap.”
[/quote]
First of all I never said that “I didn’t like them” and how do you associate any of my comments with “bigotry”? Do you even know the meaning of that word? But then again I shouldn’t be surprised, you are following the politically correct homosexual line which states “if anyone opposes gay marriage or doesn’t follow in lock step with the gay agenda then accuse them of hate mongering”. Thinking for yourself isn’t easy in an age of political correctness is it? Perhaps in your next post you can actually think outside the “gay box” that society has placed you in.
Try again.
OK, sorry, fell into the “someone is wrong on the internet” trap. I don’t know why I get sucked into these things.
Zeb, you’re welcome to your opinions. It’s a free country.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Ah yes the great orientation hoax, I forgot that you are pushing that now.[/quote]
Lol, you must enjoy living in this tiny bubble of your own making, since the vast majority of people (including every major medical and mental health organization) recognize that sexual orientation exists.
If there is no such thing as sexual orientation, what differentiates gay men from straight men?
Wrong. I’ve always said that there is solid evidence for a biological and in utero inflluence on the development of sexual orientation, while acknowledging that social influences can also play a role.
You, on the other hand, have religiously insisted that there is no evidence whatsoever for a biological/in utero influence, and only promote the social component as if that is the sole determinant of sexual orientation.
Who is being honest and fair here?
[quote]AlisaV wrote:
It’s certainly possible for people to have sex with the gender they’re not attracted to. Youthful mistakes – “Maybe I’ll give girls one try… nope, that was awful.” Or sham marriages. It’s a horrible thing to pressure anyone into doing, however.[/quote]
It’s so obvious, but Zeb is 100% convinced that people cannot act contrary to their natural orientation, and refuses to recognize the influence of religious beliefs and social pressures on sexual expression.
Most religions now recognize that a homosexual orientation exists, including my own former church (LDS). Similar to the Catholic church, they tell gay members to remain celibate for the rest of their lives. They have learned that compelling gays into marriage with the opposite sex only results in heartbreak.
[quote]AlisaV wrote:
OK, sorry, fell into the “someone is wrong on the internet” trap. I don’t know why I get sucked into these things.
Zeb, you’re welcome to your opinions. It’s a free country. [/quote]
I don’t think it’s as much a “trap” as it is a misstatement on your part. If someone disagrees with a certain policy does that mean that they hate the people promoting that policy?
One can disagree with a subject without hating anyone.
It’s actually ironic that you accused me of such hate since that very accusation, regarding this topic, is in fact motivated by political correctness.
[quote]forlife wrote:
AlisaV wrote:
It’s certainly possible for people to have sex with the gender they’re not attracted to. Youthful mistakes – “Maybe I’ll give girls one try… nope, that was awful.” Or sham marriages. It’s a horrible thing to pressure anyone into doing, however.
It’s so obvious, but Zeb is 100% convinced that people cannot act contrary to their natural orientation[/quote]
Tell me forlife how many homosexual men have had and currently do have sex with women? I know we’ve already gone over this but either through lack of reading skills (which I doubt) or just plain stubbornness (there you go) you’re not getting it.
The figure is well over 80% by their own admission!
Now, how many typical heterosexual men have had or do have sex with other men?
I don’t know for sure and neither do you but we both know that it’s not even a fraction of 1%. We can make this assumption because those who have sex with both genders are called “bisexual” not heterosexual.
Basic forlife, very basic.
Furthermore I know you have a strong dislike for God, the Church the Pope the neighborhood Pastor and everything connected to religion, but this issue has nothing to do with those things. If it did then we would not have young males out in bars trying to pick-up anything female. Doesn’t the Church frown o that behavior? But, the guys hormones tell them something else and they listen to those hormones over the church, their parents advice and anyone else who chimes in. Finally, the overwhelming majority of straight males are not only NOT turned on by other males but are in fact sickened by the thought of two males having anal sex and they can’t help that much either.
Your arguments continue to disappoint.
[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Ah yes the great orientation hoax, I forgot that you are pushing that now.
Lol, you must enjoy living in this tiny bubble of your own making, since the vast majority of people (including every major medical and mental health organization) recognize that sexual orientation exists. [/quote]
I always chuckle when you do your “every major medical and mental health organization” rant.
Why?
For the simple reason that they all followed the APA. And you and I both know that homosexuality was removed as a mental disease NOT based on science but based on politics.
Here’s a little refresher for you since you’ve forgotten:
"In 1973, the American Psychiatric Association (APA) removed homosexuality as a mental disorder from the APA’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual Of Mental Disorders (DSM-II).
This decision was a significant victory for homosexual activists, and they have continued to claim that the APA based their decision on new scientific discoveries that proved that homosexual behavior is normal and should be affirmed in our culture.
