Iraq the Vote

thuderbolt23,

[quote]The Mage wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
Makkun,

One thing I would disagree about: comparisons between Nazi Germany and our current situation are not so far-fetched.

Saddam’s pan-Arabism read like a Nazi manual on uniting the races and settling old scores.[/quote]

Hitler had no plans to “unite” the races. Separating them was his doctrine.
Most autocratic, non-communist crazy dictators tend to like Hitler (the others like Stalin). But that doesn’t mean they resemble him in the dreadful “success” he had, until he was finally stopped.

[quote]And the appeasement doctrine of the current situation is dangerously analogous to that surrounding the Munich Pact.

Hell, I wouldn’t have been surprised if Kofi Annan declared sometime before March 2003 that we had achieved “Peace in our time”.

Two reasons for this. First history repeats itself because, as I have said before, too many people do not learn

The other reason is that Saddam, and many Muslim Extremists consider Hitler to be a hero, and a man to emulate. They do take from the Nazi playbook.[/quote]

Here again - I just think the comparison is not convincing. I don’t believe in global politics being so mechanical that once a certain scenario is set, everything just happens always the same way.

[quote]…

Not to mention all of the talk of the Holocaust being a myth. Yes we have reason to fear when Nazism is promoted by very powerful people in the Mid-East.[/quote]

I think we always have to fear it when someone tries to impose certain worldviews on others and has the arsenal to support it.

Makkun

To go way back up to a point made at the top, I think typical liberal punditry (with typical Mainstream Media picking up one or more of the memes in their reporting) concerning Iraq followed this formula (shamelessly pilfered from the Redstate blog) prior to the election success:

1. If there’s bad news, report it. Add little snippets on how awful things are. Liberally toss in words like “quagmire”, “ignorance”, “hubris”, “incompetence”, “lies” and the like.
2. If there’s neutral news, cherry-pick the worst parts and write things like “this can’t be good” or “things are going from bad to worse” or “this has been another bad week for Bush”. Ignore positive developments by downplaying or sidestepping them, or trying to discredit them.
3. If there’s good news and no bad news can be plucked, deny that it’s actually good news.
4. Write something like “this looks like good news but it’s really not”. Or, “this can’t be right, these reports can’t be trusted” or “it may sound good but this will surely backfire on us” or “oh, sure, this may be a positive development but look at all these other areas where things are falling apart”.
5. Add no constructive suggestions or solutions.
6. Take the obligatory dig at the Bush administration.
7. Make sure to add an ominous forecast or two. Ignore all past predictions that were proved wrong, don’t admit you were wrong, don’t re-visit past wrong posts to see where they went wrong, soldier on and make more Chicken Little predictions. When confronted with past wrong predictions, ignore them or change the subject, then default back to telling everyone how awful things are going.

After the election, because the success was just too big to ignore or fit into the formula, you’ve tended to get either silence, a la Michael Moore and George Soros, or complaints that the media is dropping the bad news to actually focus on an accomplishment for once.

However, even the acknowledgements seem to be laced with caveats. It’s as if there cannot even be a moment of celebration without someone saying something to the extent of “It’s not fixed yet” – as if that were the point.

The Diplomad Blog had an excellent post on these kinds of acknowledgements, which I’m hoping will provide some fodder for conversation:

http://diplomadic.blogspot.com/2005/02/iraq-part-ii-attack-of-comma-ists.html

Tuesday, February 01, 2005

Iraq, Part II: The Attack of the Comma-ists

It seems that just about everybody recognizes that on January 30, the Iraqi people did an amazing thing. They defied the thugs and the murderers and decided to help shape the destiny of their country by voting in free and fair elections for the first time in their lives. Even the MSM including the (gasp!) New York Times ( Defying Threats, Millions of Iraqis Flock to Polls - The New York Times ) recognized that those elections were a singular achievement,

