Iraq the Vote

Where do you get this world viewpoint? There are a lot of countries that don’t maintain a huge military. Strangely, they haven’t suffered mass invasions recently either.

And what is this Swiss foreign policy? Do you have any idea what you are talking about at all? There are plenty of ways to be involved in international efforts, notwithstanding our participation in Afghanistan, short of military involvement. I’d suggest you go do your research.

We have no threats on our borders because it is crazy for anyone to try to launch and invasion across an ocean without immense provocation. There is no hatred of Canada per se that exists to whip up a frenzy of military activity to convince another countries public to invade us.

Wake the fuck up.

Your tax money is spent on initiatives that we often get cajoled into participating in, though in reality the benefit to us is minor, because if we are hit it would really be because the missiles didn’t make it all the way to the US.

I think you have no idea what is involved in world affairs and international negotiations… and simply think the entire world is foaming at the mouth to invade any country any time. Most countries do not have people lined up at the door waiting to invade. Sorry if yours does or if you feel that yours does.

Well done Iraqi’s. It is hoped that you will join the community of free nations soon!

Canada love them or hate spends nothing on the military because they have a rich powerful neighbor to the South. By luck of geography they can economize. At least they could say thanks.

[quote]Limbic wrote:

I honestly believe the “illumination” you could receive at the hands of the illuminati would be so world-shattering you wouldn’t survive the experience. The remaining possiblity is that you are in their employ, hence the seeming insincerity.

As for Adolph Hitler, he received nods from a number of quarters.

The Illuminatists of Personal Gain.
[/quote]

Either you didn?t understand anything I said, or you are a complete loon.

You used no logic in your discussion, and had absolutely nothing to back up your statements.

And you are right that Adolph Hitler received nods. These were from idiots who were too blinded by their ignorance to see what was truly going on. Charlie Chaplin was thought to be off of his rocker to make fun of Hitler, but he was one of the few who saw the real threat.

Now history is repeating itself, and guess what… people actually learned from history. They saw the threat and stopped it. And yet they are put down for those actions with strange statements like “Saddam was a terrible man… BUT…”

Why the but? You know how many people said that Hitler can be placated? Just give him what he wants and he will leave us alone. But this is a mistake that once again was ignoring history. History that should have been learned even before the Vikings. People thought “Oh, if we pay off the Vikings, they will leave us alone.” What happened? They learned it was an easy plunder, and every Viking showed up the next year, making things a lot worse.

What you are not learning is that if you placate these people, they get stronger, and you get weaker. If you act like a victim, people treat you like one. Con men, child molesters, and school Bullies learn to look for those people with low self-esteem, or the victim mentality. What we need to do is try to get rid of that mentality, not promote it.

Otherwise Orwell’s visions will come true.

And I am being perfectly sincere in my statements, regardless of what you think.

Limbic,

no offense - but it is Adolf, not Adolph.

Sorry for being nitpickish, this is no attempt to weaken your argument.

Makkun

http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/./1/.1107247087298.Contact_2.jpg

Oh yeah, again since my (crystal) balls were brought up, this little move (not my hands) took about 9 months to master.

[quote]makkun wrote:
Limbic,

no offense - but it is Adolf, not Adolph.

Sorry for being nitpickish, this is no attempt to weaken your argument.

Makkun[/quote]

I have repeatedly found Adolph and Adolf, almost like they are interchangeable. I know some words and names have multiple spellings when translated, and I have to admit that I don?t know enough German to know if there even would be a difference or not.

I personally used Adolph instead of Adolf because Microsoft word complains about the f spelling, so I used the ph spelling. I personally never worried about the spelling, and doubt that limbic has either. But if there is a correct spelling, and Word is wrong, (which I know it can be,) I would prefer to be right.

I don’t know about limbic, but I will start using the f word. (Actually now that I think about it, I prefer referring to Hitler as the f word.)

The Mage said:
“And you are right that Adolph Hitler received nods. These were from idiots who were too blinded by their ignorance to see what was truly going on.”

