Iraq Is Now LOST

Point taken - for Germany (my pet subject), I disagree though. http://www.discovery.de/de/pub/specials/terror/chronik/bundeswehreinsaetze/einsaetze2001.htm (a German source, though I guess there are English ones to be found aswell) states that German troops started patroling in Kabul on 14.01.2002. Before that on 02.01.2002 the biggest German marine forces (since WW2) moved out from Bremerhaven to support the Afghanistan effort by taking over patroling from the US before some African shores. The Bundeswehr has 2 main problems to do any “heavy lifting”: It is a comparably defensive force and every military action outside of Europe is quite hard to action due to certain provisions in the German “constitution”. But - they have helped out, and in other theatres they have been around longer.

Makkun,

My fault on that one, I forgot to add in IASF which is what you were referenced. I agree the Germans have helped out in other theaters/campaigns. I was stationed in Germany from 1996-2001 flying on NATO AWACS during the whole Bosnia/Kosovo campaign and I can vouch that the Germans, as far as I know, were 100% supportive. The Greeks were a different story, they refused to fly. Also the Germans, as part of NATO AWACS, deployed to the US right after 9/11 to help with the air surveillance.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
tme,

If dodging war was my primary goal, then I’d have voted straight Democrat.

We could ignore problem spots, vote for and against wars, and generally make a total fool of ourselves.

Thanks for your input!!!

JeffR[/quote]

jeffy, seriously did a democrat rape you at some point in your life? You seem to suffer from PTSS. You know there are sexual deviants in both parties.

CDM

[quote]CDM wrote:

Makkun,

My fault on that one, I forgot to add in IASF which is what you were referenced. I agree the Germans have helped out in other theaters/campaigns. I was stationed in Germany from 1996-2001 flying on NATO AWACS during the whole Bosnia/Kosovo campaign and I can vouch that the Germans, as far as I know, were 100% supportive. The Greeks were a different story, they refused to fly. Also the Germans, as part of NATO AWACS, deployed to the US right after 9/11 to help with the air surveillance. [/quote]

Thanks CDM for acknowledging. It means a lot to me. I have been kinda tired lately and angered by the stance of some that “old Europe” was just a bunch of cowards that would not take on international responsibility, just because we would not support the Iraq war effort, we just did not believe in.

German and French soldiers are being killed in the line of duty on international peace keeping missions just as Americans are - and I think that should be acknowledged, as parents loose their sons and children loose their fathers for a greater cause. Calling us all “Eurotrash” - as done earlier in this thread by someone - is a disgrace.

Thanks again. I realy appreciate this.

Makkun

Brother Elk,

What is PTSS?

Do you mean PTSD?

The Democrats do try to rape me of tax dollars.

I’m glad they are powerless.

Thanks,

JeffR

Makkun,

You know what would be even more enlightened?

How about acknowledging that there are about 100 other reasons to have invaded Iraq except for “American Imperialism” and “Oil.”

That would be trully refreshing.

I don’t believe that every European is a punk. I want to give special thanks to England, Poland, Hungary, Pre-Socialist Spain, Portugal, and most of the former Soviet Republics.

I want to single out Germany, Russia, and France for scorn. Being massively bribed at the highest levels and then having the audacity to act “holier than thou” is trully the pinnacle of hypocrisy.

Thanks,

JeffR

Jeffy, my bad, thanks for pointing out my error. Could it have been a mixed breed, French, German, Russian, Democrat, that violated you?

Jeff, on a serious note, do you really believe that America is perfect and only acts with complete integrity and honor? Kinda like superman and countries like Germany and France are villains? People, countries, groups, act in their own interests sometimes for good sometimes for bad, the US included, Democrats and Republicans included!

JeffR

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Makkun,

You know what would be even more enlightened?

How about acknowledging that there are about 100 other reasons to have invaded Iraq except for “American Imperialism” and “Oil.”[/quote]

Never said that. Can’t prove it either. So I shut up on that one. I criticise the Iraq war as based on flimsy and simply wrong intelligence and as an unwise move in the fight against terror.

[quote]That would be trully refreshing.

I don’t believe that every European is a punk. I want to give special thanks to England, Poland, Hungary, Pre-Socialist Spain, Portugal, and most of the former Soviet Republics.