[i]At least for now, the large turnout appeared to vindicate the strategy to hold elections sooner rather than later, over the objections of many Sunni leaders and in the face of the ferocious insurgency. That strategy, advocated by Ayatollah Sistani and President Bush, drew criticism that it would further divide the country and that, in any case, the Iraqis were not ready. [/i]

The EU (the EU!) came out with a statement of praise ( http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L31253607.htm ),

[i]European Union foreign affairs chief Javier Solana said Monday the Iraqi authorities can count on the support of the 25-nation EU after this weekend's elections highlighted the willingness to move toward a democratic Iraq. TheIraqi people "are going to find the support of the European Union ? no doubt about that ? in order to see this process move on in the right direction," Solana said in an interview with The Associated Press. <?> Last week the EU executive Commission offered to pump a further 200 million euros into the Iraqi economy to boost employment and help rebuild vital infrastructure. It also expects to approve by Feb. 22 a plan to train some 700-800 senior Iraqi police officers and magistrates a year. "There are several things in the pipeline that we are ready to discuss with the new leadership and to put into place, the sooner the better," said Solana.[/i]

And the UN?s Kofi Annan joined in! ( http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=13177&Cr=Iraq&Cr1= )

[i]United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan hailed the election's success, urged national reconciliation and pledged the world body's help in facilitating the country's ongoing political transition. Mr. Annan lauded the bravery of the large numbers of Iraqis who exercised their right to vote despite significant attempts at violent disruption, as well as those who supported the process. ?I wish to pay tribute to the courage of the Iraqi people, and to congratulate the Independent Election Commission of Iraq, as well as the thousands of Iraqi election workers and monitors, on having organized and carried out elections so effectively in such a limited timeframe and such daunting circumstances.? [/i]

Even on some late-night Euro TV talk shows, the usual panels of ?experts,? who ranged in their typical Euro elite political views from far left and anti-American to extremely far left and virulently anti-American, generally had to recognize ? albeit reluctantly ? that the elections were not bad and probably constituted a major political victory for George W. Bush on the eve of his visit to Europe. Who would have thought it? It turns out that EVEN Arabs prefer freedom and democracy to slavery and torture!

Yes, yes, we know, in another 24-48 hours they will be back to their usual carping ? and the UN and the EU will take credit for anything good and blame the US military for anything bad. But for now, it?s not bad . . .

Well, we said at the outset just about everybody is on board. There is one group of singularly anti-American types who just have had the hardest time imaginable praising the events of January 30. Who are these foul anti-Americans? Has The Diplomad taught you nothing? Why the leaders of the Democratic Party of the USA, of course! The party that has become the party of the Comma-ists. You know what we mean: the types who must always insert a comma after a ritual throw-away phrase. For example: ?Of course the terrorist attacks of 9/11 were horrible [Here it comes! Listen for it!] [COMMA] but US policy in the Middle East . . ." ?Of course the Iraqi elections were a good thing [COMMA] but they will not resolve the serious issue of severe income inequality in East St. Louis, or the growing gender disparity in the granting of scholarships to welding schools . . .?

You know the type. And who is the leader of the Commaists? Why none other than your friend John ?Christmas in Cambodia? Kerry! Listen to the leader speak ( MSN ),

[i]I think it's gone as expected. <?> it is significant that there is a vote in Iraq. But no one in the United States or in the world-- and I'm confident of what the world response will be. No one in the United States should try to overhype this election. This election is a sort of demarcation point, and what really counts now is the effort to have a legitimate political reconciliation, and it's going to take a massive diplomatic effort and a much more significant outreach to the international community than this administration has been willing to engage in. Absent that, we will not be successful in Iraq. [/i]

And a few days prior to this prouncement he had announced ( http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/18/kingday.kerry.ap/ ),

[i]Throughout Europe, as I met with European leaders, it's clear that they're prepared to do more, but the [Bush] administration has not put the structure together for people to be able to do it," he said. [/i]

Is this an insane man or does he just play one on TV? ?Gone as expected?? ?Overhype?? Uh, you mean like, uh, you did with your war record, Senator? ?A massive diplomatic effort and a much more significant outreach to the international community than this administration has been willing to engage in?? What is he talking about? What does that mean? Negotiate with Al Zarqawi? Who are the mysterious European leaders he met who want to do more but are prevented from doing it by Bush? They must not belong to the EU which is now busy falling all over itself to kiss Bush?s behind and dump money on Iraq. Or Kofi? Is he afraid of Bush or what?

