Iraq the Vote

[Cream]

If I close my eyes and wish REAAALLY hard all the bad people will go away.
We should go back to disengagement and disarmament so that we can get caught totally unawares like we did in every single war until the end of the Korean War. It’s much better to let down your guard and let problems spiral into crises, especially with nuclear weapons involved.

La-la-la-la nothing’s happening. If I put a towel over my head – I can’t see the monster, the monster must not be able to see me. If I’m really nice everyone will love me!

Hey, it worked for Neville Chamberlain!

[Moriarty]

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Initial estimates put Iraqi voter turnout at 72%. Better than we can muster in our own country.

Iraqis interviewed on TV seem joyous for the opportunity to let their vote speak for them.

They’ve had a dictator to do that for them in the past.

More recently, they’ve had a left-wing media telling the rest of the world how ‘premature’ holding elections are.

I think the Iraqi people just gave the finger to those elitists who think they should decide when a people can be free.[/quote]

Hey RJ,
Are you going to update this thread with the latest development regarding the voter turn-out in Iraq?

[rainjack]

[quote]Moriarty wrote:
Hey RJ,
Are you going to update this thread with the latest development regarding the voter turn-out in Iraq?[/quote]

Well, I posted later that voter turnout was closer to 60% rather than the 72% number.

Breaking News, World News and Video from Al Jazeera

I don’t know if there is any more recent data, but a google of “Iraqi voter turnout” gave the above link in which they are saying anywhere from 60-75% turnout.

But it is Al Jazeera, so make of it what you will.

[Limbic]

[quote]Cream wrote:
If I close my eyes and wish REAAALLY hard all the bad people will go away.
We should go back to disengagement and disarmament so that we can get caught totally unawares like we did in every single war until the end of the Korean War. It’s much better to let down your guard and let problems spiral into crises, especially with nuclear weapons involved.

La-la-la-la nothing’s happening. If I put a towel over my head – I can’t see the monster, the monster must not be able to see me. If I’m really nice everyone will love me!

Hey, it worked for Neville Chamberlain! [/quote]

Cream: I am proud of you: today you gathered the courage to Come Out!

Thus: “Bad people going away with eyes closed”? Astute Democrats, even a few Republicans who wanted to know how 9/11 was even possible with all the warnings and likelihoods? They aren’t that bad of people, Cream, but if you stand there long enough with your eyes and fists clenched shut, they’ll eventually go away.
“It’s much better to let down guards, let problems spiral”? Like G.H.W.Bush did with Afghanistan after the Soviets pulled out? After hooking up jihadis with arms procurers and Saudi monies, after looking the other way with Pakistani intelligence conspiracies? Best forget ‘bout that.
“Lalala blah blah blah”? Nothing’s wrong: it’s only the U.S. internal security apparatus’ decades-old dream of depriving Americans of pride and rights through Patriot I & II.
“If I put a towel over my head”? You don’t need to surrender your identity to the GOP, you really don’t.
“I can’t see the monster, the monster can’t see me”? Your own intelligence raises alarm bells all over the place, your surrendered identity needs to be re-claimed, the monstrous sacrifices required to belong cause you to hide from yourself, you have become the monster so to hide from yourself?
“If I’m really nice …”? If you’re really nice to YOURSELF, everyone will notice.
Become a man, don’t become gruff. Gruff’s for dawgs.

[makkun]

JeffR,

[quote]JeffR wrote:
hspder,

…

If you want to have a discussion, please read everything that I write. I am writing things to you in some detail.

For instance, you contend that Germany “learned their lesson” 50 years ago.

Did you skip over the part WHERE THEY WERE THE NUMBER ONE ARMS SUPPLIERS TO SADDAM?

Don’t you think those of us who have had family members spill their blood defeating Hitler, have an obligation to call BULLSHIT when a German (makkun) comes on and refuses to even discuss the parallels between two megalomaniacs?

Doesn’t your brain allow you to digest the theory that after three brutual dictators in a 50 year period, the Germans should have learned their lesson about supporting said dictators?

Shouldn’t they be the WORLD AUTHORITY on recognizing one when they see him?

…

JeffR

P.S. I don’t want you to shut up. You do more harm to the leftist cause than I ever could.[/quote]

I stand by my view that “historic comparisons” tend not to be too useful as socio-political situations are not ruled by simple mechanics. Sure it is important to transfer experiences from history, but simple comparisons don’t offer answers to complex questions.

And I feel my view supported by the ongoing discussion on this thread.

Makkun

[hedo]

Why should the US be Eurocentric any longer? Europe is no longer the center of anything. It was, but is no longer.

Didn’t we teach the Germans a lesson? One they did not want to learn willingly. I mean really wasn’t twice enough for us.

The vote was positive for humanity. The libs are angry because they were proven wrong and it capped off a horrible week for them.