I want to single out Germany, Russia, and France for scorn. Being massively bribed at the highest levels and then having the audacity to act “holier than thou” is trully the pinnacle of hypocrisy.[/quote]

Didn’t say that either, neither have they - politicians are never clean. That “massively bribed” part is still under investigation, and as far as I heard no German gouvernment members have been indicted. So differentiating your argument would be useful.

And - although there is the argument that the OFF programme prolongued the suffering of the Iraqi people under Saddam - in my book being bribed is a lesser sin than getting people killed if not absolutely necessary.[quote]

Makkun

Elk,

I do not think any group is totally altruistic.

But, the U.S. gives sixty percent of the free aid to the world every year.

We are the most altruistic.

Thanks,

JeffR

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Interesting – the WaPo story you linked to is an ombudsman article explaining that they didn’t run the story…

The Defense Science Board isn’t the Pentagon, as I believe was alleged in your first story. It’s an independent federal group composed of academics, think-tankers and private-sector representatives tasked with giving independent advice to the SecDef. It does not speak for the Pentagon, nor does it make conclusions for the Pentagon or the Secretary of Defense.[/quote]

The truth is DSB has been advising the Pentagon DIRECTLY since it’s establishment in 1956 in all matters - from manufacturing to foreign policy.

“The current Board is authorized to consist of thirty-two members plus seven ex officio members”: the chairmen of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Policy, Ballistic Missile Defense Advisory Committee, and Defense Intelligence Agency Science and Technology Advisory Committee. "Members, whose appointed terms range from one to four years, “are selected on the basis of their preeminence in the fields of science, technology and its application to military operations, research, engineering, manufacturing and acquisition process.”

“The Board operates by forming Task Forces consisting of Board members and other consultants/experts to address those tasks referred to it by formal direction. The products of each Task Force typically consist of a set of formal briefings to the Board and appropriate DoD officials, and a written report containing findings, recommendations and a suggested implementation plan.”
http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Defense_Science_Board

More than a “best guess”, I believe the study should be taken VERY seriously, if not just for it’s common sense approach.

This study is really nothing more than confirmation of what most strategists already have agreed upon long ago. It also echos what Pat Buchanan has been saying well before this study ever came out, that our involvement and unquestioning support of Israel is at the root of Islamic terrorism against the US. Is it so hard to believe our so-called “solution” to terrorism benefits Israel while at the same time making the US more and more hated around the world?

The fact that the media didn’t jump all over this report also helps point out the myth of the “liberal media”. Not only has this war divided our nation, it’s divided the Republican party to the point where Pat Buchanan, by the newest definition, is essentially considered a liberal.

The thought of fighting terrorism and spreading democracy to every corner of the earth through preemptive wars is as absurd as trying to force everyone to adopt “red” as their new favorite color.

What might scare me more than terrorism itself is a world completely VOID of terrorism…for that to be possible you’d also have to get rid of Freedom.

“The powers in charge keep us in a perpetual state of fear keep us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor with the cry of grave national emergency. Always there has been some terrible evil to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it by furnishing the exorbitant sums demanded. Yet, in retrospect, these disasters seem never to have happened, seem never to have been quite real.”

  • General Douglas MacArthur

Man, JusttheFacts,

I checked out that “Disinfopedia” site of yours – it looks like it’s sort of a Wikipedia type project, only they only take submissions from liberals and conspiracy theorists (two distinct groups, mind you). Most interesting to read some of their definitions…

But more substantively, there’s not much of a difference between “advise” and “directly advise,” even if you type the “DIRECTLY” in all caps. Either way, it doesn’t mean they speak for the Pentagon, which is what it said in your initial story.

I just find it interesting that so many sources that find so much space to criticize so many aspects of the Iraq War couldn’t find more space for this study, or its supposedly huge implications.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Man, JusttheFacts,

I checked out that “Disinfopedia” site of yours – it looks like it’s sort of a Wikipedia type project, only they only take submissions from liberals and conspiracy theorists (two distinct groups, mind you). Most interesting to read some of their definitions…[/quote]

Sorry, I forgot who I was talking to…
The Defense Science Board was established in 1956 in response to recommendations of the Hoover Commission:
http://www.acq.osd.mil/dsb/history.htm

Spoken like a true lawyer : )
“The Board reports directly to the Secretary of Defense through the USD (AT&L) while, at the same time, working in close coordination with the DDR&E to develop and strengthen the Department’s research and development strategies for the 21st Century.”
I see your point though, being that they aren’t “officially” the Pentagon, how can they be taken seriously…I forgot, only studies in agreement with the administration are valid.