But Kerry is not alone in his Commaism. Nope, not all ( Yahoo News - Latest News & Headlines ),

[i]Indiana Senator Evan Bayh, whose name has been mentioned as a possible presidential candidate in 2008, described the Iraqi elections as a “great day for democracy” but cautioned that “this is only one step in what is going to be a long and difficult process.”

"It's a good day, but we need to see it through to a successful conclusion," Bayh said. "And frankly, I'm concerned, given some of the past mistakes, whether this leadership team will be capable of that." <?>

Michigan Senator Carl Levin, a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee said, challenges remain. "I'm afraid there were some areas where the turnout is extremely low, and that's the Sunni Triangle areas or parts thereof," he said. "And that's the challenge that we now face." [/i]

You mean all of Iraq?s problems won?t be solved by one free and fair election? Bush lied!

Couldn?t these Commaists just let us enjoy and marvel at the day that our troops have bought with their blood? Couldn?t they just wait a bit before they fill the airwaves and print pages with their ?wisdom?? They should just be quiet and listen to Iraqi national security adviser Mowaffak Al-Rubaie, on CNN’s “Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer,” ( CNN.com - World leaders praise voter courage - Jan 30, 2005 )

This is one of the most joyful days ever in the history of this nation. This is a historic day. This is a paradigm shift that is transforming this country from the most ruthless, brutal, despotic regime, known dictatorship, into a full-fledged democracy. Today Iraqi people have served a blow and slap on the face of Zarqawi and Saddam loyalists and bin Laden. The Iraqi people, despite the fact that these threats and blood on the streets, they bought their freedom and they paid heavily in treasure and in blood. Millions of Iraqis are taking the responsibility now of fighting terrorism and the undemocratic, the dark forces."

No comma needed.

BB,

I wanted to highlight the “offer no alternatives” aspect of your most recent post.

Seems like we’ve heard this before.

Somewhere.

JeffR

Makkun,

Just wanted to pop by to spread a little cheer!!!

If I were you, I’d feel sickened and guilty about your country’s past.

It sounds like you have a brain-block when the word “Hitler” enters the conversation.

I’d probably have the same response.

However, just because you have a justified complex about the Nazi’s doesn’t mean the parallels aren’t crystal clear.

I also understand most of your motivations here.

For instance, if you were to admit that Saddam was the typical meglomaniac (which he of course is) and that your country was the number one arms supplier to Saddam (which you were), then it would follow that your country (above all others) hasn’t learned the lesson about brutual, homicidal dictators.

If you made the parallel between Hitler and Saddam (attacking neighbors, subjugating ethnicities within his borders, USING GERMAN POISION GAS, torturing, raping, pillaging, breaking international law, etc…) then you would be forced to admit that your sorry excuse for a government was not only culpable, but had an obligation to help remove Saddam.

Unfortunately, you chose to side with the french (the planet’s most fickle, passive agressive bunch of rejects).

Bad Call!!!

Catch the Iraqi women voting in droves the other day?

You deserve no thanks.

So be extremely careful about who you lecture about history’s lessons.

I say the Germans are the last people on the planet to lecture anyone about “learning lessons.”

Don’t believe me? See Bismarck, Kaiser Wilhem, and YES Hitler.

Thanks!!!

JeffR

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Makkun,

I say the Germans are the last people on the planet to lecture anyone about “learning lessons.”

Don’t believe me? See Bismarck, Kaiser Wilhem, and YES Hitler.

Thanks!!!

JeffR[/quote]

Unbelievable.