Many nods were from Western industrialists and corporate leaders with business stakes in Germany. People with feelers in the proper places to know what was going on. Hardly idiots.

The Treaty of Versailles reduced the German nation to effective slavery in attempting to make war reparations. Factor in the Great Depression. Yet somewhere the German industrialists found the capital to revive their country through re-militarization. From whence the capital?
It’s not as if the borders of Germany were closed to foreigners: surely you’re not asking the world to believe the re-militarization went unnoticed by seasoned observers? You speak of a lack of logic: why was their collusion a well-kept secret for you? Such falterings are suspicious.
Call it looney if you want, but your Suspicion Color Code has been raised!
Open your eyes: Hitler was assisted. Capital, for you, was mysteriously found to drive him.

Clausewitz says war is politics by other means. Since politics is in the interest of business, then war is for business.
Since World War II petroleum transactions have been conducted in dollars: the petrodollar.
With the rise and success of the euro an option has been offered: to conduct transactions in euros.
Saddam’s fatal mistake “politically” was to begin petro transactions in euros. He’d stated intentions to conduct all of Irag’s petroleum transactions in euros.
This, after Iran had begun to do the same.
What was the result?

Interesting take on the main topic of the thread from WSJ Europe – an editorial comparing coverage of the election from Europe vs. Arab media coverage.

Europe’s Left in Denial
February 1, 2005

The European left’s attempts at damage control came right away. Just hours after the scenes viewed around the world of joyous and determined Iraqis defying terrorists by casting their votes, Germany’s Social Democratic parliamentary group sent out a press release with the following headline: “Iraq elections: A good step but no retroactive justification for the war.”

It says much about the decline of Germany’s left (and Europe’s for that matter) that the removal of a fascist dictator and the spread of democracy cannot be considered a worthy end in itself – at least not if the dictator is Arab and the liberators American.

The same bias runs through much of Europe’s media. According to a common narrative, nothing good could possibly come out of this “illegitimate” war. But that their ideological zeal to uncritically condemn American policy surpasses that of Arab media surely should be cause for some introspection.

Media-Tenor, a media analysis center headquartered in Bonn, Germany, studied the Iraq election coverage of 41 main European media outlets in Germany, France, the U.K., Spain and Italy between Jan. 17 and Jan. 26. The analysis compared this with 12 leading Arab TV stations and newspapers. Specifically, the researchers looked at how the journalists presented the legitimacy of the elections. The results “even stunned our Arab researchers,” Markus Rettich, director of political studies at Media Tenor, told us.

“European media portray a dramatic picture ahead of the elections in Iraq. The legitimacy of the election is strongly questioned. Almost no positive Iraqi sources are quoted,” Media Tenor writes.

The Arab media, on the other hand, “make significantly fewer skeptical statements regarding the legitimacy of the elections in Iraq. In contrast to the Europeans, the Arab coverage quotes more Iraqi sources. As far as legitimacy is concerned, Al Jazeera & Co. seem to be reporting about a different election,” Media Tenor concludes.

During the observation period, ambivalence or outright negative reporting about the legitimacy of the election always topped at least 60% of the European coverage. In the Arab media, positive reporting about the legitimacy usually topped 60% and sometimes was even 100%.

In Germany, the coverage appeared particularly biased. Nearly 80% of the reports regarding the legitimacy was negative in the coverage of ARD and ZDF, the two main state-funded broadcasters, which produce the “most-trusted” news shows. “The trend of the reports from ARD and ZDF correspond to the extremely one-sided pattern of reporting that we have observed since [Chancellor Gerhard] Schr?der’s change of his U.S. policy in the final phase of the 2002 German general elections,” Media Tenor editor-in-chief Roland Schatz said in a press release. “The media present the German public with a situation in Iraq that is twice as negatively portrayed as the one under Saddam Hussein’s dictatorship.”

“As long as the same daily topic is offered from Baghdad, the viewers cannot come to an independent judgment about what has been achieved in Iraq,” Mr. Schatz said.