The media, most specifically the TV news, will never report a negative story that can’t be quickly discredited or rebuffed. All they do is put out just enough to make it look like a two-sided argument while the big stories go completely unreported.

Case in point:
In his State of the Union address before the war Bush mentioned evidence of Iraq’s purchase of “significant quantities of uranium” from Niger as reason to go to war yet the fact that the evidence was based on forged documents hardly made news. Everyone jumped all over the CBS National Guard story as proof of a ‘liberal media’ while completely unaware of the more serious story that got bumped.
The Story that didn’t run
“Here we had a very important, well-reported story about forged documents that helped lead the country to war. And then it gets bumped by another story that relied on forged documents.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6073449/site/newsweek/

Related:
http://www.yuricareport.com/Impeachment/Dean%20Why%20a%20Special%20Prosecutor.html

http://www.independent-media.tv/itemprint.cfm?fmedia_id=9170&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported

http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news1/kwiatkowski.html

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/100304A.shtml

http://www.house.gov/waxman/text/admin_iraq_march_17_let.htm

Or how about the Israeli spy investigation involving the Pentagon and AIPAC:
FBI steps up AIPAC probe
"In 2001, the FBI discovered new, [u]“massive” Israeli spying operations in the East Coast, including New York and New Jersey, said one former senior U.S. government official.[/u]

(To be fair I have seen it mentioned on CNN’s scrolling banner once or twice.)

This is the big one though- the 4 part FOX NEWS story that got yanked as soon as it came out in Dec 2001 - (after this it seems FOX took an immediate right)

Transcript part 1 -

Transcript part 2 -

Video part 3 - 3MB
http://www.photographyandartbycarl.com/911/FOXpt3.rm

Video part 4 - 7MB
http://www.photographyandartbycarl.com/911/FOXpt4.wmv

Unfortunately anything with real teeth just somehow gets buried…I remember the good ole’ days when spying on the US was frowned upon.

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:

Case in point:
In his State of the Union address before the war Bush mentioned evidence of Iraq’s purchase of “significant quantities of uranium” from Niger as reason to go to war yet the fact that the evidence was based on forged documents hardly made news. Everyone jumped all over the CBS National Guard story as proof of a ‘liberal media’ while completely unaware of the more serious story that got bumped. [/quote]

That’s funny, I heard all about it, and a lot of that was from Fox. You know that biased news organization supposedly for Bush. Were they the only news organization keeping the negative news about Bush out there?

But the information came from Britton, and they still stand behind the data, and I believe it has other substantiating evidence.

Anyway, what was the difference? One was the news media where we get our information, and they didn’t just lack bias, but attempted to influence an election. That is not their job, it is to report the news.

The presidential speech was supposed to influence, but they did apologize about in inclusion saying that it should not have been in there. But still there is corroborating evidence, while there was not enough for the Bush documents.

Now as far as the spying incident, I don?t know why some news stories are pulled, while others are not. You can read into it what you like, but often there are reasons nobody knows about. Such as some information too week to go to ?press? with.

Although if you really want information not talked about on television, as related to spying, there is practically no country that does not have spies in this country. That includes Canada. Yes we have Canadian spies here, believe it or not.

Unfortunately this tells us what the truth about the world. Yes we have Israeli spies here, and we have spies in Israel. (And Canada, can?t forget that.)

Oh yeah, the news media does suck. I definitely agree with you on that. But I think that has more to do with ratings then anything else. If we wanted more intelligent news, they would give it to us.

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
Man, JusttheFacts,

I checked out that “Disinfopedia” site of yours – it looks like it’s sort of a Wikipedia type project, only they only take submissions from liberals and conspiracy theorists (two distinct groups, mind you). Most interesting to read some of their definitions…

Sorry, I forgot who I was talking to…
The Defense Science Board was established in 1956 in response to recommendations of the Hoover Commission:
http://www.acq.osd.mil/dsb/history.htm [/quote]

Thank you. Much better source.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
But more substantively, there’s not much of a difference between “advise” and “directly advise,” even if you type the “DIRECTLY” in all caps. Either way, it doesn’t mean they speak for the Pentagon, which is what it said in your initial story.