I don’t know what’s more incredible: the fact that there are people that think like you and refuse to admit they?re bigots; the fact that apparently most Americans think like you and don?t see themselves as bigots; or the fact that you and the aforementioned Americans don’t realize that’s exactly the arrogant line of thinking that served as a potent catalyst for such hatred of Americans outside our borders. Not necessarily as the sole cause, but definitely as a potent catalyst.

If Bush is really serious about getting back in good terms with Europeans, I honestly hope he’s smart enough to pretend he does not have the same opinions about them as you do. Because if he does think like you, that would effectively make him a hypocrite – after all, if Germans are even remotely as you characterize them, why bother trying to get in good terms with them, right?

Maybe one day Germany – and all the other NATO countries – will just be pissed off enough that they effectively end NATO (which according to the US military is useless these days anyway) and decide to close the US military bases in Europe and throw out every single American soldier they have there.

I won?t pretend to think that would teach you a lesson of humility, but it would be a lot of fun to watch.

[quote]hspder wrote:
Maybe one day Germany – and all the other NATO countries – will just be pissed off enough that they effectively end NATO (which according to the US military is useless these days anyway) and decide to close the US military bases in Europe and throw out every single American soldier they have there.
[/quote]

The only thing better than The U.S.'s exit from NATO would be the end of the UN.

It’s time that europe paid for and staffed their own defense.

hspder,

I’ve been called many things.

Never a bigot.

I’d like to stand in front of you and see the look on your face.

I’d be willing to bet that you would be far more respectful.

On a lighter note, thanks for not refuting anything that I said.

You don’t like the truth. That much is obvious.

It speaks volumes that you try to attack the messenger and not the message.

Thanks for losing.

It makes me look even better.

JeffR

[quote]makkun wrote:

Hitler had no plans to “unite” the races. Separating them was his doctrine… [/quote]

Actually that is correct. He wanted to so separate the races so much that he even wanted to breed out anything that was not Aryan. They actually had a belief that they were descended from Atlantians, those nutcases.

Actually that is something to be worried about. Just like you should be worried about people who worship serial killers, or like the recent story of kids trying to emulate the Columbine shooting. Sure there are those who are not serious, and make jokes. Or those who are not willing to follow through with such actions regardless of what they say. But there are those who are perfectly willing to follow through with such actions. That is the difference.

thuderbolt23 quote was here

Actually sometimes it almost is like a machine. People like to think that they are different from everyone else. That they are somehow unique. And either things should go their way just because they are different, or things will go worse just because they are somehow different. Never realizing they are just like everybody else. That is why lottery sales are so strong. With a 1 in 120 million chance of winning the big prize, you are somehow different, and those odds don’t apply to you.

Those television psychics take advantage of that all the time. It also makes the job of a magician easier. But if people learn these patterns, they can make a killing in the stock market, or possibly prevent loss in the market.

I pointed this out recently but there is a stock market crash every once in a while. After 9/11, in 1987, 1929, and actually a whole bunch of years before and between these. But historically every time it crashes, it rebounds a large part in a very short period of time. Most often not as much as it lost, but enough to make a substantial profit.

To the smart people it is like being in a Wal-Mart, or even a Bloomingdale’s (choose your store) and the management announces everything is 75% off. Suddenly the crowd runs out of the store fearing it is going to collapse, suddenly refusing to buy everything. (Sounds stupid doesn’t it?) Anyway the smart people stick around, and buy up the store, and even call up their friends to buy up the store.

Then the really smart people put what they just bought on ebay, at 50% off normal price, while nobody notices they just doubled their money.

No, I am not going off topic, (maybe just a little) just trying to make the logic understandable.

Well now you understand the logic of the market a little better, and the mindset of people. They will do foolish things like repeat the history because they always do, because they didn’t learn from it. But the ones who do learn from it profit from it, and actually can control the future. (Note: this logic has to be applied properly and intelligently to actually work.)