We can add to this from our own observation of the media in Germany and beyond. French-state owned TF1, for example, Sunday made much of a report from Amman in which a German diplomat was complaining of “irregularities” and absence of monitors. As Michael Rubin wrote on these pages yesterday: “Judging an Iraqi election from Amman is the geographical and political equivalent of monitoring an American poll from Havana.”

Some European media are struggling today to reconcile this incredible display of courage and yearning for democracy by the Iraqi people with the distorted picture they have been painting of supposedly abject American failure in Iraq. The shock in some quarters is not unlike that which followed the re-election of President Bush. The inability to predict or even contemplate Mr. Bush’s victory stemmed from the same type of ideological bias that “informed” much of Europe’s Iraq coverage.

Then as now some are still in denial. “Americans are stupid,” was Europe’s verdict as the results came in Nov. 2. Surely there must be an equally facile answer to why Iraqis risked their lives to vote. Given a little time, someone in Europe will come up with it.

[quote]makkun wrote:
Limbic,

no offense - but it is Adolf, not Adolph.

Sorry for being nitpickish, this is no attempt to weaken your argument.

Makkun[/quote]

Are we reading the same posts? I have yet make any sense at all out of the words limbic has thrown together.

I hardly think spelling corrections can weaken his argument - since he’s yet to convey a coherent thought.

DEBKAfile?s analysts estimate real turnout as 40-45%
at least 16 suicide attacks claimed by Zarqawi that killed more than 40 Iraqis

Centrist-elect rainjack: I do understand you may very well be significantly mentally challenged, but do attempt courage.
Some would find it insulting to identify with your thought processes.
Remedial reading comprehension courses are available online.

Centrist-assumpt-elect rainjack. Your new title.

[quote]Limbic wrote:

Many nods were from Western industrialists and corporate leaders with business stakes in Germany. People with feelers in the proper places to know what was going on. Hardly idiots. [/quote]

Just because somebody runs a business, or has money does not mean they are not idiots.

[quote]The Treaty of Versailles reduced the German nation to effective slavery in attempting to make war reparations. Factor in the Great Depression. Yet somewhere the German industrialists found the capital to revive their country through re-militarization. From whence the capital?
It’s not as if the borders of Germany were closed to foreigners: surely you’re not asking the world to believe the re-militarization went unnoticed by seasoned observers? You speak of a lack of logic: why was their collusion a well-kept secret for you? Such falterings are suspicious. [/quote]

It is a big complaint that people allowed Hitler to remilitarize. They ignored what was going on. Can you not see the connection between this and the food for oil scam that went on?

[quote]Call it looney if you want, but your Suspicion Color Code has been raised!
Open your eyes: Hitler was assisted. Capital, for you, was mysteriously found to drive him. [/quote]

You do know that Germany was printing money like crazy don’t you? It worked out at first, but then inflation was murder there. By the way who specifically gave Hitler money?

Holly crap, what a leap of logic. Politics is not only in the interest of business. Otherwise there would be no business taxes. No, politics is a little more complex then that.

[quote]Since World War II petroleum transactions have been conducted in dollars: the petrodollar.
With the rise and success of the euro an option has been offered: to conduct transactions in euros.
Saddam’s fatal mistake “politically” was to begin petro transactions in euros. He’d stated intentions to conduct all of Irag’s petroleum transactions in euros.
This, after Iran had begun to do the same.
What was the result?[/quote]

The result is that you obviously listen to Coast to Coast AM. Great show, I especially love listening to the guy who said that the world leaders have lizard DNA, and that makes them susceptible to mind control by inter-dimensional aliens who run the illuminati. (And we have our circle of logic.)

I heard the theory you are spouting on Coast to Coast, and considered it to be crap then.

You want to know why the dollar was used for the trade of oil? Because it is the most stable of currencies. Is it down now? Yes, and intentionally. But it will go back up.

Since you have your little theories, exactly how does it affect America if there is a switch from using the dollar as the value to using the euro as the value? You keep spouting your theories, so I want an explanation here.

Personally I don’t see how it can matter. The dollar in this issue is nothing more then a measure. It is like going to war because a country wanted to switch from ounces to grams.