JusttheFacts wrote:
Spoken like a true lawyer : )
“The Board reports directly to the Secretary of Defense through the USD (AT&L) while, at the same time, working in close coordination with the DDR&E to develop and strengthen the Department’s research and development strategies for the 21st Century.”
I see your point though, being that they aren’t “officially” the Pentagon, how can they be taken seriously…I forgot, only studies in agreement with the administration are valid. [/quote]

This is entirely beside the point. The point was your story said the Pentagon was admitting something. The fact is that an advisory board to the Pentagon released a study. So not only is the Pentagon not making the claim your story alleged, but it’s not even endorsing the study as far as I can tell.

Whether it’s valid or not remains to be seen.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
I just find it interesting that so many sources that find so much space to criticize so many aspects of the Iraq War couldn’t find more space for this study, or its supposedly huge implications.

JusttheFacts wrote:
The media, most specifically the TV news, will never report a negative story that can’t be quickly discredited or rebuffed. All they do is put out just enough to make it look like a two-sided argument while the big stories go completely unreported.

Case in point:
In his State of the Union address before the war Bush mentioned evidence of Iraq’s purchase of “significant quantities of uranium” from Niger as reason to go to war yet the fact that the evidence was based on forged documents hardly made news. Everyone jumped all over the CBS National Guard story as proof of a ‘liberal media’ while completely unaware of the more serious story that got bumped.
The Story that didn’t run
“Here we had a very important, well-reported story about forged documents that helped lead the country to war. And then it gets bumped by another story that relied on forged documents.”

Related:
http://www.yuricareport.com/Impeachment/Dean%20Why%20a%20Special%20Prosecutor.html

http://www.independent-media.tv/itemprint.cfm?fmedia_id=9170&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported

http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news1/kwiatkowski.html

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/100304A.shtml

http://www.house.gov/waxman/text/admin_iraq_march_17_let.htm [/quote]

Yeah, I know about that story. Unfortunately, it wasn’t much more than beating a dead horse. The “16 words” story had been beaten to death earlier. This story didn’t add much on the idea of forged docs, because the administration had already stated the intel was suspect, while the British still stand behind their own assessment. The story’s additional claim that the French had something to do with the forgeries was interesting, but I think it would have done more to stir up anti-French sentiment than anything, given it wasn’t adding to the basic story on the intel – it didn’t reach the British assessment, and our government had already released its assessment that the documents were forgeries.

Only one news organization had researched this big, huge story – how could it have been squelched by the false docs story about how CBS was trying to influence the election otherwise? And from all your sources you listed above, apparently all these other organizations know about it and have declined to take it further even though CBS didn’t run with it. Maybe that’s because there’s not much it adds.

[quote]
JusttheFacts wrote:
Or how about the Israeli spy investigation involving the Pentagon and AIPAC:
FBI steps up AIPAC probe
"In 2001, the FBI discovered new, [u]“massive” Israeli spying operations in the East Coast, including New York and New Jersey, said one former senior U.S. government official.[/u]

(To be fair I have seen it mentioned on CNN’s scrolling banner once or twice.)

This is the big one though- the 4 part FOX NEWS story that got yanked as soon as it came out in Dec 2001 - (after this it seems FOX took an immediate right)

Transcript part 1 -

Transcript part 2 -

Video part 3 - 3MB
http://www.photographyandartbycarl.com/911/FOXpt3.rm

Video part 4 - 7MB
http://www.photographyandartbycarl.com/911/FOXpt4.wmv

Unfortunately anything with real teeth just somehow gets buried…I remember the good ole’ days when spying on the US was frowned upon.[/quote]

I heard about this – what sort of teeth does this have? We know our allies spy on us, and I believe we spy on them too. Unless the story alleges stealing of defense secrets or something important, I wouldn’t call this newsworthy. Do we see stories about French agents or British agents or satellites or what have you?

It’s almost like this columnist has been reading this thread.

Mage, BB - I will get back with you shortly.