The reason it is so easy to say this is happening is because it keeps happening.

Lets use an example a little more on topic. Does anybody remember the arguments about Afghanistan? “Nobody has ever beat Afghanistan, so America will never win against it.” And they said the same thing about Iraq. And the same thing about the elections in Afghanistan, and Iraq.

I should point out that I am not talking about success or failure, but about the fact that people keep saying the same thing over and over, and nobody ever realizes it. And the patterns are too often the same. The biggest reason to even bring up WWII, and the Nazi’s is because history has to be taken into account.

Over all of history you hear about country after country deciding that it is easier to placate rather then fight. It didn’t work against the Vikings, so why should it work against the Nazi’s? It didn’t work against the Nazi’s, so why does everybody think it is going to work against the Muslim extremists.

This is also why I will never understand the philosophy of giving in and settling against a frivolous lawsuit instead of fighting, or the credit card companies previously letting crooks get away with credit card fraud. These two instances of placating because it seemed easier then fighting, and now we have rampant credit card fraud, and rampant frivolous lawsuits.

[quote]I think we always have to fear it when someone tries to impose certain worldviews on others and has the arsenal to support it.

Makkun[/quote]

And that is why Saddam had to go.

Remember if you learn from history, you will not repeat it like everyone else. Instead you will deviate from the norm, and everybody wants to be a deviant. (At least I do.)

[quote]JeffR wrote:
I’ve been called many things.

Never a bigot.[/quote]

That makes me think a lot of people need to pick up a dictionary for a change… Try it, you might understand what I said after you actually know what the word means…

I’ll give you some links:

http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=bigot&x=0&y=0

Any of them will do, because they all say the same…

[quote]JeffR wrote:
I’d like to stand in front of you and see the look on your face.

I’d be willing to bet that you would be far more respectful.[/quote]

I have no idea what that means – much less what you are implying. Maybe I’m stupid – so enlighten me.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
On a lighter note, thanks for not refuting anything that I said.[/quote]

I won’t “refute” an opinion. If you want to think the above (which I dear not repeat, no paraphrasing would do it justice), fine by me – it’s a free country. That doesn’t mean you’re not a bigot. Which you are ? and are free to be. I’d just like you to admit it, that’s all. I guess I was overestimating you when I thought you actually knew what the word meant.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
You don’t like the truth. That much is obvious.[/quote]

I wouldn’t call it the “truth” – it’s just your opinion. Even though I’ve learnt recently that in this country these days the opinion of a Conservative is expected to be taken as the “truth”.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
It speaks volumes that you try to attack the messenger and not the message.

Thanks for losing. [/quote]

It speaks volumes that a) you think that at this point I’d be dumb enough to try to convince you of anything (to quote a famous Texan TV personality: “You either get it, or you don?t”) and b) that you see this as a competition.

Or to use a quote from one of the references above:

“You can tell a bigot, but you can’t tell him much.”

[quote]JeffR wrote:
It makes me look even better.[/quote]

Oh yeah… If Fox News got hold of your comments they might even hire you as a political commentator… You fit the profile quite nicely…

[quote]hspder wrote:
That makes me think a lot of people need to pick up a dictionary for a change… Try it, you might understand what I said after you actually know what the word means…

I’ll give you some links:

http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=bigot&x=0&y=0

Any of them will do, because they all say the same…
[/quote]

So should we expect hspder to stand up and admit he is a bigot as well? You fit the definition. Do you have the honesty to admit to your own bigotry?

It’s amazing to me how many left-wingers think that these definitions don’t apply to them, yet they feel compelled to label everyone ‘beneath’ them.

Bigotry knows no political leaning.

So will you step up and admit to your own bigotry, or will you continue to run your self-righteous, hypocritical mouth?

That makes me think a lot of people need to pick up a dictionary for a change… Try it, you might understand what I said after you actually know what the word means…

I’ll give you some links:

http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=bigot&x=0&y=0

Any of them will do, because they all say the same…

Thanks!!!