This is false and part of numerous homosexual urban legends that have infiltrated every aspect of our culture. The removal of homosexuality as a mental disorder has given homosexual activists credibility in the culture, and they have demanded that their sexual behavior be affirmed in society.
What Really Happened?
Numerous psychiatrists over the past decades have described what forces were really at work both inside and outside of the American Psychiatric Association-and what led to the removal of homosexuality as a mental disorder.
Dr. Ronald Bayer explains how homosexual activists captured the APA for political gain.
Dr. Ronald Bayer, a pro-homosexual psychiatrist has described what actually occurred in his book, Homosexuality and American Psychiatry: The Politics of Diagnosis. (1981)
In Chapter 4, “Diagnostic Politics: Homosexuality and the American Psychiatric Association,” Dr. Bayer says that the first attack by homosexual activists against the APA began in 1970 when this organization held its convention in San Francisco. Homosexual activists decided to disrupt the conference by interrupting speakers and shouting down and ridiculing psychiatrists who viewed homosexuality as a mental disorder."
(These tactics sound familiar)
In 1971, homosexual activist Frank Kameny worked with the Gay Liberation Front collective to demonstrate against the APA’s convention. At the 1971 conference, Kameny grabbed the microphone and yelled, “Psychiatry is the enemy incarnate. Psychiatry has waged a relentless war of extermination against us. You may take this as a declaration of war against you.”
Homosexuals forged APA credentials and gained access to exhibit areas in the conference. They threatened anyone who claimed that homosexuals needed to be cured.
Kameny had found an ally inside of the APA named Kent Robinson who helped the homosexual activist present his demand that homosexuality be removed from the DSM. At the 1972 convention, homosexual activists were permitted to set up a display booth, entitled “Gay, Proud and Healthy.”
Kameny was then permitted to be part of a panel of psychiatrists who were to discuss homosexuality. The effort to remove homosexuality as a mental disorder from the DSM was the result of power politics, threats, and intimidation, not scientific discoveries.
Prior to the APA’s 1973 convention, several psychiatrists attempted to organize opposition to the efforts of homosexuals to remove homosexual behavior from the DSM. Organizing this effort were Drs. Irving Bieber and Charles Socarides who formed the Ad Hoc Committee Against the Deletion of Homosexuality from DSM-II.
The DSM-II listed homosexuality as an abnormal behavior under section “302. Sexual Deviations.” It was the first deviation listed.
After much political pressure, a committee of the APA met behind closed doors in 1973 and voted to remove homosexuality as a mental disorder from the DSM-II. Opponents of this effort were given 15 minutes to protest this change, according to Dr. Jeffrey Satinover, in Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth. Satinover writes that after this vote was taken, the decision was to be voted on by the entire APA membership. The National Gay Task Force purchased the APA’s mailing list and sent out a letter to the APA members urging them to vote to remove homosexuality as a disorder. No APA member was informed that the mailing had been funded by this homosexual activist group."
(Gay politics won this one-Not science)
According to Satinover, “How much the 1973 APA decision was motivated by politics is only becoming clear even now. While attending a conference in England in 1994, I met a man who told me an account that he had told no one else. He had been in the gay life for years but had left the lifestyle. He recounted how after the 1973 APA decision, he and his lover, along with a certain very highly placed officer of the APA Board of Trustees and his lover, all sat around the officer’s apartment celebrating their victory. For among the gay activists placed high in the APA who maneuvered to ensure a victory was this man-suborning from the top what was presented to both the membership and the public as a disinterested search for truth.”
Dr. Socarides Speaks Out
Dr. Satinover shows how APA’s policies were influcenced by closeted homosexual APA leaders.
Dr. Charles Socarides has set the record straight on how homosexuals inside and outside of the APA forced this organization to remove homosexuality as a mental disorder. This was done without any valid scientific evidence to prove that homosexuality is not a disordered behavior.
Dr. Socarides, writing in Sexual Politics and Scientific Logic: The Issue of Homosexuality writes: “To declare a condition a ‘non-condition,’ a group of practitioners had removed it from our list of serious psychosexual disorders. The action was all the more remarkable when one considers that it involved an out-of-hand and peremptory disregard and dismissal not only of hundreds of psychiatric and psychoanalytic research papers and reports, but also a number of other serious studies by groups of psychiatrists, psychologists, and educators over the past seventy years?”
Socarides continued: "For the next 18 years, the APA decision served as a Trojan horse, opening the gates to widespread psychological and social change in sexual customs and mores. The decision was to be used on numerous occasions for numerous purposes with the goal of normalizing homosexuality and elevating it to an esteemed status.
“To some American psychiatrists, this action remains a chilling reminder that if scientific principles are not fought for, they can be lost-a disillusioning warning that unless we make no exceptions to science, we are subject to the snares of political factionalism and the propagation of untruths to an unsuspecting and uninformed public, to the rest of the medical profession, and to the behavioral sciences.”