U.S. media still hiding bad news from Americans
ANTONIA ZERBISIAS
Dec 9, 2004

And now the good news from America’s accomplished mission in Iraq …

The other night on ABC News Nightline, Ted Koppel asked National Public Radio war correspondent Anne Garrels, who has been in Iraq throughout the war, “When you hear people in this country, Anne, say, look, the media is only giving the negative side of what’s going on there, why don’t they ever show the good side, what do you tell 'em?”

“I tell them that there isn’t much good to show,” she replied, describing how even military commanders have only bad news to share.

Two weeks ago on CNN, Time’s Michael Ware, who has been covering Iraq for two years, gave an alarming account of being trapped in his Baghdad compound, which is regularly bombed and encircled by “kidnap teams.”

He reported that the U.S. military has “lost control” and that Americans are “the midwives of the next generation of jihad, of the next Al Qaeda.”

At the end of the exchange, anchor Aaron Brown warned, “Other people see the situation there differently than Michael. We talk to them as well.”

The next day, when the interview was repeated, anchor Carol Lin closed with, “And of course there are others who disagree with that.”

Never mind that those others never had Iraqi sand in their shoes, let alone been under fire there.

“Freedom is on the march!” “We’re making progress!” “The terrorists will do all they can to disrupt free elections in Iraq, and they will fail.”

These are just some of the slogans that U.S. President George W. Bush now spouts, while the American cable channels duly carry his speeches live and the American print media give them front-page play.

Not that they aren’t sneaking in a little bad news, mind you. But not much. This week, we learned, mostly via a text crawl at the bottom of the screen, that the milestone of 1,000 U.S. troops killed in combat had been reached.

If you blinked, you would have missed news of a Pentagon “strategic” report to Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld revealing that U.S. actions “have not only failed, they may also have achieved the opposite of what they intended.”

There was a bit in some newspapers about a damning classified cable from the Central Intelligence Agency’s station chief in Baghdad that painted a dismal picture of Iraq’s economic, political and security prospects.

And, while it got notice when published in October, there’s been no follow-up on a study in an esteemed British medical journal suggesting that up to 100,000 civilians had died since the invasion. No follow-up, that is, except to trash the research.

It figures that, on Tuesday in Camp Pendleton, California, all media eyes were on Bush giving a rousing crowd-pleaser, urging “every American to find some way to thank our military and to help out the military family down the street.”

That while yesterday Rumsfeld was in Kuwait, dismissing concerns from troops about a lack of armour. “You go to war with the army you have,” he said.

Want to guess whose comments got better play?

“Biased coverage in Iraq; Bad News Overwhelms The Good,” asserted the Washington Times last week.

“If you trust most media accounts fed to American viewers and readers, Iraq is an unmitigated disaster,” began Helle Dale of the right-wing Heritage Foundation, insisting that “40 per cent of Iraqis say their country is (now) better” and “at least 35 per cent want the United States to stay.”

Dale exhorted readers to check all the wonderful progress being catalogued by the U.S. Agency for International Development (http://www.usaid.gov), which, if you examine carefully, doesn’t contain that much good news at all.

For example, compare and contrast one vaguely-worded USAID report from last spring with another from last week and you’ll see the dirty water situation has not much improved.

Still, Dale claims, “Much of this good work you will never find reported, precisely because no news is good news for much of the U.S. media.”

Well, here’s a positive piece of media news from Iraq: Farnaz Fassihi, the Wall Street Journal reporter whose harrowing private e-mail to friends describing the hazards of Baghdad made international news, is back on the war beat after what many suspected was a month-long suspension. She returns despite vicious criticism from the right that she is too “biased” to work there - just because she felt it was a deadly situation.

But then, what would she know?

She’s just there, in very real danger of getting killed. Stateside, she’s threatened with being shot down, along with other reporters, just for telling the truth.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar%2FLayout%2FArticle_Type1&c=Article&cid=1102547410018

[quote]The Mage wrote:
Anyway, what was the difference? One was the news media where we get our information, and they didn’t just lack bias, but attempted to influence an election. That is not their job, it is to report the news.[/quote]

I’m not sure what you mean by bias - the 60 Minutes story that got bumped was about how the Bush administration KNOWINGLY used phoney information to convince the American people that Iraq was an immediate threat.

I would suggest you read this letter written by Rep Henry Waxman to Pres. Bush BEFORE we went to war with Iraq. Not only was the info forged, it would have only been less obvious if it was done in crayon apparently. Notice too how the CIA never regarded the evidence as credible. Gee, I wonder why the rift?
http://www.house.gov/waxman/text/admin_iraq_march_17_let.htm

The apology doesn’t have quite the same impact when you know they were lying.