I did know the definition. But, to show that I am open minded, I read through the links you sent.

Sorry, didn’t learn anything new. The definition still doesn’t apply to me.

“I have no idea what that means – much less what you are implying. Maybe I’m stupid – so enlighten me.”

It means you wouldn’t call me a bigot to my face. Why do it here?

“I won’t “refute” an opinion. If you want to think the above (which I dear not repeat, no paraphrasing would do it justice), fine by me – it’s a free country. That doesn’t mean you’re not a bigot. Which you are ? and are free to be. I’d just like you to admit it, that’s all. I guess I was overestimating you when I thought you actually knew what the word meant.”

Thanks again for underestimating me. That’s part of the rub between the political spectrums these days.

Please re-read my post about Germany. Read it twice. I want you to argue specifically that there were not direct parallels between Saddam and Hitler. Some of the parallels are quite eerie, in fact.

The difference this time around was that we’ve had two Bush’s who confronted the problem directly.

Contrast this to the League of Nations, france/england of the 1930’s.

If you know your history, you will recall that the French had 127 divisions poised to strike when Hitler invaded the Rhineland (with a ton of flower-laden bicycle troops). Captured documents show that the German high command had plans IN PLACE to remove hitler if the French made any agressive moves. They acted french, and the rest is history.

We’ve learned the lesson.

Germany hasn’t. I suppose the last two sentences are technically an opinion. However, you could make a strong case that they are a fact.

“I wouldn’t call it the “truth” – it’s just your opinion. Even though I’ve learnt recently that in this country these days the opinion of a Conservative is expected to be taken as the “truth”.”

Again, re-read the post. You can see direct FACTS. The similarities between hitler and saddam (and most megalomaniacs) are so transparent that they reach the status of FACT.

“It speaks volumes that a) you think that at this point I’d be dumb enough to try to convince you of anything (to quote a famous Texan TV personality: “You either get it, or you don?t”) and b) that you see this as a competition.”

OF COURSE IT’S A COMPETITION!!! It’s politics. I’m sorry I have to explain this to you.

By the way, if your arguments have enough strength, they will sway others.

If you hide behind a computer and throw the “bigot” word around, you are going to receive laughter and scorn.

Try a new tact!!!

JeffR

Or to use a quote from one of the references above:

“You can tell a bigot, but you can’t tell him much.”

JeffR wrote:
It makes me look even better.

Oh yeah… If Fox News got hold of your comments they might even hire you as a political commentator… You fit the profile quite nicely…
[/quote]

German headline for the week: Unemployment highest since World War II. Nice work there. You now have double the unemployment of the US. I would take some relish in enjoying the struggles of the incredibly judgmental and wrong-headed German government…
except, HISTORY has shown us that when unemployment in the Reich gets out of hand, the automaton German culture elects itself a strongman. Schroeder could be the modern day von Hindenburg. Better not admit any Austrian immigrants until this crisis passes. Watch out for failed artists and paper-hangers.

http://debka.com/article.php?aid=974

DEBKAfiles ‘own’ Iraq experts? Theres not a bit of evidence in this report. It’s all estimates based on anonymous ‘experts’. Where are they deriving their numbers from?

When they can site actual sources for their numbers, I might believe them. But right now they are in the same group as those who overestimated the “million man march”.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Please re-read my post about Germany. Read it twice. I want you to argue specifically that there were not direct parallels between Saddam and Hitler. Some of the parallels are quite eerie, in fact.

(…)

We’ve learned the lesson.

Germany hasn’t. I suppose the last two sentences are technically an opinion. However, you could make a strong case that they are a fact. [/quote]

I can’t believe you actually think you’ve actually drawn any parallels of any consequence.

Although Hitler and Saddam might have some personality traits in common, the geo-political and military situation was and is completely different between the two.

For example, on the latter (military) aspect, can you even start comparing the military might that Saddam had (even in 1991) with the German army of 1939, relative to their neighbors?