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Tell me forlife how many homosexual men have had and currently do have sex with women?..
Now, how many typical heterosexual men have had or do have sex with other men?[/quote]
Why do you keep crowing about this, as if it means anything?
Obviously more gay men have sex with women because their religion tells them they are going to hell unless they marry a woman, or because of significant cultural pressures to do so.
Hetero men don’t have their religion telling them they are going to hell unless they marry another man, nor do they experience significant cultural pressures to have sex with other men.
I don’t dislike any of the hundreds of gods people choose to believe in, I just ask for evidence of their existence before pretending that they are real. But you’re right, it has nothing to do with homosexuality, except when people make up stories about their god telling them that being gay will send people to hell.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I always chuckle when you do your “every major medical and mental health organization” rant.
Why?
For the simple reason that they all followed the APA. And you and I both know that homosexuality was removed as a mental disease NOT based on science but based on politics.[/quote]
Where is your proof that every major medical and mental health organization in the world just “followed the APA”, rather than basing their conclusions on 40 years of scientific research?
You don’t like that every one of these organizations, without exception, has drawn conclusions about homosexuality which directly contradict your pet theories. So you insist that every single one of these organizations is so politically biased, that its conclusions on homosexuality are worthless.
American Academy of Pediatrics? Worthless, since they are so politically biased in favor of gays, and don’t really care what is in the best interest of the children they are supposed to protect.
American Medical Association? Worthless, because again they are so politically biased they don’t really understand science or what it has to say about homosexuality.
Surgeon General? Obviously a political appointment, so the conclusions of the Surgeon General should be dismissed out of hand.
American Society of Social Workers? Worthless, again because they are so politically biased they can’t be relied upon to draw responsible conclusions on homosexuality.
And so on, and so on, and so on.
Nice try, but it doesn’t fly.
[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Tell me forlife how many homosexual men have had and currently do have sex with women?..
Now, how many typical heterosexual men have had or do have sex with other men?
Why do you keep crowing about this, as if it means anything?
Obviously more gay men have sex with women because their religion tells them they are going to hell unless they marry a woman, [/quote]
Stop with that nonsense. There is no amount of “religion” that can make a real homosexual male become aroused with a female. You don’t want to admit that over 80% of all men who call themselves homosexuals just might be bisexual.
Just as there is no amount of religion that can prevent a young man from seeking female companionship in all the wrong places. More gay logic sheesh.
Out of all the idiotic things that you foist at me this is by far the most foolish.
[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
I always chuckle when you do your “every major medical and mental health organization” rant.
Why?
For the simple reason that they all followed the APA. And you and I both know that homosexuality was removed as a mental disease NOT based on science but based on politics.
Where is your proof that every major medical and mental health organization in the world just “followed the APA”, rather than basing their conclusions on 40 years of scientific research?[/quote]
Better yet where is your retort that the APA changed its diagnoses based on science and not politics?
I think that’s quite telling.
[quote]clip11 wrote:
In the United States, HIV infection and AIDS have had a tremendous effect on men who have sex with men (MSM). MSM accounted for 71% of all HIV infections among male adults and adolescents in 2005 (based on data from 33 states with long-term, confidential name-based HIV reporting), even though only about 5% to 7% of male adults and adolescents in the United States identify themselves as MSM
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/msm/resources/factsheets/msm.htm[/quote]
Good post.
How can less than 3% of the population be responsible for 71% of all HIV cases?
This is obviously caused by promiscuity. The very reason that only a fraction of the gay population are marrying in countries (and states) where it is now legal.
It all makes sense if you put political correctness aside and look at the facts.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
There is no amount of “religion” that can make a real homosexual male become aroused with a female.[/quote]
How about actually addressing what I said, instead of putting words in my mouth?
I didn’t say religion makes gay men become attracted to women. I said religious beliefs can make gay men act contrary to their natural attraction for men, by having sex with women.
Maybe if I repeat it enough times it will sink in.
It is possible for most people to have sex with someone they don’t normally find attractive.
HOWEVER
They won’t normally have sex with someone contrary to their orientation, unless there are severe religious or cultural pressures to do so.
Obviously, gay men experience severe religious and cultural pressures not to act on their natural orientation.
Straight men don’t.
It’s not rocket science why you see more gay men than straight men acting contrary to their orientation.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Better yet where is your retort that the APA changed its diagnoses based on science and not politics?
I think that’s quite telling.
[/quote]
I don’t need to even contend the point. Even if you are correct that the APA is a politically corrupt, socially irresponsible organization, where is your proof that the same is true for EVERY OTHER MAJOR MEDICAL AND MENTAL HEALTH ORGANIZATION IN THE WORLD?