[quote]Now as far as the spying incident, I don’t know why some news stories are pulled, while others are not. You can read into it what you like, but often there are reasons nobody knows about. Such as some information too weak to go to “press” with.

Although if you really want information not talked about on television, as related to spying, there is practically no country that does not have spies in this country. That includes Canada. Yes we have Canadian spies here, believe it or not.

Unfortunately this tells us what the truth about the world. Yes we have Israeli spies here, and we have spies in Israel. (And Canada, can’t forget that.)[/quote]

Yes there are other spies from other countries, although I doubt we’re spying on Israel too much since they get all of their technology from us. Also see my response to BB below for more on this subject.

That we do agree on.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

JusttheFacts wrote:
Or how about the Israeli spy investigation involving the Pentagon and AIPAC:
FBI steps up AIPAC probe
"In 2001, the FBI discovered new, [u]“massive” Israeli spying operations in the East Coast, including New York and New Jersey, said one former senior U.S. government official.[/u]

(To be fair I have seen it mentioned on CNN’s scrolling banner once or twice.)

This is the big one though- the 4 part FOX NEWS story that got yanked as soon as it came out in Dec 2001 - (after this it seems FOX took an immediate right)

Transcript part 1 -

Transcript part 2 -

Video part 3 - 3MB
http://www.photographyandartbycarl.com/911/FOXpt3.rm

Video part 4 - 7MB
http://www.photographyandartbycarl.com/911/FOXpt4.wmv

Unfortunately anything with real teeth just somehow gets buried…I remember the good ole’ days when spying on the US was frowned upon.
BostonBarrister wrote:
I heard about this – what sort of teeth does this have? We know our allies spy on us, and I believe we spy on them too. Unless the story alleges stealing of defense secrets or something important, I wouldn’t call this newsworthy. Do we see stories about French agents or British agents or satellites or what have you?[/quote]

Yes our allies spy on us…but how many of our allies are involved in a major spy investigation involving the highest offices in the Pentagon, namely the Office of Special Plans. I’m sure I don’t need to remind you of the Neo Con/Israel connection. But worst of all, since you brought up defense secrets…Israel is the second largest arms supplier to China behind Russia. Guess who China sells weapons to?..Iran, Iraq and Syria. How funny is that? Actually not very.

China’s Missile Imports and Assistance From Israel

China’s missile-related imports and assistance from Israel have been a subject of particular concern in the United States because of worries that Israel may be providing China with “back door” access to controlled, sensitive US technology. For example, in the early 1990s, reports surfaced that Israel had secretly transferred information on the US Patriot missile system to China, in violation of Israel’s promise to the United States not to transfer the Patriot technology to any third country. Although both China and Israel denied the allegations, US government sources concluded that it was almost certain that a transfer of technology (though not physical equipment) had taken place.

China is reportedly using the Patriot technology to improve its surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems and to develop countermeasures against the Patriot for its ballistic and cruise missiles; reports also indicated that China intended to sell these SAMs and enhanced missiles to other countries, possibly including Iran. Reports suggested various Israeli motives for the transfer: some suggested that Israel had traded Patriot information for information on China’s missiles; others asserted that Israel’s transfer of Patriot technology was intended to encourage China to curtail its sales of ballistic missiles to countries in the Middle East such as Syria and Iran.

In addition to the alleged Patriot technology transfer, Israel has allegedly supplied China with cruise missile technology, including sensitive US technology. Specifically, Israel is allegedly assisting China with the development of its YF-12A, YJ-62, and YJ-92 cruise missiles.

In September 1992, responding to US accusations that Israel sold China Patriot missile secrets, Chinese Foreign Minister Qian Qichen denied “that there had been any kind of military cooperation between Israel and China prior to the establishment of diplomatic relations.”

Under U.S. pressure, Israel backed out of a deal with China, potentially valued at 1 billion, in July of 2000. Under the deal, Israel would have outfitted three Chinese Il-76 planes with Phalcon radars. The United States believed the deal would tip the strategic balance against Taiwan. Chinese authorities responded harshly and demanded return of their deposit and compensation. In the Spring of 2002, Israel agreed to pay a reported $300 million to put an end to the dispute over the cancellation.