[makkun]

hedo,

[quote]hedo wrote:
Why should the US be Eurocentric any longer? Europe is no longer the center of anything. It was, but is no longer.[/quote]

Possibly so. It’s just interesting that your new secretary of state is now travelling through Europe, trying to reignite the positive relationship that has been there for so long. If Europe is so unimportant - why bother?

Didn’t we teach the Germans a lesson? One they did not want to learn willingly. I mean really wasn’t twice enough for us.

That adds an interesting spin to the discussion. Wasn’t the lesson “we Germans” learnt that freedom and democracy are the right way? Now that “we” exercise our right to disagree on a few issues - why lament? Isn’t it a sign that “we” learnt “your” lesson well? Are you really complaining about souvereign political decisions of a democratic state?

The vote was positive for humanity. The libs are angry because they were proven wrong and it capped off a horrible week for them.

Surely, a vote is better than no vote. It looks like a genuine success. Good. No one is pissed off with that. As I said very early in this thread, let’s just be happy and respectful - without any bickering. Too bad that didn’t seem to work out.

Makkun

[hedo]

Makun

It is interesting that she is speaking in France. Politics above all I suppose.

I don’t doubt that the German are Democratic now nor do I disagree with their right to not follow along. I was pointing out that they did not do so willingly. They were forced to by an army. I think the plan worked brilliantly, Germany must never again be allowed to threaten the world. After two world wars it was time.

Ultimately I think this is the message Bush will send to the Islamofacists. They will learn a bitter lesson they are not prepared to accept and we will be done with them. Then somone else will take their place.

[makkun]

Hedo,

[quote]hedo wrote:
Makun

It is interesting that she is speaking in France. Politics above all I suppose.[/quote]

Guess so. Perhaps it is a little bit of realpolitik.

I don’t doubt that the German are Democratic now nor do I disagree with their right to not follow along. I was pointing out that they did not do so willingly. They were forced to by an army. I think the plan worked brilliantly, Germany must never again be allowed to threaten the world. After two world wars it was time.

For Nazi Germany, I am a bit more sceptical - the Germans were not forced (at least not in the beginning), they voted for the NSDAP and its programme, thus handing away a democratic system that was established in 1919. That is a legacy of my grandparent’s generation that we younger Germans will have to carry - and learn from. As cited so often about the Weimar Republic - a democracy needs democrats.

No country should be given a chance to terrorize its neighbours. The part we disagree is mostly on how to secure that and who the culprits are.

Ultimately I think this is the message Bush will send to the Islamofacists. They will learn a bitter lesson they are not prepared to accept and we will be done with them. Then somone else will take their place.

Here I am sceptical - and the ultimate reason why I doubt any comparison between current and WW2 history: Germany and its allies were countries to be defeated, with disciplined and generally well-educated populations who felt a general understanding of commonality with their occupying powers (perhaps except the Soviet Union). In Iraq, it is an insurgency, fed by continuous supra-national extremism. I think to invade Iraq did definitely take care of Saddam, but it might be fostering the terrorism that is supposed to be fought. Hence, the elections might (might!) turn out to be a pyrrhic victory.

Makkun

[JeffR]

Makkun wrote:

“Here I am sceptical - and the ultimate reason why I doubt any comparison between current and WW2 history: Germany and its allies were countries to be defeated, with disciplined and generally well-educated populations who felt a general understanding of commonality with their occupying powers (perhaps except the Soviet Union).”

I love you Makkun!!! I know you want to run away from the comparisons. If you allowed yourself to see with clarity, you would be an ardent supporter of this effort!!! That would mean agreeing with GEORGE W. BUSH!!! No way, right?!? “Bush lied, everyone died.!!”

By the way, you’d be hard pressed to call the Japanese of 1945 to have much in common with the Americans!!!

“In Iraq, it is an insurgency, fed by continuous supra-national extremism. I think to invade Iraq did definitely take care of Saddam, but it might be fostering the terrorism that is supposed to be fought. Hence, the elections might (might!) turn out to be a pyrrhic victory.”

Got a MIGHT OUT OF YOU!!! It’s a start.

JeffR

[hedo]

Makkun

I agree it is certainly easier to focus on a nation to defeat rather then a movement. However, I think we defeated National Socialism above all in WW2. That’s why I find the comparison valid.

In many ways the movements of National Socialism and Islamic Terrorism are similar. All “fantasy idealogies” are similar. Acceptance of death before capitulation. Fanatical devotion to leaders. All or none doctrine. A class of people to blame and hate and try and take retribution against. The Germans, however, picked on the Jews of Europe. A group with little or no power to retaliate. For some reason the terrorists have picked the US. Big mistake. Similar to the ones the Japanese made in WW2. They woke a sleeping giant and now must pay the price.

[JeffR]

I wrote:

“By the way, you’d be hard pressed to call the Japanese of 1945 to have much in common with the Americans!!!”