I’ll put it in even simpler terms: can you imagine Saddam successfully invading Syria, Iran, Jordan, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, like Hitler did with Poland, Austria, Hungary, The Netherlands, Belgium and France?

He actually tried with Iran (with the help of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, and, even of the US!!!) – but failed miserably after 8 years of attrition.

What were you afraid of? The arsenal of Trans-Atlantic tactical nukes he had pointed at the US? Oh wait, no, it can’t be that, his longest range missile could barely touch Israel…

Maybe it was the nuclear submarines he had patrolling the Atlantic? Oh, wait, he had no nuclear submarines. He didn’t have any submarines, for that matter.

Do you really think that Iraq had the capability to match – or even exceed – the technological and intellectual power of its neighbors (much less the US), like Nazi Germany did, in the remotely foreseable future, even if left unchecked (much less under constant surveillance, like he was)?

Show me an analysis from any credible source – even within your party – that successfully draws parallels between Nazi Germany and Saddam’s Baathist Iraq, backed up by historic facts on both aspects of the problem – geo-political and military – and I’ll shut up, I promise.

I have a newsflash for you: Germany learnt the lesson. Just spend some time there like I did, talk to the German people, read the ideas of their political parties since 1945 and you’ll see they’ve learnt their lesson 50 years ago.

We, however, apparently only learnt our lesson in 1991, when an ex-ally, which we had armed ourselves, and even supplied with the services of the CIA, turned against us. And then wait for 2003 to go back in to clean up the mess we helped create, claiming moral superiority over the rest of the World.

So apparently we didn’t even learn the lesson than well.

Several books:

U.S. support of Saddam: “Spider’s Web: The Secret History of How the White House Illegally Armed Iraq” by Alan Friedman, 1993.

For The Mage on trading with Hitler: “Trading With the Enemy: An Expose of the Nazi-American Money Plot, 1933-1949” by Charles Higham, 1983.

hspder,

I like this one. If it doesn’t cause you to think, let me know. There are plenty more.

www.realdemocracy.com/leo2.htm

If you want to have a discussion, please read everything that I write. I am writing things to you in some detail.

For instance, you contend that Germany “learned their lesson” 50 years ago.

Did you skip over the part WHERE THEY WERE THE NUMBER ONE ARMS SUPPLIERS TO SADDAM?

Don’t you think those of us who have had family members spill their blood defeating Hitler, have an obligation to call BULLSHIT when a German (makkun) comes on and refuses to even discuss the parallels between two megalomaniacs?

Doesn’t your brain allow you to digest the theory that after three brutual dictators in a 50 year period, the Germans should have learned their lesson about supporting said dictators?

Shouldn’t they be the WORLD AUTHORITY on recognizing one when they see him?

Again, if you want to be an internet tough guy and throw the word “bigot” around with reckless abandon without discussing valid points, let me know.

I’m better at face to face, but we can have a little PM pissing match if you wish.

By the way, what in the hell are you talking about with the “neighbors” comments?

Hitler invaded the Rhineland. Consolidated power/gained resources. Hitler implemented the Anschluss (took over Austria). Consolidated power/gained resources. Hitler took over Czech. Consolidated power/gained resources. Hitler invaded Poland. Consolidated power/gained resources.

Saddam invaded Iran. Bloody stalemate. Licked his wounds. Saddam invaded weaker neighbor, Kuwait.

Got his ass handed to him by Bush 1.

Now think about it. Had GHWB not stopped him in Kuwait, don’t you think Saudi was next? THEN after consolidating power/buying weapons/bribing UN, then Syria. THEN AFTER ANOTHER LULL OF CONSOLIDATING POWER–IRAN.

JeffR

P.S. I don’t want you to shut up. You do more harm to the leftist cause than I ever could.

First of all, I’d like to make it very clear that I never, for a second, questioned the legitimacy of the 1990-1 Gulf War. It was supported by the UN and all the countries you keep attacking – including, but not limited to, France and Germany. If anything I said made you think I was questioning it was a good idea to stop Saddam then (in 1990), please quote me so I can be clearer next time.