With the dollar dropping it has affected oil prices worldwide, which might actually cause the price of oil to be high here, but not as much other places. But as the value of the dollar increases, if oil stays measured in the dollar, then it will increase in value as the dollar increases, and might actually drop in price here.

Now I expect an answer, single spaced, at least 3 pages, and this constitutes a full third of your grade.

[quote]Limbic wrote:
DEBKAfile?s analysts estimate real turnout as 40-45%
at least 16 suicide attacks claimed by Zarqawi that killed more than 40 Iraqis

Centrist-elect rainjack: I do understand you may very well be significantly mentally challenged, but do attempt courage.
Some would find it insulting to identify with your thought processes.
Remedial reading comprehension courses are available online.

Centrist-assumpt-elect rainjack. Your new title.[/quote]

You keep writing jibberish. You can’t follow simple logic. You’ve made absolutely no sense whatsoever in this thread, and my thought processes are insulting?

You need to put down your D&D dice, get out of your mother’s basement, and get a freakin job.

I think centrist is too far left for me.

No D&D dice? But I love my d20 die. I am a level 12 Mage after all.

:^p

DEBKAfile?s analysts estimate real turnout as 40-45%
at least 16 suicide attacks claimed by Zarqawi that killed more than 40 Iraqis

Centrist-elect rainjack: I do understand you may very well be significantly mentally challenged, but do attempt courage.
Some would find it insulting to identify with your thought processes.
Remedial reading comprehension courses are available online.

Centrist-assumpt-elect rainjack. Your new title.

You keep writing jibberish. You can’t follow simple logic. You’ve made absolutely no sense whatsoever in this thread, and my thought processes are insulting?

You need to put down your D&D dice, get out of your mother’s basement, and get a freakin job.

Yes, conceptually insulting. You are telling us it’s OK not to think critically, to simply accept and trust. Those wielding the Power-for-Power philosophy are caring for us. Insulting.

Emotionally insulting in that you attempt to present yourself as the “popularly pleasant” centrist-elect for those who “feel good”. An assumption. An insult. Desist.

As far as these “needs” go, if I were to tabulate the number with time of day of your posts I would come to the conclusion that your “job” might be to man the helm, as it were. To perform as the mouthpiece of some, organisation.

Come out.

[quote]Limbic wrote:
Yes, conceptually insulting. You are telling us it’s OK not to think critically, to simply accept and trust. Those wielding the Power-for-Power philosophy are caring for us. Insulting.[/quote]

No one is telling you not to think critically. Knock yourself out, Jethro. Usually those that propose to do so have some proof behind their process. You have none. College theory at best, but no substantial base from which to argue.

The only attempt I make is to post my opinions - just like most everyone else in this forum. Your thinking that I am trying to do anything other than be myself is your ignorance manifest, and I can do nothing about that.

Are you telling me to ‘desist’ from voicing my opinion? Somehow I don’t see that happening.

[quote]As far as these “needs” go, if I were to tabulate the number with time of day of your posts I would come to the conclusion that your “job” might be to man the helm, as it were. To perform as the mouthpiece of some, organisation.
[/quote]

My ‘job’ is that of a business owner. My posting frequency is a direct benefit of DSL, and the fact that I don’t live in the basement of my mom’s house.

Mage,

[quote]The Mage wrote:
makkun wrote:
Limbic,

no offense - but it is Adolf, not Adolph.

Sorry for being nitpickish, this is no attempt to weaken your argument.

Makkun

I have repeatedly found Adolph and Adolf, almost like they are interchangeable. I know some words and names have multiple spellings when translated, and I have to admit that I don?t know enough German to know if there even would be a difference or not.

I personally used Adolph instead of Adolf because Microsoft word complains about the f spelling, so I used the ph spelling. I personally never worried about the spelling, and doubt that limbic has either. But if there is a correct spelling, and Word is wrong, (which I know it can be,) I would prefer to be right.