Sorry about that.

Terrible sentence structure!!!

Give me another chance!!!

By the way, you would be hard pressed to convince anyone living in 1945 that the Japanese and American cultures had much in common.

I feel much better now!!!

JeffR

[makkun]

JeffR,

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Makkun wrote:

“Here I am sceptical - and the ultimate reason why I doubt any comparison between current and WW2 history: Germany and its allies were countries to be defeated, with disciplined and generally well-educated populations who felt a general understanding of commonality with their occupying powers (perhaps except the Soviet Union).”

I love you Makkun!!! I know you want to run away from the comparisons. If you allowed yourself to see with clarity, you would be an ardent supporter of this effort!!! That would mean agreeing with GEORGE W. BUSH!!! No way, right?!? “Bush lied, everyone died.!!”[/quote]

It’s great to be loved. Thanks. But - just to make sure - whose posts have you been reading?

By the way, you’d be hard pressed to call the Japanese of 1945 to have much in common with the Americans!!!

You would be surprised:

Michael R. Auslin, Assistant Professor of History, Yale University
“150 Years Of U.S.-Japan Relations”
http://www.cgj.org/150th/html/contributionE.htm
An interesting speech, summarising the fact that Japan had, as an emerging international power quite a similar development to the US’s since the late 1800s.

Let’s continue with a little of my own: Since it’s “opening” by Perry’s black ships, Japan had tried to position itself as a major power, as it had seen what it’s neighbours had to endure under European colonial rule. In order to achieve that, it utilised quite a few western concepts during the Meiji Restoration: From Germany it lent its school and medical system and civil law, it tried to model its infantry after France’s and it’s navy after the Englands (the two last ones I would have to look up though). Japan considered itself as deserving a place among the big international powers - and in classical imperialistic style of the early 20th Century, tried to push it forward. The results we know.

But even after WW2, Japanese-US relations normalised in a quite an interesting way, especially under
General MacArthur - who called the Japanese tennou (and just slightly earlier bitter enemy) “the first gentleman of Japan” - when, within a pretty short time span, old elites from WW2 came back to power. (Paraphrased here after Ian Buruma, “The Missionary and the Libertine - Love and War in East and West”, faber & faber, p. 206).

So let me think - I found one; and what an exemplary American.

[quote]“In Iraq, it is an insurgency, fed by continuous supra-national extremism. I think to invade Iraq did definitely take care of Saddam, but it might be fostering the terrorism that is supposed to be fought. Hence, the elections might (might!) turn out to be a pyrrhic victory.”

Got a MIGHT OUT OF YOU!!! It’s a start. [/quote]

As you MIGHT have seen earlier in this thread, I MIGHT be happy it all MIGHT have work out well with the elections. I don’t really know whose posts you MIGHT have read.

Makkun

PS: Historical comparisons still tend to suck!

PPS: I love you too!

[makkun]

Makkun,

[quote]JeffR wrote:
I wrote:

“By the way, you’d be hard pressed to call the Japanese of 1945 to have much in common with the Americans!!!”

Sorry about that.

Terrible sentence structure!!!

Give me another chance!!![/quote]

No problem. It’s not that my sentences are always chrystal clear, either.

[quote]By the way, you would be hard pressed to convince anyone living in 1945 that the Japanese and American cultures had much in common.

I feel much better now!!!

JeffR
[/quote]

See my lengthy argument above.

Makkun

[makkun]

Hedo,

[quote]hedo wrote:
Makkun

I agree it is certainly easier to focus on a nation to defeat rather then a movement. However, I think we defeated National Socialism above all in WW2. That’s why I find the comparison valid.[/quote]

But National Socialism / Italian Fascism were still concentrated mostly in 2 countries - not that there were not any sympathisers elsewhere (I know my argument is really limping here) - and defeating them helped to get rid of them (mostly). But those were state-driven ideologies who fell apart when their systems collapsed.

In many ways the movements of National Socialism and Islamic Terrorism are similar. All “fantasy idealogies” are similar. Acceptance of death before capitulation. Fanatical devotion to leaders. All or none doctrine. A class of people to blame and hate and try and take retribution against. The Germans, however, picked on the Jews of Europe. A group with little or no power to retaliate. For some reason the terrorists have picked the US. Big mistake. Similar to the ones the Japanese made in WW2. They woke a sleeping giant and now must pay the price.

Fanatics are - I concede - generally unified in the methods they tend to use. If you base your comparison on that, I have to agree. But I think it is too narrow a view as you would have to put Stalin, Pol Pot and loads of others into the same drawer. And I think that the “axis of evil” approach (however serious and well intended it MIGHT be) does just that; I would argue - and unfortunately the news about insurgent attacks seem to support my view - that this approach has effectively gotten rid of Saddam, but not of terrorism.

Makkun