Since the cancellation of the Phalcon radar deal, Israel has assisted China in other areas including the development of the HQ-9/FT-2000, a surface-to-air missile, which would possibly use U.S. seeker technology. It has also assisted China in the area of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV). In July 2002, China deployed Israeli “Harpy” anti-radar drones in military exercises in Fujian Province.

On 2 January 2003, State Department spokesman Richard Boucher stated that Israeli military exports to China were of concern to the United States. The following day, Israel announced that it would comply with U.S. demands and halt all contracts on the export of arms and security equipment to China. A spokesperson for the Israeli Defense Ministry announced on 8 January that, “Defense relations between Israel and China require from time to time consideration of specific issues. The revision [sic] concluded vis-a-vis China and on concrete issues also vis-a-vis the U.S., bearing in mind American sensitivity.” An Israeli official, electing to remain anonymous, suggested that Israel would continue to sell to China military equipment available on the global arms market. According to the Associate Press, China issued a written statement in response to the Israeli announcement. In the statement, it states that, “It is China’s consistent position that the development of normal military trade cooperation with Israel is a matter between the two countries.”
http://www.nti.org/db/china/imisr.htm

FRIEND TO FRIEND TO FOE
How U.S. Arms Transfers to Israel Come Back to Haunt Both Allies
By Jonathan Reingold

As Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s “Operation Defensive Wall” continues and Secretary of State Colin Powell seeks to cool tensions in the region, Americans need to know how involved they already are in the Middle East.

From 1990 to 2000 U.S. military aid to Israel totaled over $18 billion. No other nation in the world has such a close relationship with the U.S. military and arms industry. Recently, questions have been raised about the extent to which U.S. military aid is abetting human rights abuses by Israeli forces operating on the West Bank. These debates will no doubt continue for some time. In the mean time, however, there is another aspect of the American-Israeli relationship that may have an even greater impact on U.S. and Israeli security in the long run: the ongoing transfer of American arms technology from Israel to potential U.S. (and Israeli) adversaries around the globe.

From the most sophisticated warplanes to tank engines, artillery systems and armored vehicles, the United States is Israel’s one-stop shopping center. Last year alone the U.S. sold one hundred top-of-the-line F-16s to Israel for a total of over $3 billion. That same year Israel purchased 9 of the newest Apache helicopter version equipped with the Longbow Radar system. The helicopter-buying spree didn’t end with the Apaches. Israel bought fifteen Cobra attack helicopters last year along with twenty-four Black Hawk transport helicopters.

Besides selling aircraft, the United States is also Israel’s preferred vendor for missiles. Although Israel has designed its own version of the U.S. air-to-air AIM9 sidewinder missile, the Python 3, it still relies on the U.S. for its ground attack technology. Two years ago Lockheed Martin sold Israel approximately 80 AGM-142D Popeye air-to-surface missiles. Israel also buys the AGM65 Maverick air-to-surface missile produced by Hughes and Raytheon.

In addition, the U.S. sells Israel the engines for its “indigenous” Merkava main battle tank. In 1999 Israel purchased 400 power packs for their Merkava fleet. The Merkava was developed by Israel so that it wouldn’t have to rely on “fickle” countries like Britain, France or Russia when it was in the midst of a conflict.

Transactions between the U.S. and Israel are not necessarily worrisome by themselves; after all, as Israel has proved, there are a host of countries willing to sell the weapons it needs. Currently, Germany is Israel’s source for submarines, and if Israel really needed fighters, Russia is always looking to make a buck and always seems to have a surfeit of aircraft and other excess defense articles.

The real danger comes in Israel’s habit of reverse engineering U.S. technology and selling to nations hostile to U.S. interests. Israel’s client list includes Cambodia, Eritrea, Ethiopia, the South Lebanon Army, India, China, Burma and Zambia. The U.S. has most recently warmed up to India and is now in fact competing with Israel for arms sales there, but the other Israeli customers remain dubious at best.

Perhaps the most troubling of all is the Israeli/Chinese arms relationship. Israel is China’s second largest supplier of arms. Coincidentally, the newest addition to the Chinese air force, the F-10 multi-role fighter, is an almost identical version of the Lavi (Lion). The Lavi was a joint Israeli-American design based upon the F-16 for manufacture in Israel, but financed mostly with American aid. Plagued by cost overruns, it was canceled in 1987, but not before the U.S. spent $1.5 billion on the project.