To clarify even further, my whole gripe here is about you comparing the situation in 2003 to the Nazi Germany of 1939.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Hitler invaded the Rhineland. Consolidated power/gained resources. Hitler implemented the Anschluss (took over Austria). Consolidated power/gained resources. Hitler took over Czech. Consolidated power/gained resources. Hitler invaded Poland. Consolidated power/gained resources.

Saddam invaded Iran. Bloody stalemate. Licked his wounds. Saddam invaded weaker neighbor, Kuwait.

Got his ass handed to him by Bush 1.

Now think about it. Had GHWB not stopped him in Kuwait, don’t you think Saudi was next? THEN after consolidating power/buying weapons/bribing UN, then Syria. THEN AFTER ANOTHER LULL OF CONSOLIDATING POWER–IRAN.
[/quote]

But the fact remains that in 1990, GHWB, with the approval and cooperation of the UN – and all the countries that learnt their lessons – and the help of a multinational force, DID stop Saddam in Kuwait, effectively making the situation very different, in 2003, from Germany in 1939. That’s my whole point.

[quote]Limbic wrote:
Several books:

U.S. support of Saddam: “Spider’s Web: The Secret History of How the White House Illegally Armed Iraq” by Alan Friedman, 1993.

For The Mage on trading with Hitler: “Trading With the Enemy: An Expose of the Nazi-American Money Plot, 1933-1949” by Charles Higham, 1983.[/quote]

Are these politically motivated or books on history? Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference.

But as far a Nazi’s and America, I saw an old movie of a very large Meeting of Nazi’s and their supporters. It was a very large event in a packed arena. I don’t know what the arena was other then it took place in New York.

There was a big push to bring Nazism to the USA, and it was taking hold with some people, and it was being controlled by the German leaders of that time. Anyone looking at the movie (they didn’t call them videos back then) would have thought it was in Germany.

And practically the exact same thing had happened with the USSR running, and recruiting people in America to become, and support Communism.

Interestingly there are rallies for Muslim extremists in America, but they never were as big as the New York Nazi rally, to my knowledge.

“First of all, I’d like to make it very clear that I never, for a second, questioned the legitimacy of the 1990-1 Gulf War. It was supported by the UN and all the countries you keep attacking – including, but not limited to, France and Germany. If anything I said made you think I was questioning it was a good idea to stop Saddam then (in 1990), please quote me so I can be clearer next time.”

So, my friend, you cut the cancer. It recurs. What do you do?

You either cut or die.

9/11 changed the stakes. We weren’t safe at home any longer. A chemical/biological/nuclear armed Saddam was not an acceptable risk. Couple that with known terrorist support, and you have a recipe for disaster.

“To clarify even further, my whole gripe here is about you comparing the situation in 2003 to the Nazi Germany of 1939.”

I’m sorry you feel that way. Did you read the link I sent? Honestly, with some of your responses, I’m not sure how much of my posts you read. Are you skimming? Let me know.

“But the fact remains that in 1990, GHWB, with the approval and cooperation of the UN – and all the countries that learnt their lessons – and the help of a multinational force, DID stop Saddam in Kuwait, effectively making the situation very different, in 2003, from Germany in 1939. That’s my whole point.”

It’s the same point that I made earlier.

Now I think you are trying to imply that that was it. Hussein was no longer a threat.

That is wrong.

He had to go for a multitude of reasons. One that I want you to think about is the undermining of any of the authority that the U.N. earned after Gulf War One. Saddam obstructing inspections and ultimately throwing them out totally undercut any authority the U.N. had. Couple that with a refusal in 2003 to enforce their OWN resolutions, made them AS RELEVANT AS THE 1930’S LEAGUE OF NATIONS.

If you cannot tell, I am a student of history. I read history constantly. So many things are cyclical. You can deny this, but you would be wrong.

JeffR