I don’t know about limbic, but I will start using the f word. (Actually now that I think about it, I prefer referring to Hitler as the f word.)[/quote]

I am German. It is “Adolf”. And I like your reasoning concerning the f-word. That’s proper thinking when it comes to this guy. :wink:

Makkun

rainjack,

[quote]rainjack wrote:
makkun wrote:
Limbic,

no offense - but it is Adolf, not Adolph.

Sorry for being nitpickish, this is no attempt to weaken your argument.

Makkun

Are we reading the same posts? I have yet make any sense at all out of the words limbic has thrown together.

I hardly think spelling corrections can weaken his argument - since he’s yet to convey a coherent thought.
[/quote]

To be honest, whenever I read Hitler’s name in our threads here, I tend to put on the bullshit-deflector, as all prior comparisons of some current situation with the nazi-regime tended to be just utter crap. I haven’t really read the posts, just saw there was a substantial mistake, pointed it out, and respectfully tried to stay out of the argument. So - no, I guess we haven’t read the same posts.

Makkun

[quote]makkun wrote:

To be honest, whenever I read Hitler’s name in our threads here, I tend to put on the bullshit-deflector, as all prior comparisons of some current situation with the nazi-regime tended to be just utter crap. I haven’t really read the posts, just saw there was a substantial mistake, pointed it out, and respectfully tried to stay out of the argument. So - no, I guess we haven’t read the same posts.

Makkun[/quote]

You should have your bullshit detector on whenever you hear somebody use the Nazi?s, or Hitler to prove a point, or to attack somebody?s political position.

Hitler, and the Nazis were not just a group of bigots, but a group of nutcase extremists beyond what anyone can even imagine. They were self destructive enough that I do not believe that any success they could have had would ever last very long. Their entire philosophy was so twisted it just could not stand up in the real world.

The fact is that few people actually realize how far it went. Jews were just the beginning. Even Hitler wasn?t perfect according to their philosophy. You had to have blond hair, blue eyes, be over 6 feet tall, and be in perfect health. They talked about building a city, and the possibility of having the slave races (note the plural) visit to see their superiority.

The only reason I would bring them up is if it truly fits. For example the extremist terrorists who not only consider Hitler to be a hero, but also want to see the Jews eliminated from the Earth. They also have a strong propaganda machine running.

The Nazi’s were idiots who were lucky more then anything. The ones in charge screwed things up and often got in the way of those who were attempting to follow orders.

The thing is we cannot use the memory of the Nazi’s, and Adolf, lightly, but we need to recognize when similar events occur. This should not be about attacking people, but about understanding history so it does not repeat itself.

Makkun,

One thing I would disagree about: comparisons between Nazi Germany and our current situation are not so far-fetched.

Saddam’s pan-Arabism read like a Nazi manual on uniting the races and settling old scores.

And the appeasement doctrine of the current situation is dangerously analogous to that surrounding the Munich Pact.

Hell, I wouldn’t have been surprised if Kofi Annan declared sometime before March 2003 that we had achieved “Peace in our time”.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Makkun,

One thing I would disagree about: comparisons between Nazi Germany and our current situation are not so far-fetched.

Saddam’s pan-Arabism read like a Nazi manual on uniting the races and settling old scores.

And the appeasement doctrine of the current situation is dangerously analogous to that surrounding the Munich Pact.

Hell, I wouldn’t have been surprised if Kofi Annan declared sometime before March 2003 that we had achieved “Peace in our time”.

[/quote]

Two reasons for this. First history repeats itself because, as I have said before, too many people do not learn

The other reason is that Saddam, and many Muslim Extremists consider Hitler to be a hero, and a man to emulate. They do take from the Nazi playbook.

The hate of the Jews is a big part of it. I presume you have heard about the UN having a Holocaust memorial, and Jordan was the only Arab country that stayed for the memorial.

Or how Mahmoud Muhammad Khadhr, a cleric from Egypt’s “prestigious” Al-Azhar University published an article entitled, “In Defense of Hitler”.

Not to mention all of the talk of the Holocaust being a myth. Yes we have reason to fear when Nazism is promoted by very powerful people in the Mid-East.