Last April, when the Navy EP-3E surveillance plane was forced to land in China after a Chinese F-8 fighter flew into its propeller, photos show Israeli built Python 3 missiles under the fighter’s wings.

If Israeli weapons sales to China induce misgivings, including the most recent U.S. blocked sale of Israel’s Phalcon airborne radar, the beneficiaries of Chinese arms transfers of Israeli-American technology are even more disturbing. In 1996, as disclosed in the UN Register of Conventional Arms, China sold over 100 missiles and launchers to Iran, along with a handful of combat aircraft and warships. Even worse, in 1997 the New York Daily News reported that Iraq had deployed Israeli-developed, Chinese PL-8 missiles in the no-fly zones, endangering American pilots.

Americans deserve to know where their money is being spent, and how money allocated for friends and technology shared with friends can all too easily end up in the wrong hands, threatening all parties involved. At a minimum, discussions on a new security framework for the Middle East should include plans to monitor and restrict Israeli transfers of U.S.-origin military equipment to potential adversaries. Otherwise, this deadly technology could come back to haunt U.S. and Israeli forces in future conflicts.
http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/updates/041802.html#II

Spying is a fact of life on enemy and ally alike.

The world’s arms merchants are unregulated and free wheeling. So are the PMF’s or private military forces.

I don’t think there is any question that Israel needs to get reigned in by their largest patron - the US.

Marines “No better friend, no worse enemy”.

From a soldier in Iraq -

December 16, 2004

The Heart of America

Via Seamus, this email is a thank you from a Marine Gunnery Sergeant in Iraq. It was sent two days ago:

Just wanted to write to you and tell you another story about an experience we had over here.
As you know, I asked for toys for the Iraqi children over here and several people (Americans that support us) sent them over by the box. On each patrol we take through the city, we take as many toys as will fit in our pockets and hand them out as we can. The kids take the toys and run to show them off as if they were worth a million bucks. We are as friendly as we can be to everyone we see, but especially so with the kids. Most of them don’t have any idea what is going on and are completely innocent in all of this.
On one such patrol, our lead security vehicle stopped in the middle of the street. This is not normal and is very unsafe, so the following vehicles began to inquire over the radio. The lead vehicle reported a little girl sitting in the road and said she just would not budge. The command vehicle told the lead to simply go around her and to be kind as they did. The street was wide enough to allow this maneuver and so they waved to her as they drove around.
As the vehicles went around her, I soon saw her sitting there and in her arms she was clutching a little bear that we had handed her a few patrols back. Feeling an immediate connection to the girl, I radioed that we were going to stop. The rest of the convoy paused and I got out the make sure she was OK. The little girl looked scared and concerned, but there was a warmth in her eyes toward me. As I knelt down to talk to her, she moved over and pointed to a mine in the road.
Immediately a cordon was set as the Marine convoy assumed a defensive posture around the site. The mine was destroyed in place.
It was the heart of an American that sent that toy. It was the heart of an American that gave that toy to that little girl. It was the heart of an American that protected that convoy from that mine. Sure, she was a little Iraqi girl and she had no knowledge of purple mountain’s majesty or fruited plains. It was a heart of acceptance, of tolerance, of peace and grace, even through the inconveniences of conflict that saved that convoy from hitting that mine. Those attributes are what keep Americans hearts beating. She may have no affiliation at all with the United States, but she knows what it is to be brave and if we can continue to support her and her new government, she will know what it is to be free. Isn’t that what Americans are, the free and the brave?
If you sent over a toy or a Marine (US Service member) you took part in this. You are a reason that Iraq has to believe in a better future. Thank you so much for supporting us and for supporting our cause over here.
Semper Fi,
Mark
GySgt / USMC

-RWN 17 Dec. 2004

OK, you all have your minds made up if you support the war in Iraq or not.

I pose a second question: what would happen if the coaliton forces pulled out of Iraq tomorrow? And do you think the world would be more or less safe as a result?

If they pulled out tomorrow we would finish the job ourselves.

It will be safer when the rest of the middle east see the Iraqi’s voting and they decide to overthrow the tyrants who control them.